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Old 04-22-2020, 01:34 PM #31
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Originally Posted by Mikey2020 View Post
Jeep Grand Cherokee has a unibody, and the Trailhawk version is a legit offroader. I think the situation you outlined is so rare and unlikely to ever happen.

Of course the Jeep Grand Cherokee may not make it thru the trail course, but only due to it breaking down on account of it just being a Chrysler product. Major transmission issues are common on the Jeep Grand Cherokee
All the Land Rovers and IRS Jeep products lift their wheels on even the most gentle trails because of the independent suspension in all of the corners and have a bunch of electronic doo-dads to counteract this because a unit body or hybrid frame tends to be better on road where they are used 99% of the time. It makes you think you're doing heroic shit when you're just riding over bumps.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:12 PM #32
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Has anyone entertained the idea or possibility that a PRIME edition could be in the works? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if indeed a hybrid version seems to be in the cards (I'm fine with that). The soon to be released (if not already) PRIME RAV4 just makes my mouth water............. nevermind the long term ownership costs/maintenance (replacement battery, tranny, etc etc).
I really hope there is a prime version. Lots of potential. Power your camp with the battery. Use the generator for more power at camp. Deep water crossing? no problem. Run on EV only.

Whenever pricing on the RAV4 Prime comes out it'll determine whether it's going to be on the short list for my wife's new car if they don't have a RX prime version soon. It checks all my boxes for a commuter/road tripper/family SUV. 303hp. Mostly EV driving locally. 700 mile highway range. I don't think that's likely in a 4Runner unless the samsung/toyota battery program actually turns into a commercial option quickly with the solid state batteries they claim to have developed. Supposedly they're 9.5 times as energy dense as the current lithium battery packs. So the same physical size/weight battery in a Prius Prime would be closer to 100kwh. That makes a 4Runner Prime not only possible, but very realistic. I think 30-40 miles of EV range will require about 25kwh of battery. That's a pretty big package to fit well in a 4Runner.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:58 PM #33
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Originally Posted by Mikey2020 View Post
IMO people make a huge deal on the whole body on frame thing, but honestly it isn't nessacery to have that and still get all the off-road chops people desire. BOF is important for trucks, with beds that require big payloads, not as important for an SUV. I for one am fine is they go to unibody, and I know this is an unpopular opinion, but would maybe prefer it.
The BOF thing is important in the context of a utility vehicle. Mainly for having somewhere to bolt to that's robust. It's certainly possible to do with a unibody as well, but typical unibodies aren't really designed to handle external forces well. For example I have a snow plow I use all winter on my 4Runner. I've yet to see a viable way to put a snow plow on most unibody SUVs. A tube frame UTV is a unibody in a sense and they have some ways to do it. It's not impossible, but it's really uncommon.

The other consideration is that unibody doesn't necessarily have any weight advantage. Compare a Tacoma to a Ridgeline. The Ridgeline is heavier. The Highlander is around 400lbs lighter than a 4Runner. But they're nearly identical in size. All you need to do is correct for the difference in wheels/tires, axles, and the transfer case, and they're damn near identical in weight. The unibody design has advantages in interior layout, but it really doesn't do much or anything meaningful for weight savings. The 2020 Land Rover Defender weights more than the 4Runner. And it's mostly aluminum. The Jeep GC weights the same as a 4Runner.

Solid axles have significant advantages in terms of load distribution. This is a copy of my post in another thread that probably helps explain it a bit:

In a simple scenario where you have a 72" track width and springs with a constant rate mounted inboard at 48" width (1 foot in from each WMS), and a spring rate of 200lb/in and the axle is bearing the weight of 2500lb. On a level surface each tire is loaded with 1,250lb of weight.

Now let's assume an obstacle where frame remains level and one tire is on top of a 12" rock. So the axle system will be put at a 9.56* angle.

With a solid axle modeled as a continuous beam with two point loads (springs) and supported ends (tires) the force on the tire displaced upward will be 1783lb and the force on the down side will be 717 lbs. (The springs will be displaced 4" up on one side and 4" down on the other, but that does not calculate the ground force distribution which will be a more complex, but not terribly complex, beam with asymmetrical point loads).

With independent suspension modeled as two independent systems attached to the frame without a cross suspension link (like KDSS) the force on the upper tire will be 2450lb and the lower tire will be 50lb.



For me and my use as both an offroad adventure vehicle and a daily driver, I think the compromise of IFS and solid rear axle is ideal. I would prefer that over either solid front and rear axles or IFS/IRS. It's the balance that best fits my use. So for me the new bronco is just right in that respect. I want a truck with extra seats moreso than a car with big tires.

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Old 04-24-2020, 05:38 PM #34
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The other consideration is that unibody doesn't necessarily have any weight advantage. Compare a Tacoma to a Ridgeline. The Ridgeline is heavier. The Highlander is around 400lbs lighter than a 4Runner. But they're nearly identical in size. All you need to do is correct for the difference in wheels/tires, axles, and the transfer case, and they're damn near identical in weight. The unibody design has advantages in interior layout, but it really doesn't do much or anything meaningful for weight savings. The 2020 Land Rover Defender weights more than the 4Runner. And it's mostly aluminum. The Jeep GC weights the same as a 4Runner.
My wife has a 2018 JGC. It is as heavy as my 4Runner, smaller outside same for passengers inside, and handles like crap. It is somewhat faster, but that's about it. Ground clearance sucks, but TBF it's great in the snow and okay on dirt roads but washboards really give it a hard time. It has a low range that probably no one who ever buys one uses and a pretty good full time AWD system.

When they started to make crossovers they were supposed to be lighter, faster, better handling, and bigger inside than a BOF vehicle. They are slightly better packaged, that's about it. And MAYBE if someone with half a brain gets their hands on the chassis they CAN seriously outperform a BOF vehicle in terms of handling--but who drives like that? No one sane.

I see zero advantage unless we're talking extreme examples like the Germans build, where crossover SUVs are really performance beasts.
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Old 04-24-2020, 11:55 PM #35
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It's coming? Please, not inside.
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Old 04-25-2020, 12:04 AM #36
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My wife has a 2018 JGC. It is as heavy as my 4Runner, smaller outside same for passengers inside, and handles like crap. It is somewhat faster, but that's about it. Ground clearance sucks, but TBF it's great in the snow and okay on dirt roads but washboards really give it a hard time. It has a low range that probably no one who ever buys one uses and a pretty good full time AWD system.
My dad has a Grand Cherokee. OMG, I hate getting into and out of that thing. I smacked my head for a week because the door frame is just so low compared to where my butt sits until I got used to it. I have to contort like mad to get my butt and my head into the vehicle. It's not like I'm super tall. It's just so low up top. Head clearance is okay once I get inside, but getting inside is a pain.

It can be rather zippy, though. Handling is what it is, but it's zippy as heck compared to the 4Runner. If you give it the beans, you get pushed back in the seat a little bit.

There's no subtlety with the brakes, though. You press them a little bit, and you're being pulled forward from your seat.
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Old 04-29-2020, 12:53 AM #37
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Re: moving to a unibody design. I dislike the look (from rear perspective) of the lower control arms cascading towards the earth and runing the ground clearance and probably getting caught up in ruts. Think Honda Ridgeline. In all honesty you're right tho functionally probably not much different. My big concern would be if they go unibody it's probably also no longer going to be a rwd based vehicle. You won't be able to do donuts. It will no longer be unique.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:07 PM #38
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There is something so pathetic about that wheel camber in an IRS suv when you load them down.

Hopefully Toyota doesn't listen to these overlanders and turn it into a Sequoia that got shrunk in the dryer.
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:52 AM #39
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There is something so pathetic about that wheel camber in an IRS suv when you load them down.

Hopefully Toyota doesn't listen to these overlanders and turn it into a Sequoia that got shrunk in the dryer.
This
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Old 05-21-2020, 08:26 PM #40
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So is it better to buy a known 5th Gen or gamble on a 6th Gen ?
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:27 AM #41
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So is it better to buy a known 5th Gen or gamble on a 6th Gen ?
Get a known 5th gen all the way.
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:18 AM #42
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I'm always hesitant about buying a vehicle during an all-new model year. My fear is that there will be some quirk that did not get caught during design and has to be addressed in the following model years. Maybe Toyota has a better track record with this.

If the new RAV4 is an indication of their track record, I would say donít buy first model year. But I would say that of any manufacturer.


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Old 05-28-2020, 09:31 PM #43
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So is it better to buy a known 5th Gen or gamble on a 6th Gen ?
The next 4runner isn't supposed to come out for a few years. If you're willing to wait for it!

Current 5th gen is a dinosaur but the platform has been refined and reworked for a decade+.

Old vs New!
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:38 PM #44
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I buy a new 4R every 10+ years. So by the time I get a new 6th Gen all you early adopters will have worked out the bugs for me.
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:45 PM #45
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So is it better to buy a known 5th Gen or gamble on a 6th Gen ?
There's something north of a million 5th gens sold. So... if you don't like the 6th gen - it's not like they're going away. It will be pretty easy to find a 5th gen after the 6th gen comes out.
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