[Footofgod]

I'll try and explain this as detailed as I can. About a year ago I started having intermittent starting problems. I would turn the key hear a click and get nothing else. Happened about once a month. Replaced the starter relay, but that didn't help. This past month it has got progressively worse. The tapping on the starter trick worked in every case to get it started.

Stopped at the salvage yard and picked up a used starter. The guy at the yard demonstrated a bench test and it seemingly works fine. Take it over to SV Dude's house for some beer and burgers (thanks for all the help by the way). We pull the old starter and put the used one in and we got nothing. I no longer hear the pre-start click that I have always heard with my runner. We checked and double checked all the wiring. We pulled up the FSM for more info and got nothing. According to the multi meter we have power, so both SV Dude and myself are a bit stumped.

Looking for suggestions.

[KidVermicious]

What happens when you bypass the ignition and relay and jump power straight from the battery to the solenoid?

Starter contacts go out, and relays and ignition wiring get old and worn. You can chase this thing forever, but based on my own experience and what I read on the forums, there's only one reliable fix. First replace the copper contacts in the solenoid, or at least clean them up real good. Put the old starter back in the truck. Get yourself a $20 Ford relay from the parts store ('78 Bronco works for a parts lookup), run juice from the battery through the relay to the starter solenoid, and terminate your crank wire on the relay instead of the solenoid. Forget that you ever had starter issues.

4crawler has a page on starter troubleshooting and repair that was invaluable for me.

[Footofgod]

Originally Posted by KidVermicious

What happens when you bypass the ignition and relay and jump power straight from the battery to the solenoid?

Starter contacts go out, and relays and ignition wiring get old and worn. You can chase this thing forever, but based on my own experience and what I read on the forums, there's only one reliable fix. First replace the copper contacts in the solenoid, or at least clean them up real good. Put the old starter back in the truck. Get yourself a $20 Ford relay from the parts store ('78 Bronco works for a parts lookup), run juice from the battery through the relay to the starter solenoid, and terminate your crank wire on the relay instead of the solenoid. Forget that you ever had starter issues.

4crawler has a page on starter troubleshooting and repair that was invaluable for me.

Did the 4crawler search that you reccomended to someone else. Gonna play with a few ideas today.

[SV_Dude]

Riddle me this fellas:

The FSM has a test for the starter relay. In the first pic of the starter relay it shows that the starter relay is a 4 pin relay like what is in the 4runner. But, in the testing of the starter relay the FSM shows that the relay is a 5 pin relay that is completely different from what is in the 4runner. Am I missing something here because the FSM is showing a test for a relay that we don't have?!?!?!?!

[GonOvr]

ignore the center pin.

[SV_Dude]

Originally Posted by GonOvr

ignore the center pin.

That's what I was kinda leaning towards but even the pin layout is different and the pins on the relay aren't labeled like they would be on a standard relay. On the first pic I would think that is an accurate diagram of the starter relay with the poles labeled 1 through 4. But on the relay they're talking about testing they talk about testing pins 1 through 5. So, on the 4 pin starter relay, which pin is #5? I would like to test his relay but without having good info on how to identify the pins in the FSM it would be pointless.

[Footofgod]

Took the old starter to the local parts store to get tested. It tested good, so we are starting to think the problem is not the starter. Ran the FSM tests on the ignition switch and assuming we are doing them correctly the switch is bad. Picking up a new switch today to see.

[rolling blackout]

I recently had a similar problem, and all it turned out to be was a loose ground cable.

[SV_Dude]

So, we have replaced the ignition switch and it still didn't fix the issue. I did test the switch as per the FSM and the old and new one tested bad. However, the FSM was for an 95 4runner and this is a 91 that we're working on. I'm thinking that the test may be different for a 91 or maybe the pin layout in the plug is different?

I'm thinking the problem lies somewhere before the starter. The battery voltage is 12.3 volts and I'm getting 12.3 volts at the main power lug (starter motor side) on the starter. When we try to start the 4runner we are only getting 6 volts or so at the smaller lug (coil) on the starter. We should be getting 12v there and we're not. I'm going to test the starter relay and pull the new starter and take it to get it tested. If the parts test out then we have a gremlin in the wire harness somewhere, most likely a grounding issue.

Way to go and break your rig Bill!

[KidVermicious]

I still wanna know what happens when you bypass the ignition and relay and jump the battery straight to the solenoid. If that works, then jump the ignition to the solenoid, bypassing the relay.

If the trouble still isolates to the ignition or factory relay, I think you should wire in a hotshot relay and forget about it. I spent months trying chase the gremlins in my ignition/starter circuit.

[77'911]

Have a friend help you with a voltmeter on the truck when you start it. See what the :
1)draw from the starter is on the battery
2) what does the battery go down to when attempting to start
3) battery base current(ie above 12.5 hopefully)
You might clean the connections on both the starter and battery before doing this.
regards

[SV_Dude]

So... The starter relay tested good and you can hear it click when you turn the key in the ignition. The battery voltage is above 12v, 12.3v to be exact so the battery is good. I ran a wire straight from the battery to the coil side of the starter and the starter didn't budge one bit. I took the new starter out and ran down to advanced auto to have it tested. Turns out the new starter is bad. I wonder if the guys at the yard destroyed it when they were "testing" it because they hooked the leads up wrong and were arcing the heck out of it before they finally connected them the right way.

I'm a little gray in the wiring area so someone please chime in if I'm missing something. From what I can tell, all the wiring is good between the ignition and the starter. I'm getting 12v at the motor side of the starter and 6 volts at the coil side of the starter. The FSM says that as long as voltage is present then it's good but a link on 4crawler says that the voltage should be close to the battery voltage. Just to test the FSM vs 4Crawler I checked the voltage on my 4runner. I also have 12v at the motor side and 6v at the coil side of the starter. This leads me to think that there is nothing wrong with Bill's runner except for his bad "new" starter. I think his old starter was just having some intermittent issues such as a sticky coil or something.

[Footofgod]

Meanwhile, I am at work. I guess I better buy some beer on the way home.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by SV_Dude

So... The starter relay tested good and you can hear it click when you turn the key in the ignition. The battery voltage is above 12v, 12.3v to be exact so the battery is good. I ran a wire straight from the battery to the coil side of the starter and the starter didn't budge one bit. I took the new starter out and ran down to advanced auto to have it tested. Turns out the new starter is bad. I wonder if the guys at the yard destroyed it when they were "testing" it because they hooked the leads up wrong and were arcing the heck out of it before they finally connected them the right way.

I'm a little gray in the wiring area so someone please chime in if I'm missing something. From what I can tell, all the wiring is good between the ignition and the starter. I'm getting 12v at the motor side of the starter and 6 volts at the coil side of the starter. The FSM says that as long as voltage is present then it's good but a link on 4crawler says that the voltage should be close to the battery voltage. Just to test the FSM vs 4Crawler I checked the voltage on my 4runner. I also have 12v at the motor side and 6v at the coil side of the starter. This leads me to think that there is nothing wrong with Bill's runner except for his bad "new" starter. I think his old starter was just having some intermittent issues such as a sticky coil or something.

If it doesn't crank when you give it 12 volts straight, then it's the solenoid, the starter, or a bad ground connection. I'd give the ground strap on the block a good hard look, then rebuild the solenoid contacts on the old starter and put it back in.

You'd better hurry, the Moab trip is only 3 months away...

[SV_Dude]

I checked the ground on the block and the ground on the battery. Everything looks good. We're going to install the old starter soon so we'll see.