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Old 02-15-2023, 03:33 PM #31
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Originally Posted by CutthroatSlam View Post
Yes it's the 6.5 turbo diesel in a 1999 K2500 Suburban.

School bus rescue - YouTube
with a kinetic rope you would have made easy work out of that bus. hopefully there were no kids on the bus, didn't look like it to me. who's at fault if the bus tips over and kids get hurt? recovering people from a snowbank is one of those things that if someone wants or asks you to do for them you should be removed of all liability to their vehicle damanges. I don't think I'd risk a school bus with kids in it though without specific insurance. had someone stuck in a snowbank near my house, honda civic drove off the road but not in a ditch. I was going to offer them a tow but instead decided to offer to help shovel them out - when I went back they were gone...
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Old 02-15-2023, 04:39 PM #32
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Talking

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Originally Posted by CutthroatSlam View Post
We’re not going 60 mph in snow or ice conditions.

Here’s a pic of an AWD Subaru that went off the road on the inside of the curve at the bottom of our Montana property. You can see what happened from their tire tracks. They came down the hill with too much speed to make the curve. They let off the gas and with the all wheels connected to the drivetrain, they started to slide. Then they got back on the gas and immediately shot into the ditch on the inside of the curve. This is what happens when people get in over their head because they believe their car has hero status with the AWD.
Nice pic. I like you, apparently drive slow in the snow and ice. But you gotta admit if you go out on the highway theres plenty of people zipping by in heavy snow and ice at 60mph.

I am not sure why your cracking so hard on the Limited. I have two of them. ONe is totally stock, the other quite modded and likely can outperform most base SR5s easily off road at this point.

I have dragged a few people out of the ditch in the last few years. One was a jeep on MTs.. others were the usual CUV on all seasons...

Not sure where you are in Montana, but Ive been shopping for land up near Eureka and Rexford. You have a fantastic state you live in. I already bought my Montana state flag, its hanging behind me.
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Old 02-15-2023, 08:25 PM #33
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The leather in the limited is synthetic and easily as durable if not more durable than the cloth. This is documented by many users with dogs and more than a decade and 100k+ miles of use.

The whole argument on limited 4WD is just plain stupid. In “normal” setting, limited provides better traction than RWD. In 4Hi and 4 Lo it is identical to every other trim with 4WD. Locking and limited slip front and/or rear axle can improve over the limited setup.

However, unless you use your 4Runner in the most extreme scenarios, the comparisons being made become minute enough that wearing the correct tires is far more significant.

To the OP - you never disclosed why you want to remove your XREAS. If it hasn’t failed and you aren’t dying for a lift, I wouldn’t do anything. If it has failed, you have endless options covering all variables of cost, lift, ride quality, durability, and so on.

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Old 02-16-2023, 01:19 AM #34
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Originally Posted by aggrobot View Post
Beat me to it. While the torsen (literally short for torque-sensing) can adapt very quickly to adjust from 40:60, 30:70, to even 53:47 front: rear distribution, its still mechanical, and its still sending this to open diffs on each axel. Dont get me wrong, the shifting in power is hugely beneficial for traction in adverse conditions, but it is inferior to a true AWD system.

I am confused. If our limited awd isn’t really awd then what are the Audi Quattros that have been using torsen center diffs since the 90s? What is your definition of ‘true awd’???


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Old 02-16-2023, 01:30 AM #35
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Originally Posted by CutthroatSlam View Post
I have never had leather last more than 10 years in any car. Honda’s leather is especially poor. Mercedes leather was better.

I don’t have assless chaps, never will. Not a member of the Brokeback Mountain Club.
I realize I've been allowing myself to be triggered by you showing up a thread clearly about Limited trims and throwing around comments like "it's a cuv" and borderline slurs re: leather. Not sure why you've joined this thread, but you're not helping the OP. I'm guessing you're just a) trolling and b) justifying your purchase. You're right, you've bought the best and only real 4runner. You are amazing, and a fairly effective troll. We're idiots and not real men. Cheers.
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Old 02-16-2023, 10:52 AM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiles_s View Post
I am confused. If our limited awd isn’t really awd then what are the Audi Quattros that have been using torsen center diffs since the 90s? What is your definition of ‘true awd’???


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I think the minutia here is that there are different AWD systems. the 4runner gets a torsen center differential. it's AWD system (pardon me, full time 4WD system) is like the land cruiser with low range and a locking differential (4HI and 4LO). This is different from say the Rav 4's AWD system, with the 4runner system being much more capable for tougher terrain. AWD seems to be a blanket term and only in the off-roading communities do people get their jimmies rustled when the terms are used interchangeably

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Originally Posted by stiles_s View Post
I realize I've been allowing myself to be triggered by you showing up a thread clearly about Limited trims and throwing around comments like "it's a cuv" and borderline slurs re: leather. Not sure why you've joined this thread, but you're not helping the OP. I'm guessing you're just a) trolling and b) justifying your purchase. You're right, you've bought the best and only real 4runner. You are amazing, and a fairly effective troll. We're idiots and not real men. Cheers.
he's trolling lol
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Old 02-16-2023, 12:18 PM #37
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Nice pic. I like you, apparently drive slow in the snow and ice. But you gotta admit if you go out on the highway theres plenty of people zipping by in heavy snow and ice at 60mph.

I am not sure why your cracking so hard on the Limited. I have two of them. ONe is totally stock, the other quite modded and likely can outperform most base SR5s easily off road at this point.

I have dragged a few people out of the ditch in the last few years. One was a jeep on MTs.. others were the usual CUV on all seasons...

Not sure where you are in Montana, but Ive been shopping for land up near Eureka and Rexford. You have a fantastic state you live in. I already bought my Montana state flag, its hanging behind me.
We are in Stevensville, which is about 20 miles south of Missoula down in the Bitterroot Valley.

My main knock on Limited is the XREAS. Based on what I’ve read, it’s really a suspension mod for on-road and highway driving. Never had it, so I can’t tell you if it offers much value over the stock suspension. I do know, based on anecdotal reads here, that it is prone to going out and is expensive to repair, so most convert back to stock. Some have posted that it goes 150K miles and that is what they expect to hold the car for. We’ve got 322K miles on a 2014 SR5, so we use the car much longer than the life expectancy of XREAS.

Some here worry about body roll in curves at high speed, thus see value in the KDSS or the XREAS. We did not buy a 4Runner to hit curves at high speed. You buy a sports car for that. SUVs like my Suburban and the 4Runner are good at going straight and going off-road, which is why I own them.
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Old 02-16-2023, 12:32 PM #38
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Originally Posted by stiles_s View Post
I am confused. If our limited awd isn’t really awd then what are the Audi Quattros that have been using torsen center diffs since the 90s? What is your definition of ‘true awd’???


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In my previous posts, I define “true AWD,” but admittedly, I’m a rambler. I define “true AWD” as a system in which power is delivered to all wheels, simultaneously, - including low-grip conditions.

On a traditional 4wd system, power is sent to all 4 wheels simultaneously until traction is compromised. At which point, power will be delivered to the wheel with the least amount of resistance (ie, spinning the wheel with no traction). This is how the limited behaves, with the major exception being it can dynamically send power to the AXEL with more grip. Its kind of a hallway-mark bridging the two systems.

Regarding your question about Audis and the center diff: the center diff is only one component of the whole. The limited’s center diff is sending power to two open diff axels. I’ve summarized the distinction between the two behaviors above. I hope this helps.
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Old 02-16-2023, 02:06 PM #39
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Originally Posted by CutthroatSlam View Post
We are in Stevensville, which is about 20 miles south of Missoula down in the Bitterroot Valley.

My main knock on Limited is the XREAS. Based on what I’ve read, it’s really a suspension mod for on-road and highway driving. Never had it, so I can’t tell you if it offers much value over the stock suspension. I do know, based on anecdotal reads here, that it is prone to going out and is expensive to repair, so most convert back to stock. Some have posted that it goes 150K miles and that is what they expect to hold the car for. We’ve got 322K miles on a 2014 SR5, so we use the car much longer than the life expectancy of XREAS.

Some here worry about body roll in curves at high speed, thus see value in the KDSS or the XREAS. We did not buy a 4Runner to hit curves at high speed. You buy a sports car for that. SUVs like my Suburban and the 4Runner are good at going straight and going off-road, which is why I own them.
The XREAS is a weird system. On super smooth highway it rides like glass..very smooth. On even the smallest expansion joint or tar ripple its like riding over a brick. Harsher off road oddly slightly better. That said replacing it witht the kings turned up high still yields and overall far more comfortable and controlled ride. When i drive my other Limited that still has XREAS the tar strip small bump thing drives me nuts.. if you had to drive it everyday its less noticeable but still a good enough reason to replace a system that is known to leak.

Agreed on the speed stuff, I prefer driving it like the bus it is.. this makes me happy. Im done driving turbo german sleds that go over 160mph. Getting to old for the speed

I looked at some places down in the Bitterroot, very nice area! I think I like the area backing into the Kootenai national forest the best. No bag limit on Moutain lion. Sure would be nice to shoot a few dozen and eat them.
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Old 02-16-2023, 02:14 PM #40
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In my previous posts, I define “true AWD,” but admittedly, I’m a rambler. I define “true AWD” as a system in which power is delivered to all wheels, simultaneously, - including low-grip conditions.

On a traditional 4wd system, power is sent to all 4 wheels simultaneously until traction is compromised. At which point, power will be delivered to the wheel with the least amount of resistance (ie, spinning the wheel with no traction). This is how the limited behaves, with the major exception being it can dynamically send power to the AXEL with more grip. Its kind of a hallway-mark bridging the two systems.

Regarding your question about Audis and the center diff: the center diff is only one component of the whole. The limited’s center diff is sending power to two open diff axels. I’ve summarized the distinction between the two behaviors above. I hope this helps.
Ah, OK. I think I'm following. So in your definition AWD is:
- Center diff of some kind that is always sending power to front and rear through either a viscous or torsen or computer-controlled (e.g Haldex) system
- front and rear axles must have limited slip? Or, is it enough that if they are open diffs that they have brake/abs driven systems that will brake the slipping wheel and drive power to the other wheel on that axle? This is super common. It's what VW, Audi, Subaru and I think even our 4runners use if they don't have a true mechanical limited slip? Again, we're probably splitting hairs but even "axles" without a true clutch or torsen limited slip can approximate it pretty well with the single-wheel-braking system that many use.

Regardless: One of the key reasons I went from an ORP to a Limited was the full time AWD (or whatever you want to call it). For my use case (YMMV), I spend a decent amount of time driving at speed in hard rain, scattered icy conditions, some snow/slush. Along with some driving on grass slopes. The ORP frankly sucked at this compared by my previous GX470. No, I'm not going to look ahead, see the hydroplaning risk, or the ice, and shift into 4wd. Nor did I want to shift into 4wd any time I was on a grassy slope, or a launching ramp. I just want the truck to have great traction all the time. To be a freight train in these conditions (of course with the right tires). The Limited does this. As did the GX, and as have a few of our old Audis. The feeling of control with these Torsen systems is really amazing. FWIW it's far better than any viscous/computer-controlled AWD setup I've owned. Including Subaru, our Macan, our old Honda Pilot. The "sense slip then react" can be really unnerving in some situations. The Torsen applies torque to both axles *all the time*.

Cheers. I hope the OP got their XREAS removed successfully. I think I'm probably 5 years from needing to worry about it at the rate I'm driving. And, for my use, with ORP 17s on it and recommended tire pressure, it rides pretty well. It doesn't ride as well as my old ORP but it handles much better on the road.
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Old 02-16-2023, 02:19 PM #41
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The XREAS is a weird system. On super smooth highway it rides like glass..very smooth. On even the smallest expansion joint or tar ripple its like riding over a brick. Harsher off road oddly slightly better. That said replacing it witht the kings turned up high still yields and overall far more comfortable and controlled ride. When i drive my other Limited that still has XREAS the tar strip small bump thing drives me nuts.. if you had to drive it everyday its less noticeable but still a good enough reason to replace a system that is known to leak.

Agreed on the speed stuff, I prefer driving it like the bus it is.. this makes me happy. Im done driving turbo german sleds that go over 160mph. Getting to old for the speed

I looked at some places down in the Bitterroot, very nice area! I think I like the area backing into the Kootenai national forest the best. No bag limit on Moutain lion. Sure would be nice to shoot a few dozen and eat them.
We got mountain lions and wolves down here. Also had a couple grizzlies last fall about 7 miles west from us in Florence, but they trapped and moved them about 5 miles east of us. They’ll be back.

The fishing and hunting is outstanding. The scenery is drop dead gorgeous. Unfortunately, I have 3 years until retirement and my employer called me back to the LA office on a 2-day a week hybrid schedule. So I am back at our home in Fullerton, CA at the moment. My retired wife will be back and forth and is leaving me next week for the great white north.
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Old 02-16-2023, 02:35 PM #42
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Ah, OK. I think I'm following. So in your definition AWD is:
- Center diff of some kind that is always sending power to front and rear through either a viscous or torsen or computer-controlled (e.g Haldex) system
- front and rear axles must have limited slip? Or, is it enough that if they are open diffs that they have brake/abs driven systems that will brake the slipping wheel and drive power to the other wheel on that axle? This is super common. It's what VW, Audi, Subaru and I think even our 4runners use if they don't have a true mechanical limited slip? Again, we're probably splitting hairs but even "axles" without a true clutch or torsen limited slip can approximate it pretty well with the single-wheel-braking system that many use.

Regardless: One of the key reasons I went from an ORP to a Limited was the full time AWD (or whatever you want to call it). For my use case (YMMV), I spend a decent amount of time driving at speed in hard rain, scattered icy conditions, some snow/slush. Along with some driving on grass slopes. The ORP frankly sucked at this compared by my previous GX470. No, I'm not going to look ahead, see the hydroplaning risk, or the ice, and shift into 4wd. Nor did I want to shift into 4wd any time I was on a grassy slope, or a launching ramp. I just want the truck to have great traction all the time. To be a freight train in these conditions (of course with the right tires). The Limited does this. As did the GX, and as have a few of our old Audis. The feeling of control with these Torsen systems is really amazing. FWIW it's far better than any viscous/computer-controlled AWD setup I've owned. Including Subaru, our Macan, our old Honda Pilot. The "sense slip then react" can be really unnerving in some situations. The Torsen applies torque to both axles *all the time*.
Would you do me the solid of replying to the new thread I made on this, please? I feel bad for derailing the OPs initial question. Id love to continue our conversation there: Limited, Full-Time 4WD vs AWD Differences

If not, I’ll drop back and reply to your comments here. My thanks to you and @Humble Leader for your time and conversation on this.
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Old 02-16-2023, 02:48 PM #43
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We got mountain lions and wolves down here. Also had a couple grizzlies last fall about 7 miles west from us in Florence, but they trapped and moved them about 5 miles east of us. They’ll be back.

The fishing and hunting is outstanding. The scenery is drop dead gorgeous. Unfortunately, I have 3 years until retirement and my employer called me back to the LA office on a 2-day a week hybrid schedule. So I am back at our home in Fullerton, CA at the moment. My retired wife will be back and forth and is leaving me next week for the great white north.
are those stars in the sky? they look huge. maybe they're chinese weather balloons

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Would you do me the solid of replying to the new thread I made on this, please? I feel bad for derailing the OPs initial question. Id love to continue our conversation there: Limited, Full-Time 4WD vs AWD Differences

If not, I’ll drop back and reply to your comments here. My thanks to you and @Humble Leader for your time and conversation on this.
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Old 02-16-2023, 05:26 PM #44
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are those stars in the sky? they look huge. maybe they're chinese weather balloons



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Yes those are stars. I went out to check for the comet, but it was a bright moon lit night which made it impossible to see the comet, so I took pics of the home and the Bitterroot range instead.

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