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Old 09-09-2010, 10:19 PM #46
truckmike26 truckmike26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klennop View Post
And everywhere else....that is life.

If you know something that is based on factual information, then post it. Enlighten or educate the other members on the forum. Otherwise your post is just as misinforming as the rest.
Thanks for the tip. I still have lots to learn.

I should mention I've been using K&N filters for 18 years in 11 different cars and trucks with zero problems/filter-related issues and swear by them. In every application, whether in my own cars/trucks or a family member's or friend's, I have and they have noticed better throttle response and some improvement in acceleration and efficiency. I hope this isn't too subjective.

Thanks again for the reality-check.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:29 AM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
Basically, the more air that a filter lets in, the more dirt it will let into your engine.
Not true at all.

I've seen objective 3rd party tests for airflow on high perfomance diesel filters both paper and oiled element for engines with twice the displacement and 10 times the airflow as a Toyota V6. I've used K&N, AFE and others on numerous vehicles and motorcycles with very very noticeable improvements in power and no sign of increased dirt entry past the filter as long as filter is sealed and maintained properly. This is easy to discern by running finger inside the intake post filter where you will find the dirt stuck to the walls with the oil from the filter. Once the filter becomes plugged, increased suction occurs which will then suck the oil trapped dirt through the filter creating pinholes you can easily see by shining flashlite in filter in a dark room, its trash at that point . Maintenance is key and rotating two filters is the the best way to handle dusty environments.

In any event, to truly increase airflow, you have to increase surface area. Many of us in the diesel truck world run very large heavy equipment paper filters that are designed to filter way smaller particulate than a stock filter due to the heavy dust environment heavy equipment runs in. These filters outflow the stock filter by three times at least, considering some of the engines running them are over 40psi boost compared to stock 21psi, and a much increased airflow due to larger turbos, remember, boost pressure is only an indicator of restriction, not airflow. After a certain point more psi does not mean more air, it means more heat and diminishing returns.

There are several reasons you wont see any noticeable improvement with a stock "hi flow" replacement filter. If you do not increase your engines demand for air, it really does nothing except possibly on the top end and maybe a bit of responsiveness. Very high altitude is an exception to this rule and open element higher flow intake systems are proven to help an engine that is starving for oxygen crossing 10,000ft elevation passes. A higher flow filter is designed to work with a ... higher air flow. If you are not increasing fuel, there will be no increased demand for air. And you will also need to increase the airflow coming out of the engine. Remember an engine is an air pump. A stock replacement is still limited by the size of the stock air box/intake.

The only real way to improve airflow into the engine is by increasing the size of the intake and filter. The stock air filter is designed to flow only what the stock engine is designed to flow. In other words, if you are leaving your engine stock, you dont need a higher flow filter. Even running my 4 Runner at extreme altitudes I am getting 20-21 mpg steady crossing mtns every day. I cannot imagine there is a noticeable enough increase in mileage to make it worth the cost and maintenance for a oiled filter.

Last edited by Big Bore; 11-16-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 11-16-2010, 10:39 PM #48
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An engine isn't an air pump. An air pump is an air pump. An engine is an engine.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:41 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truckmike26 View Post
An engine isn't an air pump.
Actually, it is. Since oxygen is what you are actually burning. Fuel is merely a catalyst. This could get fun if you're willing to learn.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:36 PM #50
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My 2 cents.. not that you asked....lol

I was heavy into vw turbos' 1.8t and TDI.. The mass air sensor WILL get full of oil from a K&N.. it WILL destroy your sensor.... (I can here the denial already forming...lol)

Air flow vs power vs filtration..... who cares... the 3rd gen MAF is $800 leave the airfilter the #$%& alone...lol

If your determined to get more hp out of your air filter go with AEM dry flow synthetic paper filter.... It flows better than stock...no oil added

nothing filters better than stock paper (argue all day but you cant change that fact) but if you must sacrifice stock paper for performance make sure you dont buy a filter that you need to add oil to..

Lets see how fast your runner with a K&N goes with the MAF only reading 70% of the air going into it.

just my two cents......lol
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:29 AM #51
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The only way you will get a gain from an air filter is if the air filter itself is the restricting component in the whole system (intake to exiting the exhaust). Most of today's engines are designed where the air filter is not the limiting component, that is why you will not see much (if any) gains. The only real advantage these filters have is they last much longer.

As far as the oil damaging a sensor, this is caused by over oiling the filter after cleaning. This can be avoided by damping the filter with a paper towel after re-oiling.

Koz

Last edited by Koz; 03-05-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:58 PM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz View Post
The only way you will get a gain from an air filter is if the air filter itself is the restricting component in the whole system (intake to exiting the exhaust). Most of today's engines are designed were the air filter is not the limiting component, that is why you will not see much (if any) gains. The only real advantage these filters have is they last much longer.

As far as the oil damaging a sensor, this is caused by over oiling the filter after cleaning. This can be avoided by damping the filter with a paper towel after re-oiling.

Koz
That's one of the reasons I switched back to stock. Why worry about farting around with oil when there is a chance it will damage the sensor. Not worth the hassle.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:46 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bore View Post
Actually, it is. Since oxygen is what you are actually burning. Fuel is merely a catalyst. This could get fun if you're willing to learn.
A four-cycle engine is similar in design to a reciprocating piston air pump but it's not an air pump.

A engine can be converted to an air pump by removing the valvetrain, fuel system an altering the heads but it's probably not worth the trouble.
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Last edited by truckmike26; 12-23-2010 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:08 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truckmike26 View Post
A four-cycle engine is similar in design to a reciprocating piston air pump but it's not an air pump.

A engine can be converted to an air pump by removing the valvetrain, fuel system an altering the heads but it's probably not worth the trouble.
Well then a tube of toothpaste is an air pump. So are a lot of things.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:53 PM #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_G View Post
Well then a tube of toothpaste is an air pump. So are a lot of things.
Yes they are. You don't miss a beat. But how effective is a tube of toothpaste, for example -- presumably empty, at moving air through a heat exchanger or inflating an air matress or running pneumatic tools and machinery?
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:10 PM #56
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I myself would be interested in hearing from anyone that has the Toyota CAI system and cat back exhaust or a similar setup, possibly anyone that's done some home testing and dyno runs, for instance

1) pre upgrades gas mileage hand calculated and TQ/HP on a dyno

2) post CAI upgrade (no exhaust) mileage and TQ/HP on a DYNO

3) remove CAI and re install stock, install cat back exhaust, mileage now and TQ/HP dyno readings

4) Post CAI and cat back exhaust upgrade mileage and TQ/HP on a dyno

At least this way we could get some useful info on what works best or in combination for a mild upgrade and some gas mileage improvements.

On another note here in Ontario as is the case in many provinces and a lot of the US States, has anyone had any issues after a CAI upgrade and passing emissions?

As for "more air = more dirt" there have been endless debates and tests, it boils down like a lot of things to proper maintenance, quality of the materials used , application etc but from what I've read over the years you can safely get more air without more dirt.

And a Happy New Year to all the members at T4R !
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:30 PM #57
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When I was big into the stuff, the K&N (and HKS) air filters were pretty much the only option for increasing the air flow into turbo charged engines like the Toyota Supra Turbo's I used to play around with (ancient member of SOGI)

Yes there was an increase in response (the turbo sucks in air like a vacuum), upper end torque and hp. In addition, it "seemed" to help in high temperature places like Sacramento (110 degree heat when air density is lower).

However, over oiling the air filter ONCE, and even over time... you'll be cleaning your MAF. For cars like the MK3, it wasn't that bad (q-tip, electronics cleaner and trips to places like pick 'n pull for replacements).

For the couple (1-3) HP increase, it wasn't worth it. A slightly faster response when you're racing late at night... sure. However I don't race and value my license now so a decent non-oiled filter is good enough especially since I'm not running turbo'd engines.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:34 PM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_R_Canada View Post
I myself would be interested in hearing from anyone that has the Toyota CAI system and cat back exhaust or a similar setup, possibly anyone that's done some home testing and dyno runs, for instance

1) pre upgrades gas mileage hand calculated and TQ/HP on a dyno

2) post CAI upgrade (no exhaust) mileage and TQ/HP on a DYNO

3) remove CAI and re install stock, install cat back exhaust, mileage now and TQ/HP dyno readings

4) Post CAI and cat back exhaust upgrade mileage and TQ/HP on a dyno

At least this way we could get some useful info on what works best or in combination for a mild upgrade and some gas mileage improvements.

Go for it! Let me know which dyno shop you went to and what its rates are. If it's as far away as Ottawa, that'll still be good because it would give me a chance to get some good L/100 km numbers. Also, I read about one 2WD dyno shop that requires you pull your front drive shaft out for safety but I'm hoping none in Ontario will make you do that.

What CAI and cat-back will you test? I'm thinking well-established brands would be a good starting point -- K&N and Borla. Would you buy them locally or from the U.S.?
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:38 AM #59
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I know I am new to this forum, but I am not new to this topic. I have ran aftermarket -oiled- air filters in the last three of my vehicles. I have seen .75 to 1.5 MPG gains. That is the reason I run them.

As far as performance increases, I do not have any data only my thoughts.

I am told that the MAF sensor could be damaged by the oil, but I am careful when I recharge my filters not to apply too much oil. I also bought MAF sensor cleaner and I clean my MAF every oil change, just to be cautious.

And yes you do need to inspect your filter for holes.
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:12 PM #60
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It seems a lot of people in this thread don't quite understand the difference between cold air intakes (CAI) and a drop in replacement panel filter. In terms of cars, a high performance filter on a CAI will certainly make a difference over the stock panel intake system, and how much it filters is arguably a moot point unless you're building a rally car.

Dealing with a truck, I wouldn't even bother with a CAI system unless you have no business off road at all, granted I haven't researched this area nearly as much as I have the former, but it's comparing apples to oranges.

I will say the best cone filter I've used is the AEM dryflow, bar none. Still looking for a 5" for my Supra.
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