You 5th Gen hawks are slacking! I have to agree with The Critic's comments quoted from BITOG. Your thoughts if this is true guys?







Link to BITOG thread

I don't think it's a problem, as long as owners realize that the 10,000 mile drain interval is for synthetic oil only. If they choose to use regular dino oil instead, they have to make sure that they don't follow the 10,000 mile drain interval.

There must be a time limit also. My 03 only has 43K miles so that would only have been 4 oil changes in 6 years. Not good.

The current OCI is 5K/6mo so I would imagine they will come out with something similar like 10K/12mo or 10K/XXmo. 10K/12mo is about the limit for even the best Grp 4/5 synthetics imo for pure city driving. I wouldnt even push it that far without a UOA to make sure the oil can handle it. This "official looking" paper does specify for normal driving conditions, that is their out in case of a mass oil related warranty issue I would assume. They could classify anything they want including city/stop and go driving as severe conditions, I personally think they are. My beef isnt so much with the oil itself going 10K, thats pretty easy for a good oil. But with the filter, OEM filters are fine for run of the mill 5K/6mo OCI, but when you jump into 10k that is a little more than Im willing to go on a Toyo filter, just my feelings.

But all in all, Im pleased to see more car manufacturers stretching out the OCI like this. The 3K/3Mo is pretty much gone now in favor of 5K/6Mo or 7.5K/6Mo which is great. You could even run a top tier dino oil like Mobil Clean 5000/7500 at these OCI's without a problem. Most syns have listed for some time that they meet the European ACEA specs for extended drains, but they dont advertise that fact in plain english to - in my opinion- play along with abnormally short OCI's which I think is BS on their part. Only recently (excluding oils like Amsoil which were made for this all along) with the advent of M1 EP and Edge have oils been marketed specifically for extended drain intervals.

I saw those same service guides on the service advisor's desk during a recent visit to the dealer for maintenance so I think it's the correct info.

If you want a real unbiased opinion, ask the oil companies. They will tell you that whether you use syn or dino the various additives begin to break down at around 2k miles. That is why they recommend changing every 3k miles. The additives need a recharge at that point. The oil is fine, but the detergents, etc need to be rejuvenated. Do not kid yourself. Oil is cheap. Rebuilds are not. I believe Nissan recommends dino oil in their engines, some of the best engines made. I remember when Volvo recommended 7500mi oil changes in the mid 70s. Mechanics said no way. Guess things haven't changed too much. Engine tolerances are better, but the fuel we get is pure junk diesel excepting.

You cant be serious? Ask the oil companies for an "unbiased opinion"? Im sure someone who stands to profit 2 or 3 times as much by saying you have to change oil @ 3K is unbiased. Do you have any evidence or testing to confirm that the add pack depletes after only 2K? That is absolute lunacy! This isnt the 60's or 70's base oil and add pack technology has improved along with manned space flight and computers. Analysis has shown that even Wal Mart brand dino oil is good to 5K! Have you done a used oil analysis to determine the levels of the add pack remaining after a given OCI? I recently saw a UOA of Mobil 1 EP from a Sequoia that was run for almost 16,000 (!!!) city miles and it was a great report. Wear metals were low for the mileage and the oil was in good enough shape to keep going! You mentioned rebuild, do you have any evidence of engine failure due to long oil change intervals? I bet you cant find more than 1%. Failures due to being driven by bimbos leading to improper oil level need not apply.

And btw I used to run Syntec in my Nissan 350Z for 7500 hard miles at a time and my analysis showed I could go 10K without a care in the world.

ETA: If what you posted was your honest opinion, than I invite you to check out bobistheoilguy.com, more info on oils you could not ask for.

Absolutely wrong advice. Sorry. You need to read more on the topic. For starters, you need to read this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=674

Unbiased opinion? The oil companies sell oil. I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you that you should change your oil every 1,000 miles if they thought they could convince you to do it.

Didn't mean to strike a nerve here. I know some of you have an overriding desire to be right all the time and that is fine. I will read the thread recommended by Thai. The unbiased opinion was tongue in cheek folks. Lighten up. I do know that I have changed oil in my 99 SR5 every 3k mi since new. It has 107k on it now. The old oil has been dark ever since about the 15K mi oil change. That dirt/carbon in suspension is not a lubricant. No science will tell me otherwise. Too many mechanics have said change it every 3-5k miles. I stand by my original claim that oil is cheap and rebuilds are expensive. In the 30+ cars I have owned over the years I never had to do a rebuild. I change the oil.

I did work for an oil company, and their studies did confirm the breakdown of additives at 2k miles. I would not expect their recommendations to be unbiased as they do sell oil. By the same token auto companies sell cars. If you need a new car b/c you did not maintain, they are happy to sell you a new one.

I apologize. I did not want to start this age old argument on this forum. Instead I will return to lurk mode and leave things to the pontiffs.

A followup. I did read the thread Thai recommended and I have trouble concluding that my advice was bad. Seems opinions are all over the place.

A clarification. Some oil additives begin to breakdown at 2K mi. The keyword may be begin. The additives are still effective, just less so. I do not know when the breakdown is complete or even 50% complete. It also will vary for each type of additive.

I can see stretching the oil change interval to 5K mi. In fact I do that on my Duramax diesel rationalizing 2.5 gal of oil should last longer than 6 qt in my 4Runner. OTOH I change it at least every 200 mi in my KTM 4 strokes. Crankcase capacity is 1 L on one and 600ML on the other.

I have the same line of thinking.... oil changes are cheap for sure, compared to the price of a new engine or an engine rebuild. BUT, to say that changing oil every 4,000 or 5,000 miles (or more) instead of every 3,000 miles will result in a future engine rebuild is just speculation. Oil technology and engine technology has improved over the last 50 years, there's simply no denying that fact. You may trust mechanics, but I think the engineers who designed the engines know a little bit more than the mechanics who repair them. Besides, car companies have a vested interest in building cars that will last. Imagine what would happen if a car company recommended, say, 7500-mile oil changes and down the road the majority of those vehicles needed premature rebuilds because of the recommended maintenance schedule? That would be a disaster for ANY auto company.

There's another side to this debate that you must consider--- the environmental factors. IF it is true that changing oil at 3,000 miles is unnecessary, then people who continue to change it at 3,000 miles are unnecessarily adding waste oil to the environment and wasting that resource. I know it's hard to let go of old ideals, but I've even decided to stretch my oil change intervals because I'm quite certain that 3,000 miles between oil changes is too frequent for a modern engine using modern oils.

If you really want to be blown away by the changes in oil technology, just look up the SAE oil ratings (SJ, for example) to see the history of changes that have been made for each revision. Today's oil is very different from the oil that we used just a few years ago.

I'm not a pontificator nor am I related to the oil companies, nor do I kiss butt anywhere in business or on this forum so I'll take a crack at your statement.

In the many vehicles I've owned, and the ones where I began to use full synthetic engine oil, I've never suffered a single engine failure as I change the oil routinely at 7500 Miles or six months.

Many of the fleet trucks I've had for business, we've gone to extended drain intervals of 15,000 plus miles using synthetic and never have had an oil-related engine problem.

Changing oil at 3000 miles is a waste of time, money and oil. Engines are built a lot better these days and so are the oils that go in 'em.

In the motorcycles I've had (eight), I never had an oil related engine problem and in the eighteen year old Toro lawn mower, been running on full synthetic since year two and putting the mower through its paces, hard work... and changing the oil one time per season, have never had an oil related engine problem.

You're entitled to your opinion and the money you spend on oil changes is yours as well.

Maybe if everyone moved their oil changes to 7500 miles or what the factory recommends, we'd also save a lot of money in oil imports and potential oil pollution due to improper waste.

You had your .02 and I've had mine.

No sweat bluebullet, its not really about being smart or right, but realizing how far weve come and embracing new technologies. While long oil changes are getting more mainstream these days there was a time not too long ago you were thought insane for changing oil at 15K miles. Not unlike flying or going into space, thought impossible or suicidal at the time, after research, testing, and experience its a fairly mundane task at present. Warranty concerns aside.


I would agree and go even further and say that the add pack begins to breakdown within as little as 1K mi depending on the oil. But that breakdown is not linear, meaning it wont start at 10 and just go straight down to 0 in 5K miles. It will start at 10 then drop to 6 after 2K mi then by the time you reach 5K it will be at 4.

All things considered it would be quite foolhardy to throw in some syn oil and think you can make it 15K without changing it. That is why a used oil analysis is such a useful tool when determining how long to extend your oil changes by analyzing the condition of the oil after X miles. Im sure that Toyota in this case has done just that, in addition to tear downs and many other forensic analysis. The size of the sump has little to do with it as well, as Hondas have small sumps and are OE spec'd to go 7500 miles.

Something I find interesting is that the 3K/3mo oil change is "cheap insurance" in this country but we spend extra billions of dollars, generate excess waste, and waste way too much time. Thats hardly cheap, European cars have had OCI of 10K mi +, and rarely (if ever?) have oil related engine failures.

I was recently having this discussion with my friend who thinks Im nuts for going even 10K on oil, and I wanted to compare it to something that was easy to visualize and was a similar consumable item. Tires! What if the "American Tire Institute" or OEM recommended changing your tires every 15K miles? A tire with 15K miles on it is no better than a tire with 20K, and plenty of people measure their tires and go, hell up to 80K depending on the tire. You could say that you changed your tires every 15K mi for 100K mi and everytime you change them they are more worn down then when you installed them, but what did you really gain over the guy going 80K on 1 set of tires? So as long as you are aware of the condition of the tires (or the oil) you could use them until they were no longer safe (or offering protection).

Sorry for the long winded reply. I used to be firmly in the 3K/3mo camp and got sucked in over at BITOG and havent been the same since.

Here's the article:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

Interesting reading.

Their conclusion is similar to what I recommend:

"Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources."