[MAST4R]

A lot of new treads are constantly generated by people asking specific questions about tire X vs tire Z. Many of these questions amount to asking whether one should watch football or baseball. The purpose of this tread is to clarify what goes on in selecting all terrain tires. This post is based on 17" wheels and tires in 265 70, 255 75, and 275 70 but 285 70 and 255 80 are also taken into account.

The first question one needs to ask themselves is P metric or LT metric? There is lots of confusion on this subject. It is the most important one to understand (football vs baseball). LT tires exist for hauling and towing. Only a few specific LT designs exist with offroading as a primary objective.

The dominant tires in all 4R sizes except 255 75 17 are Standard Load P-metrics and E-load Light Truck tires, still often confused with 10 ply bias ply tires (radial LTEs in 4R sizes normally have 7, 8, or 9 total physical plies, with 5-6 in the tread and 2-3 in the sidewall. In bigger sizes, they can have 11 total plies). Only Goodyear, Nokian (!), and BFG are kind enough to offer a full range of their premier tires. Most tires are only offered in P and E with C load offerings confined typically to 255 75 17.

Question 1: Do I want P metric or LTE (D falls here as well)? Choose the right type of tire for your use.
Advantages of P:
1/ Weight. For the most part, P metric tires are a good 10+lb lighter than LTEs (there are exceptions to most rules).
2/ Stopping distances. This is a specific aspect of 1/weight but as the most important one needs to be highlighted. You can expect at least 15-20% longer stopping distances when running the E version of a given vs the P version of the same tire. This is based on Discount Tire Treadwell data.
3/ Comfort on road: SL ties are much less stiff than LTE tires as they normally are built to hold up to either 44 or 51 psi vs 80 psi for LTE (65 in some sizes; 65 standard max psi for LTD). SL tires carry HIGHER loads than LT tires when pressures are in the 30s.
4/ Tire life with predominantly road use without towing. This is important as the reverse is true if you reverse the type of use.
5/ Traction. On a 4R, LTE tires are too stiff to provide equivalent traction on road even when run in the mid-30s. Off-road LTE tires must be aired down a lot to provide equivalent flex.
6/ No need to air down offroad (except deep soft sand and such). Indeed, P metric tires not only don't have to be aired down but they should never be aired down as much as LTs (except deep soft stuff).
7/ Cost. P metrics contain less material and cost less. Yet, they deliver more in most conditions so they are also a better overall value in most cases.

Advantages of LTE. Well, this is harder because LTEs really fall into two different groups: standard LTEs and off-road biased LTEs.

Advantages of standard LTE AT tires. Examples: Wildpeaks, Ridge Grapplers, Duratracs, Discoverer AT3s
1/ Comfort offroad. Because an LTE will rattle your bones and teeth at street pressures offroad, you have to air down. So this is not always fun. BUT, what you do get is supreme comfort which matters especially if you are running a mediocre suspension (stock or spacer lifts) or a partially improved one (like good shocks with stock springs). The much lower pressures that LTE allows offroad over P can completely mask the harshness of the stock suspension. I know lots of people think stock suspension is comfy offroad. Wrong, on a 4R. Correct on GX. The 4R stock suspension is NOT comfortable offroad unless compared to a bad aftermarket setup.
2/ Handling/cornering on road. Because an LTE has incredibly stiff sidewalls, LTD/E is going to improve the handling/cornering feel of a 4R with mediocre suspension and add crispness to one with a good suspension.
3/ Tire life when used on a vehicle that sees a lot of offroading and/or towing, the LTE tires should actually outlast their P metric equivalents.

Advantages of LTE with an offroad-biased construction. This is what I call LTE tires built a carcasss featuring 3 plies of polyester including 3 in the sidewall. These tires are BFG KO2 in LTD and LTE (3Poly, 2 Steel, 1 nylon in the tread and 3 poly in the sidewall), Cooper STT Maxx, MT Baja ATZ P 3, Toyo CT, Yokohama X-AT and maybe a couple others.
1/ as above2/ as above3/ as above
4/ These are THE ONLY LTE tires that are CERTAINLY stronger for offroad use. However, this point is easily over-stressed. These tires are only really needed in severe rock crawling conditions (where you drive on sidewalls or use a tiny spot on 1-2 tires to climb a rock obstacle transferring enormous torque and load to that tiny spot) as well as in high-speed desert running where a P metric at 30+ psi can be more easily punctured by a rogue rock that manages to find the void between tread blocks. By the same token, if you lower the P metric pressures, then you expose the sidewalls to higher risk (you should not be running aired down LTs fast either). Most people on this forum do not come even close to justifying the use of such tires functionally. The other functional reason people buy them is "over-preparing," which is understandable when one lacks experience.

Question 2. Now that you have settled on P vs LT, you need to narrow it down P vs P and LT vs LT:
1/ P vs P
1a/ Do I want to focus on tread life (harder compound) or performance (softer compound)? . Generally, a mileage warranty is indicative of the former though not a guarantee of the latter. Consumer Reports has data for some tires.
1b/ Do I want offroad bias in tread and puncture resistance (big shoulder protectors, bigger distances between outside blocks) or do I want on-road bias (uninterrupted rib in the middle of the tire for maximum noise reduction, smaller voids between tread blocks)?
1c/ How do I know which Ps are best for offroading? Quite easy, honestly. Look at those that are marketed as suitable for any terrain vs those that emphasize rain and dirt. Corporations want to sell but they know their stuff. When you see rock missing from a Duratrac's list of strengths, that means something (and you all know its rep for punctures in rocks). Look for big shoulder protectors and for tires that are labeled and/or visually the same from P to LTE vs those where you obviously see more offroad capability built in as you progress up the load range. Example: Wildpeaks are, offroad wise, the same in P, C, and E while the Toyo AT II progresses from a good P (5+2 plies and mild shoulders) to strong LT (6+plies and bigger shoulder protectors) to a super strong LT-X (8+3 plies !!! and robust shoulder protectors).

2/ LTE vs LTE: this really comes down to what I mentioned above, generic LTE that is not necessarily any stronger than its P counterpart (Wildpeaks, Ridge Grapplers) VS. extra strong LTE (KO2s, Maxx, etc).

As always, there are examples that don't fall neatly into a simple binary. The Nokian AT Plus, GY Adventure with Kevlar, the Toyo AT II, the General ATX, and the Michelin AT2 are all likely to be stronger than your average P or LTE without matching the specialty LTEs (KO2s, Cooper Maxx, Toyo CTs, ATZ P3, Yoko X-AT). Looking at weight can help to decide. For example, the Toyo AT II and the Michelin AT2 provide strength advantages at under 50lb. But if I am to have a 54-55lb tire, I will definitely want that third sidewall ply.

Question 3. But what about C load LT metrics? This is the unicorn. Only BFG, Nokian, and Goodyear are kind enough to offer C loads in the most popular 4R sizes. Only the Nokian Rotiiva AT Plus C-load is functionally equivalent to its LTE sibling in that both seem to have the same ply number (to be confirmed) and aramid sidewalls. The BFG LTC KO2s has the same tread plies as LTD/E KO2s and great reputation but one less sidewall ply. The Duratrac is an older style tire that only has 4 plies in the tread in all metrics (no cap ply). When you move to 255 75 17 you can finally find a few extra LTC options, especially in MT. Even then you will find LTC that do not match the construction of LTE siblings (Yokohama MT g003). Many LTCs have no obvious claim for strength over a P. These are the Duratrac, the Destination AT, the Destination XT, and I am sure some others as well.

Question 4. How to find the info I need?
1/ Tire Rack is the only place I know that measures tires on their own. They also apply the same measuring sticks to all tires, hence their metrics are the most reliable.
2/ The Discount Tire Treadwell tool is great and there is absolutely nothing else like it.
Everything else is secondary:
3/ Manufacturers websites are useful, especially if you pay close attention and contrast how various corporations market their stuff. Look for what is omitted from the lists of strengths of tires. You will notice, for example, that only a handful of P metrics are confidently marketed for any offroad conditions.
4/ Consumer Reports is good for street manners and especially rolling resistance. But they test very few tires and they only seem to be P metrics.
5/ Tire Rack comments are not as worthless as often claimed but you need to know how to work with this kind of information to make good use of it.
6/ Four Wheeler magazine can offer useful info but they are pickup biased.
7/ Tire manufacturers are not always responsive by email. But on occasion they provide some good tidbits.
8/ "Professional reviews" are mostly worthless. These are journalists gathered by a company to celebrate a new tire. The only thing there is to look for are omissions. For example, if the reports fail to mention that a tire is quiet, chances are it is loud as heck. It is extremely unlikely that a reporter will flat out criticize a tire after the invitational so you are looking for what they omit from their praise.

[Thai]

A few comments about your guide....

1. As i pointed out before, Discount Tire Treadwell is trash. It rates Goodyear MT/R (mud terrain) ABOVE Goodyear AT. It rates Michelin AT-2 above Defenders. BOTH of those scores go against the respective manufacturer's own ratings. I am sure that a 3rd party does that rating for DT. Pure randomness in the scores.

2. TireRack CONSUMER rating should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. A lot of them compares the new tires with their old worn out tires...which makes no damn sense.

3. TireRack own editor comparisons and ratings...now THOSE are legit! I greatly value those!

4. No need to air down a P-metric? Source of this claim?

5. Journalists review...as long as they have pics / videos of their outings, i think that they are far more informative than an average consumer review.

For example, this review: https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum...6&d=1497265431

That's pretty great review i think.