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Old 06-12-2022, 11:55 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEujunga View Post
RobS10 has it right. KDSS has no magical ability to reduce nose dive. In essence, it really is “just a sway bar,” but one that is hydraulically actuated. Like any sway bar, the KDSS sway bar works as a torsion spring to resist differential motion between each side of an axle’s suspension. It doesn’t do anything to resist equal motion of both sides, such as during hard braking — mechanically, it can’t. It doesn’t matter how much hydraulic pressure is applied to the piston, or whether the amount is different front to rear. When both sides move equally, all the sway bar can do is passively rotate around its long axis.

KDSS does not have less articulation than other T4R suspensions. If it has less overall travel, it’s only because of limitations imposed by the KDSS design, not because of any action the hydraulic system is taking.
Like I mentioned earlier, everyone on the forum says KDSS does not affect nosedive. In my experience, nosedive is less on a KDSS-equipped 4Runner. There are some auto channels on Youtube that also state that KDSS reduces nosedive. I don't remember all the channels. But I do remember The Car Care Nut (a popular Toyota maintenance channel) explicitly stated that a 4Runner with KDSS has less nose dive than the regular suspension (non x-reas).

Now you can say that the people that are saying this are "just some guys on YouTube." But we are all "just some guys" on an internet forum. The only difference is that the YT guys are putting a face behind their statements. Not saying this gives credibility, but The Car Care Nut really knows his stuff. He is very precise.

EDIT: It is possible that it is not KDSS specifically that is reducing the nose-dive, but just that a KDSS-equipped 4runner has less of it. Why, I do not know. There might be something else on KDSS-equipped 4Runners that is different compared to SR5's suspension.

Last edited by Something_Awesome; 06-13-2022 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 06-13-2022, 12:51 AM #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Something_Awesome View Post

EDIT: It is possible that it is not KDSS specifically that is reducing the nose-dive, but just that a KDSS-equipped 4runner has less of it. Why, I do not know. There might be something else on KDSS-equipped 4Runners that is different compared to SR5's suspension.
Not only possible but probable as looking up parts diagrams the KDSS equipped 4Runners have different shock and spring part numbers then then SR5's . They are listed as for Dynamic suspension and it shows Venture edition have them too. Who knew?

I would bet big bucks they use stiffer springs and the shocks are valved differently. Shocks and springs are what determines the amount of "nose dive" not sway bars.
Most if not all aftermarket suspensions are good at reducing nose dive .
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Last edited by harper7; 06-13-2022 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 06-13-2022, 01:45 PM #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEujunga View Post
RobS10 has it right. KDSS has no magical ability to reduce nose dive. In essence, it really is “just a sway bar,” but one that is hydraulically actuated. Like any sway bar, the KDSS sway bar works as a torsion spring to resist differential motion between each side of an axle’s suspension. It doesn’t do anything to resist equal motion of both sides, such as during hard braking — mechanically, it can’t. It doesn’t matter how much hydraulic pressure is applied to the piston, or whether the amount is different front to rear. When both sides move equally, all the sway bar can do is passively rotate around its long axis.

KDSS does not have less articulation than other T4R suspensions. If it has less overall travel, it’s only because of limitations imposed by the KDSS design, not because of any action the hydraulic system is taking.

Now if you brake in a turn, or brake descending a hill on an angle, the “dive” will be asymmetrical and then KDSS will have something to do.


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Old 06-15-2022, 10:26 AM #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovmiowa View Post
Hi all, Our local Toyota dealer quoted me $10,000 to fix the KDSS system on my 2010 4R Trail, with 220K miles. The KDSS light comes on now and then, and they said it was very rusty (salty upper Midwest roads) and leaking slightly from the unit. The $10K is to replace the unit and all four lines. Does this sound right to you? Many thanks for sharing your insights!!
I do most of the repairs on my rig but for fun I recently called my local Toyota dealer to get an estimate for LABOR ONLY for the following:

- install brake pads - all around
- install rotors - all around
- install front CV axles

The total time it took me to replace the above items was 2 hours total and that is me working by myself on the ground with jack stands and manual wrenches.

Toyota said it was an 8 hour job and quoted me $1,200 for labor only.

I get that some things we have to take into the dealership but it's clear the dealers are straight up lying and ripping people off.
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Old 06-15-2022, 01:42 PM #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 78-FJ40 View Post
I do most of the repairs on my rig but for fun I recently called my local Toyota dealer to get an estimate for LABOR ONLY for the following:

- install brake pads - all around
- install rotors - all around
- install front CV axles

The total time it took me to replace the above items was 2 hours total and that is me working by myself on the ground with jack stands and manual wrenches.

Toyota said it was an 8 hour job and quoted me $1,200 for labor only.

I get that some things we have to take into the dealership but it's clear the dealers are straight up lying and ripping people off.

That sounds more like an issue with Toyota and what they set as the labor hours in the book.


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Old 06-15-2022, 04:17 PM #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 78-FJ40 View Post
I do most of the repairs on my rig but for fun I recently called my local Toyota dealer to get an estimate for LABOR ONLY for the following:

- install brake pads - all around
- install rotors - all around
- install front CV axles

The total time it took me to replace the above items was 2 hours total and that is me working by myself on the ground with jack stands and manual wrenches.

Toyota said it was an 8 hour job and quoted me $1,200 for labor only.

I get that some things we have to take into the dealership but it's clear the dealers are straight up lying and ripping people off.
That seems about twice what it should have been quoted. I would probably have quoted about 4-6hrs, mainly because brakes are a set 1.5hrs even if we're swapping rotors, but there is technically a small amount of overlap with doing the CV Axles (though really, it's really just taking off the wheel...). I believe book time for just R&R an axle is something like 1.5~2hrs, depending on the non-warranty flat-rate book you're going by. So I would just do closer to 6hrs if the vehicle is crusty and rusted (also would include axle seal replacement of it's a higher mileage vehicle), but if it's relatively good condition I would just go with like 4 or 4.5hrs for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbm112 View Post
That sounds more like an issue with Toyota and what they set as the labor hours in the book.


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Not really, Toyota's flat rate manual is for warranty work and it pays on average garbage. Most shops are either doing a straight 1.5 * [Warranty Time] or using a company like Mitchell or Identifix to set labor times off their flat rate books.

You guys are kind of misunderstanding how flat rate works, which is understandable.
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Old 10-28-2022, 06:10 PM #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovmiowa View Post
Hi all, Our local Toyota dealer quoted me $10,000 to fix the KDSS system on my 2010 4R Trail, with 220K miles. The KDSS light comes on now and then, and they said it was very rusty (salty upper Midwest roads) and leaking slightly from the unit. The $10K is to replace the unit and all four lines. Does this sound right to you? Many thanks for sharing your insights!!

Unfortunately, the price seems to be in the ballpark. My assumption is that Toyota inherited the system from Lexus, so the parts are absurdly expensive, and the hydraulic fluid bleed/recharge/whatever makes it a labor intensive repair.

My 2015 Trail is at a dealer in Long Beach CA to replace a leaking rear KDSS cylinder. $2,450

I don't have the paperwork yet, but this is the breakdown he gave me over the phone:

Cylinder: $1,200
Hydraulic fluid: $150
Labor: $975
Tax: $137


The service sales reps I've spoken with clearly have no idea what KDSS is, so I'm about to find out if one of their mechanics can get the job done.

Last edited by LACA11; 10-28-2022 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 10-28-2022, 08:41 PM #83
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Toyota inherited the system from Lexus...

That's interesting. I get that (technically) Lexus has an independent design/engineering team but I can't imagine they get to do whatever the hell they want without Toyota's blessing and/or approval.
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Old 10-29-2022, 07:13 PM #84
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KDSS Repair Update:

The Toyota dealer apparently replaced the leaking cylinder, but after a full day of attempting to use their "manual" tools, they were unable to bleed / repressurize / whatever the KDSS system. Seems pretty clear at this point that they've never done a KDSS repair before.

The service rep said they've ordered the "machine" to bleed / repressurize / whatever the hydraulic system. It's going to take 2-3 days for them to receive it, so they've given me a rental.

The cautionary tales about KDSS repairs and dealers not knowing how to repair KDSS all seem accurate so far.

I assume they'll figure it out eventually, but I'm their first guinea pig. Pretty sure they've far exceeded the time allocated for their $975 labor charge.
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Old 10-30-2022, 03:56 AM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LACA11 View Post
KDSS Repair Update:

The Toyota dealer apparently replaced the leaking cylinder, but after a full day of attempting to use their "manual" tools, they were unable to bleed / repressurize / whatever the KDSS system. Seems pretty clear at this point that they've never done a KDSS repair before.

The service rep said they've ordered the "machine" to bleed / repressurize / whatever the hydraulic system. It's going to take 2-3 days for them to receive it, so they've given me a rental.

The cautionary tales about KDSS repairs and dealers not knowing how to repair KDSS all seem accurate so far.

I assume they'll figure it out eventually, but I'm their first guinea pig. Pretty sure they've far exceeded the time allocated for their $975 labor charge.
Well just make sure they don't exceed the quoted price for labor just because they didn't bother to borrow a SST for the KDSS system prior to working on your vehicle. There is no way to "manually" pressurize the system without the assistance of some form of hydraulic pump. I've read the procedure on TIS and pressurizing the system seems pretty straight forward as long as all the components still work properly. Any qualified tech should be able to follow the procedure laid out in TIS. Once they depressurized the system, replacing the component would of been simple, so pressurizing the system with the proper tools should be the "hardest" part.
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