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Old 07-15-2020, 02:19 PM #16
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Originally Posted by Thebeastlives View Post
Dude what are you talking about? "Toyota track record of mediocrity ?" Pls read this forum in detail and you find guys with 300k mile 4 runners from 3rd gen and 4th gen all over the place. The 4 runner will NEVER be a performance SUV. It will be something that a owner can buy leave stock or customize it for years and when they want to sell it the resale value is only 2nd to the Jeep. It is very reliable and it has been just as capable and even more capable than my Jeeps offroad. I've offroaded for over 30 years and my 4 runners all have been rock solid and able to go anywhere my Jeep bros go. Now if you like something that looks good as the Bronco on paper I would tell you that comes with a serious price. That transmission has been garbage. Those eco boost motors have been garbage as well. 80k will be the mileage that you start to realize new fantasy , and shiney new gadgets are not worth 60k plus in your SUV. The 4 runner 3.4, 4.0 and new 6th gen motor and transmission combo might not be sexy or performance oriented but it will be 4 runner capable and very reliable and will continue to have a extremely high resale value. I love the way the Bronco looks but I'm know that it is a crappy made vehicle and it could never replace my 2018 Trd 4 runner that has NEVER been to the dealership for repairs. My 96 4 runner and 4th gen that now have over 270k miles never went to the dealership either.
Thank you, I agree.
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Old 07-15-2020, 03:02 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
On most models it's now down to about an $800 option. So the cost is minimal. And if it's done right it should be more reliable. Basically a redundant power system. Even if it only had 5-10 miles of EV range, in the event of a major engine failure, 5 or 10 miles could be a lot better than zero miles.

I haven't really heard of any one having issues with any manufacturer's hybrid system reliability. It's more complex. But I really have no reason to think it's any less reliable than the current drive train. Given that it will also reduce the stress on the engine by providing ev power at peak times - I think there's a pretty good chance that the system will last longer as a whole.

Even if the batteries need a replacement every 20 years - is that a problem? As long as the system notifies that it's needed and that a battery failure doesn't result in a broken down vehicle, I'm not sure I'd be opposed to that. I have to replace the normal battery every 4-5 years. If it saved me more money in fuel and maintenance than the battery replacement cost and gave me all of the benefits of EV drive - like unlimited fording depth, and probably great towing performance, etc. I'd probably be in favor of it.
It all depends on what you want out of this thing and what your expectations are.

We are a multi-vehicle household… and our 4Runner is mostly used a weekend car, camping, adventure, road trip, and a heavy focus in off-road use. What we don’t use it for is a commuter or daily driver. It’s also a bit of a hobby truck, I like to work on it in the little free time that I have these days. Something that is becoming increasingly more difficult as cars become newer and include more complex system.

Frankly I don’t want TSS, crawl control, batteries (which I know plenty about), hybrid drive or other system included in the thing. It fulfills an interesting niche in SUVs market, and it really doesn’t need to be more than what it is now considering all the other non-BOF options available.

These trucks are already bit of a swiss army knife, which is great. They can do a bit of everything, but they are a jack of all trades, and a master of none. It’s in a good place, but adding all sorts of other shit to it and you end up with a swiss army knife that isn’t very useful to anyone.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

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Old 07-16-2020, 12:09 PM #18
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Originally Posted by Thebeastlives View Post
Have you ever taken a 4 runner or wrangler offroad? Or are you just repeating nonsense from other so call automobile writers? The Trd pro or offroad in stock form is far superior to the open diff base wrangler. That IFS that everyone keeps knocking is actually far superior to the Rubicon in the desert especially when you have to drive 30 miles of washboard dirt road with pot holes everywhere. My stock trd 4 runner once was on the Mojave dirt road and I completely left my Jeep bros like I was driving a trophy truck. On the Rubicon Jeep trail every IFS 4 runner made it to top with only a few broken front axles which we fixed in 45 mins or less. Those rubicon jeeps broken diffs, rear and front axles, and 1 2017 broke his transmission. As bad ass as some think the Rubicon is it ain't in stock form. EVERYONE has to modify their trail vehicle and every vehicle breaks it is just the 4 runner is built to break less. Hey but if you don't believe me try some serious offroading and watch how stock sucks and then try to modified your vehicle and watch how fewer problem points a 4 runner has over a Jeep. That 4 runner on paper isn't as capable as a stock bronco but how reliable do you actually think a Bronco will be in the real world 100+ miles from any help on a remote trail?
I'm totally agreeing with you on every point. It's not about reality, it's about marketing and image.

And yah. I've done my share of wheeling and broken some stuff. I've been up to my doors in rivers and smashed sliders on rocks. I do understand where IFS is good and where it's limited. Not everyone wants a desert runner nor a rock crawler.

Most of the 4runners, in my area, are used for mall runs followed by snow trips, The reality is most owners (in my area) don't want to go off road, don't want to tow and don't need a 4Low range. They should be driving crossovers, but they buy T4R because it fits and image they like. The reality is, more than 90% of my time is spend on smooth flat surfaces with traction.

The point I was trying to make is that Toyota is not trying to be best at any one thing, they are trying to be the most popular. Most popular = $$$.

Bumbo said it best.
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These trucks are already bit of a swiss army knife, which is great. They can do a bit of everything, but they are a jack of all trades, and a master of none.
To be popular then need a differentiator for the next generation, that could be a hybrid drive train. We know Toyota's affinity for hybrid systems and it seems logical.

Hybrid is unlikely to save you money unless, gas is ~6/gal or you drive ~30K miles a year. However, it can (if enabled) give you more power and more torque (if enabled) and can let you be much quieter off road. This would be at the expense of weight, cost and one more fancy thing to break.

As for the Bronco I was discussing the Ecoboost drive train. Even if it is garbage (time will tell) it has the public's eye as something different or dare I say perceived as better.
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:56 PM #19
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Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
On most models it's now down to about an $800 option. So the cost is minimal. And if it's done right it should be more reliable. Basically a redundant power system. Even if it only had 5-10 miles of EV range, in the event of a major engine failure, 5 or 10 miles could be a lot better than zero miles.

I haven't really heard of any one having issues with any manufacturer's hybrid system reliability. It's more complex. But I really have no reason to think it's any less reliable than the current drive train. Given that it will also reduce the stress on the engine by providing ev power at peak times - I think there's a pretty good chance that the system will last longer as a whole.

Even if the batteries need a replacement every 20 years - is that a problem? As long as the system notifies that it's needed and that a battery failure doesn't result in a broken down vehicle, I'm not sure I'd be opposed to that. I have to replace the normal battery every 4-5 years. If it saved me more money in fuel and maintenance than the battery replacement cost and gave me all of the benefits of EV drive - like unlimited fording depth, and probably great towing performance, etc. I'd probably be in favor of it.
I would suggest to buy the hybrid if you like it, but you are highly unlikely to save money with today's hybrid technology. There are some gov't rebates that can offset this, but it depends on where you are at and what the incentive is. Even with incentives you are likely to loose money in the end.

Warning Math Below

The Rav 4 Hybrid option is $2400 and gets you a 33% increase in mileage. 30 MPG->40MPG. The option is about 1/2 the price of the original Prius vs Echo and a larger increase in MPG. So it's going the right direction.

The Rav 4 Hybrid can save $375/year, driving 15K miles with gas at $3/gal. That puts the break even at 6.4 years or 77 months. Assuming you don't drive like a bat out of hell.

I'm also not including the interest paid (est $200-$500) on the extra $2400 over the life the loan. Not to mention the extra taxes, insurance, and DMV fees for a more expensive car. All that will eat up another years worth of savings.

The average owner keeps their car 71 months. This means that the average person won't have the car long enough to recoup the cost of the hybrid option.

If you keep it longer than 77 months (6.4 years) you are ahead by $375/year. However, you will need to replace the Hybrid batteries between 8-10 years (or 100K miles) and cost can be $3K-$8K. BTW the replacement interval works out to 10K-12.5K miles per year, which is below my estimated 15K miles above. This would make net zero time between 7.7 and 9.5 years which is smack dab in the middle of the battery replacement interval.

Let's say you get 10 years on the batteries and a low ball replacement cost of $3K. $375*3.6yrs is $1350 in the bank. Best case your are still out of pocket $1650.

Of course this can change and has changed. I did the same calculation for the original Prius and the cost of ownership was about 3 or 4x this.

We used have several cars that go 50+ MPG in the 80s. They were not fast but they were in expensive and fun to drive.

Here are a few:
Honda CRX HF
Chevy Sprint 3 cylinder
Geo Metro XFi
However, the where low cost cars and the profits were low for everyone and they went away.
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Old 07-16-2020, 01:49 PM #20
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I like math... The last time I did the math on hybrid savings over the life of ownership for my own mileage and vehicle choice, the ROI was negligible. It was more likely that I would sell the car before that return was achieved.

I have a good friend who works for an auto manufacturer and he told me a large part of why they make and sell hybrid / economy vehicles is so they can get their fleet MPG up. This allows them to sell more lower mileage vehicles like trucks, which generally tend to be much better sellers.

Apparently these manufactures need to maintain some type of acceptable average across their fleet. I think it’s safe to say that without the Prius, Toyota would not be able to sell as many trucks as they do.

When you take into consideration the mentality behind why these products are even conceived in the first place… it really has nothing to do with cost savings, environment, or making the car better. It has everything to do with satisfying the corporate average fuel economy to maintain sales of more desirable vehicles.

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Old 07-16-2020, 03:46 PM #21
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Originally Posted by itr1275 View Post
I would suggest to buy the hybrid if you like it, but you are highly unlikely to save money with today's hybrid technology. There are some gov't rebates that can offset this, but it depends on where you are at and what the incentive is. Even with incentives you are likely to loose money in the end.

Warning Math Below

The Rav 4 Hybrid option is $2400 and gets you a 33% increase in mileage. 30 MPG->40MPG. The option is about 1/2 the price of the original Prius vs Echo and a larger increase in MPG. So it's going the right direction.

The Rav 4 Hybrid can save $375/year, driving 15K miles with gas at $3/gal. That puts the break even at 6.4 years or 77 months. Assuming you don't drive like a bat out of hell.

I'm also not including the interest paid (est $200-$500) on the extra $2400 over the life the loan. Not to mention the extra taxes, insurance, and DMV fees for a more expensive car. All that will eat up another years worth of savings.

The average owner keeps their car 71 months. This means that the average person won't have the car long enough to recoup the cost of the hybrid option.

If you keep it longer than 77 months (6.4 years) you are ahead by $375/year. However, you will need to replace the Hybrid batteries between 8-10 years (or 100K miles) and cost can be $3K-$8K. BTW the replacement interval works out to 10K-12.5K miles per year, which is below my estimated 15K miles above. This would make net zero time between 7.7 and 9.5 years which is smack dab in the middle of the battery replacement interval.

Let's say you get 10 years on the batteries and a low ball replacement cost of $3K. $375*3.6yrs is $1350 in the bank. Best case your are still out of pocket $1650.

Of course this can change and has changed. I did the same calculation for the original Prius and the cost of ownership was about 3 or 4x this.

We used have several cars that go 50+ MPG in the 80s. They were not fast but they were in expensive and fun to drive.

Here are a few:
Honda CRX HF
Chevy Sprint 3 cylinder
Geo Metro XFi
However, the where low cost cars and the profits were low for everyone and they went away.
The assumptions are wrong because you're comparing 2wd Rav4 with the awd hybrid. AWD LE vs AWD LE hybrid is a more accurate comparison IMO. When you do the math with objective assumptions not seeking a predetermined outcome - the hybrid wins in almost any scenario.

The Rav4 hybrid option currently is $575. You can compare this yourself. Rav4LE AWD is $27,775. Rav4 LE hybrid AWD is $28,350.

MPG difference is 30mpg combined for the LE 40mpg combined for the LE hybrid.

The break even formula for miles driven is fuel cost per mile of the non hybrid equal to fuel cost per mile of the hybrid plus the cost difference.

In this case .03333(fuel price)(miles) = [.025(fuel price)(miles) + $575]

In this case if fuel is set to $2.50/gal the result is 27,600 miles to break even on new vehicle cost difference.

The batteries are warrantied for 10 years and 150k miles on all Toyota hybrids. So 10 years is a minimum no cost life, but typically they've been replaced around 20 years or 300k miles in actual service in larger fleets (taxi service). Generally they are never replaced in most hybrids. A reasonable actuarial value that I'd assign is let's say 5% chance of battery replacement at 10 years. Or risk adjusted value of $150 on a new vehicle.

Given that you'll save approximately $3125 in fuel during the warranty period, in the unlikely event you need a battery at that point, you're still very close to breaking even. But on a risk adjusted basis - your way ahead with the hybrid. Now - if you assume average fuel cost of $4, you're $5k ahead by that point so even with a battery replacement at year 10, it's still lower cost.

Assuming you keep it less than 10 years - the hybrid will break even with current pricing in about 2 years on fuel vs cost difference. And it'll resell for quite a bit more as well.

Using KBB - I priced two identical 3 year old Rav4 LE models. One hybrid. The other non-hybrid. The values were 22,327 vs 20,177. That's a difference in value at 3 years of $2,150. Resale value of the hybrid is significantly more than the new cost differential.

The cost to own the hybrid Rav4 is cheaper under almost every scenario when you use what I would consider the most reasonable unbiased assumptions - meaning the actual difference in price new of comparable models and value differential of resale along with a probability weighted battery replacement value.

The unknown is the actual price difference you'd pay for a new one. My guess is non-hybrids have bigger discounts anywhere that there is a supply constraint. Places where the supply is available of both are in the range of 70% or more taking the hybrid. I think the only reason not to choose a hybrid rav4 would be if you wanted the adventure model or similar that has a more capable awd system - the hybrid is not so great in more challenging terrain. - but... it's a rav4 who cares if it's good off road?

What system the 4Runner will get will probably be pretty obvious when the Tundra hybrid is finally released. Just for fun if the 4Runner were to have a hybrid that could bump it from 17mpg combined to 25mpg combined (I think very reasonable target, although I'd bet 30 is what it actually comes out as) you'd save $4700 over the first 100k miles on fuel at $2.50/gal and more like $7,500 at $4/gal. If it adds 100hp and 100ft/lbs of torque across the board, the ability to ford streams at any depth, and the ability to run as a generator at camp and use the battery for your fridge - I think the answer will be that i'll be very popular. OTOH if it's a NA 2.5L and weak hybrid with 240hp combined - I'm guessing it'll sell about as well as the 4cyl 2010 4runner did.



Side note:
The low cost fuel efficient cars went away for a few reasons.
Safety made them heavier.
And emissions requirements do not allow for lean burn engines anymore. That's what those were. A 3 way catalyitic converter requires a fuel ratio richer than stoichiometric to provide the un-burned fuel for the catalytic converter required for the NOx reductions. Use of ethanol based fuel makes this much worse. For the reaction to work properly ethanol based fuels must run approximately 30% rich. e85 for example wastes a ton of fuel to run the catalytic converter. The plus side is that the final emissions are much cleaner than the old lean-burn cars despite burning more fuel.

Dirty cheap fun cars are never coming back. But - I think cheap fun EVs are coming. And I'm guessing a few years down the road there will be some very fast cheap EVs available.

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Old 07-16-2020, 06:15 PM #22
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You make good points and I get you're a hybrid fan. No worries, no judgement.

My point is that you should buy it if you like, not because you will or won't save money. If your looking at $40K+ truck you can save $25K+ off the top and buy a Nissan Versa for $12K. The $40K doesn't include the almost 10% adder for tax, license, and other fees to get it out the door.

If they make a hybrid 4runner it will because Toyota can be different and justify the $$ you spend. They don't make much money on the Yaris; however, they do make money on $40K 4runners. And they want to convince you that you can get everything thing for free.

Assumptions are always wrong that's why they are called assumptions. I used national averages and then added a bit to them. My sources are below.

AAA says national average fuel price is $2.201/gal. I used $3, padded by 36%.
AAA Gas Prices

Average miles/year is closer to 10K. I padded by ~30% to 15K.
Average miles driven per year by state - CarInsurance.com

I used the base price of the LE ($25,950) and the LE Hybrid ($28,350). These are the two lowest cost models. The hybrid forces the AWD on you. So the price is up for debate. But let's use your numbers for a minute and I will qualify my prices for comparison.

$4/gal is way high for a national average. If you live the bay area it's higher, but still close to $3 right now. However, using national average numbers its even less.

Assuming a 30% MPG increase.
10000 miles/17 mpg = 588 Gals
10000 miles/22 mpg = 454 Gals
133 Gals/year saved *$2.201/gal = $293

So your price ($575 diff) it's ~2 years to break even. So it could be better than my numbers but it far from your better than the free scenario.

With my price ($2400 diff) it's now 8.1 years.

As for resale, it is true I can buy an old ass 4wd 4runner for $4K and the same everything except 2wd for $2000. It looks like the 4wd held twice it's value, but it's really and offset of the original cost. However, what your proposing is the the hybrid system gained value, from $575 to $2,150? If that was the case Warren Buffet would be buying these things all day long.

You can take that same money you put into the hybrid system and invest it. Using the Dow Jones as a reference it was around 16,000 in 2013 and is now almost 27,000 today. Assuming you keep it for 7 years, you would have 68% return on that. So your $575 would be $836. So that $250 loss adds another year to the return. This doesn't account for the other 4% you pay in interested to Toyota from buying the hybrid.

For my $2400 pay out would $3500 today and make it even worse.

"if the 4Runner were to have a hybrid that could bump it from 17mpg combined to 25mpg combined (I think very reasonable target, although I'd bet 30 is what it actually comes out as)"

Your speculating that they will have a 47%-76% gain in MPG? The Rav 4 gaining 30% on a much lighter, smaller and aerodynamic vehicle is impressive. It unlikely they can do this with a ~5,000lb body on frame rolling box, then adding a min 250 lbs for the batteries, motors and electronics. But lets assume that they can the same 30%, it would be closer to 22 MPGs best case. More likely it would be in the 15% range.

BTW you only get Rav 4 40 MPG with the rock hard eco tires that come on the car. Assuming it will the next gen will be a hybrid, the minute that everyone swaps the eco tires for bigger A/Ts the mileage will tank. Then the winch bumper, rock rails, rack with lights. It will be more like 5% average. But I think the low speed trail mileage could go way up and give a little extra badly needed power if they allow that.

In the end best case scenario you might break even many years down the road. So it's a bet on how much you pay, how much you drive and how long you keep it.

I'm not poo pooing your opinion but I really don't see the economics of spending more to maybe save later. Very few cars are investments that gain value.

BTW Your side note is spot on and I hope they do have cheap fun cars coming back.
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Old 07-16-2020, 06:58 PM #23
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Just my opinion, but I don't see the point of in going half way.

If the goal was to get a lower total cost of ownership, maintenance, and cost per mile... why not just go all the way and buy a nice EV like a Tesla?

Not to mention all the other perks of owning one, especially as a commuter. Truly an awesome car after taking the time to compare it to any other sedan on the road.

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Old 07-16-2020, 10:33 PM #24
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A lot harder to package the batteries unless it went unibody

(And yes toyota is mediocre, the 5th gen is very dated now)
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:59 PM #25
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Just my opinion, but I don't see the point of in going half way.

If the goal was to get a lower total cost of ownership, maintenance, and cost per mile... why not just go all the way and buy a nice EV like a Tesla?

Not to mention all the other perks of owning one, especially as a commuter. Truly an awesome car after taking the time to compare it to any other sedan on the road.
Cost per mile would include the cost of the car driven over the life time.

If you paid $100K for a Tesla and drove 100K miles it might look something like this.
Car $100K
Insurance (10 yrs) $10K
maintenance $10K (probably low)
Fuel/Electricity $20K
$140/100miles = $1.40/mile
All in for 100K miles is $140K
If you bought a 2 year old Nissan Leaf blower.
Car $18K
Insurance (10 yrs) $10K
maintenance $10K
Fuel/Electricity $20K
$41K/100K = $0.41/mile
All in for 100K miles is $41K
Then take the $88K you saved an invest it with a return of 115% over 10 years to get back $190K
In the end you got a free and car put 100K miles on it and get $190K to boot.

But then the government decides you are wealthy and making too much money, so they take 1/2 (capitol gains) the $190K, leaving you with $95K in cash. Then they up your tax bracket because you made too much money that year and take another 50K. Down to $45K at this point. The brokerage wants their piece for fees and commissions and take another $30K. Which leaves you with the $15K and a 10 year Nissan Leaf. However the batteries went out in the Leaf and you have to pay $2K to get it recycled and you're down to $13K and you don't have a car at all.

Until you get a new car you have to Uber everywhere, which is another $5K. Which leaves you with $8K. You find a newer Nissan Leaf, however, it's 10 years later and they are now $50K. So you take out a loan for the other $42K + tax license etc ) $48K total. Now your $-48K in the hole. Which means you can't afford your electricity anymore, so you borrow your neighbors bicycle that gets stolen. You replace the bicycle -$4K (it was a nice bike). -$52K.

You started with $100K in cash and now 10 years later you are $45K in the hole all because you didn't buy a 4runner.
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Old 07-17-2020, 04:53 PM #26
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If a Suburban can get 30mpg and have great power output - 17mpg isn't really good enough. Even if we don't care about emissions, I still care about things like range and weight. Toyota has great engines. Toyota isn't putting them in the 4Runner or Tacoma. That's basically all it is. The 5.0L atkinson cycle V8 is fantastic. And it could easily be fitted along with an 8 speed auto in the 4Runner for very little manufacturing cost difference. And would likely get significantly better mpg.

The 1GR is a fine engine. It was top of class when it was introduced in 2002. In 2020 - it's not so competitive anymore. The 3rd gen 4Runner was still on sale and came with a cassette tape deck when the 1GR first started selling in Toyota models. It's a very reliable engine. But it's past time for an update to something with a much wider range of efficient power output.
The 1GR that came out in 2002 for use in the 2003 4th gen 4Runner, has little in common with the 1GR in the 5th gen 4Runner.

Sure it's a still a 4 liter V6, but almost every part of the engine has been improved. The block, the crank, the cylinder heads, the intake, etc.
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Old 07-17-2020, 05:50 PM #27
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@itr1275

Our Model 3 was 37k before any state and federal tax incentives.

At 17 cents per kwh, I can charge the pack complete for $9.18, which takes me 250 miles. I use far less than that daily and it's more than enough for the daily grind.

I charge at home and never see a pump.
I get HOV access.
I literally don't have to drive it as autopilot is literally that good.

The total cost of ownership is much lower than you might think. With the mileage my wife puts on it, it's just about paid for itself.

To be honest, I could really care less if this car was electric. It's improves my experience and quality of life on the road in a way no other car is able to do. Leaf blower cant deliver the same owner experience. Comparing the two is just silly.

Money saved goes into Tesla stock, I bought my first share at $200, and you know what that looks like today... Not a bad run since their market cap is now larger than Toyota.

My point was that hybrids are confused technology... I don't care to meet it in the middle, it's an inefficient place to be. I rock 100% battery and I happily I burn dinosaurs in my 4Runner on the weekends.

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Old 07-17-2020, 05:55 PM #28
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The answer to your confusion is that most people either cant afford or dont have a place to store a second vehicle, so an electric vehicle + gas vehicle for fun doesnt work for most people
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Old 07-17-2020, 07:39 PM #29
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The answer to your confusion is that most people either cant afford or dont have a place to store a second vehicle, so an electric vehicle + gas vehicle for fun doesnt work for most people
I get your point, but I still don't see a need for this on a BOF 4x4.

I also agree with your comment about unibody design and battery packs. I have personally pulled the battery packs out of salvaged EVs as a side hustle to resell to DIY powerwall builders for stationary solar storage.

There isn't anywhere to put any measurable amount of capacity in these trucks, and it's in the most vulnerable place on a 4x4. Coming down on some rocks could be an expensive lesson for a weekend warrior.

The crossover market is flooded with good hybrid options for those who just need a better work/play balance.

If they want to throw a new NA power plant into the 4R great, but I just question the value and validity of a hybrid drive in this platform.
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:24 PM #30
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To be honest, I could really care less if this car was electric. It's improves my experience and quality of life on the road in a way no other car is able to do. Leaf blower cant deliver the same owner experience. Comparing the two is just silly.
I'm not quite sure how we got here? The post started as a prediction that Toyota will do a hybrid drive train. But anyway here we are, out in the weeds, looking for the elusive Ribbon-tailed Astrapia.



Said like a true Teslanian. You must be in my neighborhood, land of the Tesla and people that own Tesla stock. ;)

Yes comparing the Leaf and Tesla is silly as that entire post is silly. But don't frown on Leaf people, they will take over the world with all the money they save. You and I, we're screwed because we spend way too much on cars.

The point of that post is you will never make money on a car. None the less get a car to "pay for itself. If they did, as I said before, Warren Buffet would be buying fleets of them.

Even collectable cars loose money all the time. People buy an old car dump $100K in to it and sell it $80K. That doesn't account for the 500 hours of labor they put into it either. Even if you bought it new you and put $0 into it you would loose money.

They buy cars because they want to and they enjoy it. As you should enjoy your car and I'm glad you do. However, a Tesla is not for everyone. I won't buy a Tesla just because of the lack of real buttons and knobs.

The hybrid is an odd duck, but it bridges a gap. If everyone had an EV and charged it every day, we wouldn't be able to supply enough juice. People are working on that but it takes 20 years to build a power plant. But then why should they build it if there is no demand. Chicken and the egg.
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