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Old 09-08-2019, 12:08 PM #1
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Tire decision

Figured to pick the experts' brains here --

So it's juuust about tire time. On the fence as whether to get P-metric, Load C or even considering Load E. I hear that going up to C or E improves the handling some.

Driving habits? Daily driver, and 95% on-road, with only a little light off roading.

Also in the mix is that I'll be getting some new shocks in the next year or so, planning the Bilstein 5100s (or maybe 4600, no lift planned).

Don't tow much and when I have, the stock Bridgestone P-metrics have been fine with no sway.

I do realize that the heavier tires will cost in terms of fuel and acceleration.


After typing this in, I think I have the answer but would still like to hear from everyone.

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Old 09-08-2019, 12:15 PM #2
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Haha, yeah, I would get a P-metric AT and be done. The Wildpeak AT3W would be my choice again for P metric.

Your new suspension should improve handling. LTE would improve that, too, but at the expense of comfort and the 5100s are not known for comfort. As for LTC, it is supposed to be the happy middle ground but I wonder if it is not the worst of both worlds instead.

With an LT you have to constantly fiddle with psi for different driving scenarios. The P metric goes everywhere at 32 psi.

I might move to LTE Toyo or Destination XT next year but that's because of very specific southern AZ realities. And even so I will probably just get another set of P Wildpeaks. Too many pluses to those.

EDIT: On the flip side, running LTD/E should be great for fine tunning, running anywhere from 15 on bone-jarring trails to 50 when fully loaded on western interstates. It is like having an adjustable spring rate. By contrast, P is ideal for not fiddling with psi, should not really be run under 28 except for very soft and deep sand. Similarly, even 36 is a bit too much on the freeway. I keep it there on long distance drives out of state and my center wears a bit faster than my edges.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:27 AM #3
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For you, Michelin Defender. Done.

Personally, i am opposite of MAST4R...P-metric Wildpeak is a waste. HEAVY P-metric without the toughness of LT tire. It weighs ALMOST as much as BFG KO2 LT! If you’re going to buy a heavy tire, then might as well get LT.

In addition, Wildpeak tires are SMALL for their stated size! Their 32” tire (31.5”) is actually more like 31.0” or less! So, you’re getting a smaller tire that weighs a lot. In fact, Wildpeak in stock size is SMALLER than your stock Bridgestone!

Oh, and because they are aggressively tread, they make noise on the highway where you will spend most of your time. And if you are OK with the noise, then might as well get an all-terrain LT tire.

Since your off-roading is light...Michelin Defender will do just fine. OR if you want a tad more toughness without weight penalty, then Goodyear Adventure AT Kevlar is pretty good.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:30 PM #4
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I do wish the P-rated Wildpeaks were a little lighter. They're only 1lb lighter than a C-rated BFG KO2, which seems like a lot for a P-rated, 4-ply tire.

My driving habits are similar to you, OP, and one of the things I want to get away from with the KO2 is weight... it makes the truck noticeably sluggish off the line. I like the Wildpeaks in theory, but the Nitto Terra Grappler G2s are actually 6lbs less per tire than the Wildpeaks, which is part of what's keeping them on my list.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:14 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
For you, Michelin Defender. Done.

Personally, i am opposite of MAST4R...P-metric Wildpeak is a waste. HEAVY P-metric without the toughness of LT tire. It weighs ALMOST as much as BFG KO2 LT! If you’re going to buy a heavy tire, then might as well get LT.

In addition, Wildpeak tires are SMALL for their stated size! Their 32” tire (31.5”) is actually more like 31.0” or less! So, you’re getting a smaller tire that weighs a lot. In fact, Wildpeak in stock size is SMALLER than your stock Bridgestone!

Oh, and because they are aggressively tread, they make noise on the highway where you will spend most of your time. And if you are OK with the noise, then might as well get an all-terrain LT tire.

Since your off-roading is light...Michelin Defender will do just fine. OR if you want a tad more toughness without weight penalty, then Goodyear Adventure AT Kevlar is pretty good.
In 265 70 17 the Widlpeak is 31.65 with most Ps at 31.7 and some as low as 31.4. The LTs in my size are usually 31.6-31.9". The Wildpeak is also a super wide 265 at 8.9" tread vs 8.3" for the stock tire you reference.

The LTC KO2 is the same weight as a P metric Wildpeak. Neither has a 3-ply sidewall, the KO2 has an extra polyester tread ply. It will be marginally stronger in certain desert scenarios and also last a little longer. It is also inferior on road and requires fiddling with psi offroad. You have an AWD and a V8 not to mention a much superior stock suspension so your situation is very different.

Also, it is very hard to waste 142/tire when the tire has the longest and most positive thread on this forum and when several of us have driven all sorts of terrain--and for lots of miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
I do wish the P-rated Wildpeaks were a little lighter. They're only 1lb lighter than a C-rated BFG KO2, which seems like a lot for a P-rated, 4-ply tire.

My driving habits are similar to you, OP, and one of the things I want to get away from with the KO2 is weight... it makes the truck noticeably sluggish off the line. I like the Wildpeaks in theory, but the Nitto Terra Grappler G2s are actually 6lbs less per tire than the Wildpeaks, which is part of what's keeping them on my list.
The reason the Wildpeaks are heavy is that they use wide steel belts and regular steel rather than high-strength steel. The latter is not used to make the tires stronger but rather lighter. So strength is a wash.

Those who want a high-tech tire, may want to consider the Destination AT2 which is very promising and only 37lb in 265 70 17. Like the Wildpeak and the Revo 3 and the Destination XT, they use wide steel belts but unlike Falken, Bridgestone uses high-tech steel making their tires lighter and pricier.

3-ply sidewall tires are a different conversation. You get strength but also weight and LTE stiffness (except for MTs in 255 75 which are available in C load).

I am not yet sure what I will do next year, TBD. The P Wildpeak, the coming Toyo AT III, the coming MAxxis Razr AT, and the Destination XT will be scrutinized endlessly on my end. For the Wildpeak, I want to see how it handles the Sonoran desert in Winter 2. I might trade some performance for longevity. Or not. TBD! I might even return to having two sets.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:41 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAST4R View Post
In 265 70 17 the Widlpeak is 31.65 with most Ps at 31.7 and some as low as 31.4. The LTs in my size are usually 31.6-31.9". The Wildpeak is also a super wide 265 at 8.9" tread vs 8.3" for the stock tire you reference.

The LTC KO2 is the same weight as a P metric Wildpeak. Neither has a 3-ply sidewall, the KO2 has an extra polyester tread ply. It will be marginally stronger in certain desert scenarios and also last a little longer. It is also inferior on road and requires fiddling with psi offroad. You have an AWD and a V8 not to mention a much superior stock suspension so your situation is very different.

Also, it is very hard to waste 142/tire when the tire has the longest and most positive thread on this forum and when several of us have driven all sorts of terrain--and for lots of miles.
You canNOT look at "31.x" spec. That is not accurate. You have to look at the REVOLUTION / MILE for true measure of tire diameter.

Below...all STOCK size (265/70/17) and P-metric unless otherwise stated:

Bridgestone Dueler HT (stock tire).....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 39 lbs.

Falken Wildpeak AT3W......REV/mile = 668. Weight = 46.5 lbs.

BFG KO2 LT-C.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 45-46 lbs. (Two versions of this tire with two different weights.)

BFG KO2 LT-E.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 53 lbs.

Michelin Defender....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 39 lbs.

Michelin Defender LT-E.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 48 lbs.



Notice something? Wildpeaks ARE indeed the smallest tire of the bunch because it's revolution per mile is HIGHEST. Yet, it weighs almost the heaviest! A heavy tire that is small....bad combo IMHO.

But, yes, Wildpeaks ARE cheap. But you get what you pay for. Cheap steel plies. Smaller than stated size. Heavy.

In fact, IF you get Wildpeaks, your 4runner will be LOWER than other stock 4runners. Less ground clearance. And yet, you get worst fuel economy and ride/handling.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:21 AM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
You canNOT look at "31.x" spec. That is not accurate. You have to look at the REVOLUTION / MILE for true measure of tire diameter.

Below...all STOCK size (265/70/17) and P-metric unless otherwise stated:

Bridgestone Dueler HT (stock tire).....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 39 lbs.

Falken Wildpeak AT3W......REV/mile = 668. Weight = 46.5 lbs.

BFG KO2 LT-C.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 46 lbs.

Michelin Defender....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 39 lbs.

Michelin Defender LT-E.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 48 lbs.
I'm not familiar with how you calculated this, but can I ask how the Terra Grappler G2 factors in here - for revolutions per mile? I think the P-Rated weighs 41lbs.

Specs: Nitto Terra Grappler G2 | America's Tire
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:43 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko View Post
I'm not familiar with how you calculated this, but can I ask how the Terra Grappler G2 factors in here - for revolutions per mile? I think the P-Rated weighs 41lbs.

Specs: Nitto Terra Grappler G2 | America's Tire
Terra Grappler G2 All-Terrain Light Truck Radial Tires | Nitto Tire

Nittos website, unfortunately, does not state REV/mile. I got above info for the other tires either from TireRack.com and/or tire manufacturer's sites.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:41 PM #9
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Perhaps I found the answer to my own question: Nitto Terra Grappler G2 265/70R17.

Copying @Thai's chart:

Bridgestone Dueler LTH (stock tire).....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 40 lbs. Diameter = 31.65".

Falken Wildpeak A/T3W......REV/mile = 668. Weight = 47 lbs. Diameter = 31.65".

BFG KO2 LT-C.....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 48 lbs. Diameter = 31.65".

Michelin Defender LTX....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 40 lbs. Diameter = 31.6".

Nitto Terra Grappler G2....REV/mile = 657. Weight = 41 lbs. Diameter = 31.65"

So for every mile you drive, the Falken is making 11 more revolutions than every other tire on this list. At 30k miles, it's made 3,300,000 more revolutions than the other tires.
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:18 AM #10
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You canNOT look at "31.x" spec. That is not accurate. You have to look at the REVOLUTION / MILE for true measure of tire diameter..
Hmm...but is it? Is the tire a rigid circle?

See this:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...sp?techid=203&

And see Falken's site because they list 4 tires at 31.7 each with different revolutions: 657, 660, 668, 671.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:48 AM #11
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Originally Posted by MAST4R View Post
Hmm...but is it? Is the tire a rigid circle?

See this:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...sp?techid=203&

And see Falken's site because they list 4 tires at 31.7 each with different revolutions: 657, 660, 668, 671.
Yeah, that TireRack link convinces me that REV/MI is real world more than the "31.7" spec.

Also look at this thread: Not all 32" tires are the same....

Clearly the Falken AT3W is small for the size.

As for other Falken tires with different REV/MI, i think that due to different manufacturing processes. One class of Falkens may be made bigger than another class of Falkens. I am ONLY talking about Wildpeak AT3W.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:22 PM #12
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I'm far less educated than either @Thai or @MAST4R on this subject, but when you compare the diameter of the KO2 and the AT3W

KO2: 31.65" and 657 REV/mile

AT3W: 31.7" and 668 REV/mile

...if the AT3W is truly .5" larger in diameter, how is it possibly doing more revolutions per mile?

The math isn't adding up to me...? But this is what TireRack says about the REV/mile spec:

Quote:
Tire revolutions per mile cannot be calculated by simple math because the tire tread and sidewall bend and stretch (deflect) when the load of the vehicle presses the tire against the road.

Since the resulting loaded or rolling radius is less than half the tire's published overall diameter (which would only reflect the tire's unloaded radius), calculating the tire's absolute rolling circumference isn't possible.

Additionally, a tire transitions from an unloaded to loaded state as it rolls, continuously flattening where the tread footprint comes into contact with the road. These continuous transitions result in some tread slippage, again increasing the tire revolutions per mile beyond what simple math would indicate.
That makes me wonder if the P-Rated AT3W is a more pliable, softer material... allowing it to "slip" more against the road compared to a LT tire?
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:34 PM #13
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I'm far less educated than either @Thai or @MAST4R on this subject, but when you compare the diameter of the KO2 and the AT3W

KO2: 31.65" and 657 REV/mile

AT3W: 31.7" and 668 REV/mile

...if the AT3W is truly .5" larger in diameter, how is it possibly doing more revolutions per mile?

The math isn't adding up to me...? But this is what TireRack says about the REV/mile spec:



That makes me wonder if the P-Rated AT3W is a more pliable, softer material... allowing it to "slip" more against the road compared to a LT tire?
Could be...but....

See this post: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3351100-post6.html

The pictures in the post...granted on a Lexus GX, not 4runner, and with tire size different (265/65/18; 31.5")...you can clearly see that Michelin Defender is significantly taller (bigger diameter) than Falken AT3W of the same size. Michelin is huge and actually rubs against KDSS bar, while the Falken had plenty of room to spare. And the pics were done UNLOADED because they were taken under the spare tire.

So, while both are technically in the 31.5" category (265/65/18), Michelin Defender with REV/MI of 659 is clearly taller UNLOADED than Falken AT3W with REV/MI of 675.

Thus, Rev/Mi is accurate not just loaded, but unloaded as well. It shows you how one tire compares to another of same size.

And this is why on ClubLexus GX forum, there was so much confusion about 265/65/18 because one person says that there is no rub, while another says that it rubs. One person swears one thing; another swears the opposite.......until I looked more closely at the specs of tire(s) in question and found Rev/Mi discrepancy. And it explained everything.
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Could be...but....

See this post: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3351100-post6.html

The pictures in the post...granted on a Lexus GX, not 4runner, and with tire size different (265/65/18; 31.5")...you can clearly see that Michelin Defender is significantly taller (bigger diameter) than Falken AT3W of the same size. Michelin is huge and actually rubs against KDSS bar, while the Falken had plenty of room to spare. And the pics were done UNLOADED because they were taken under the spare tire.

So, while both are technically in the 31.5" category (265/65/18), Michelin Defender with REV/MI of 659 is clearly taller UNLOADED than Falken AT3W with REV/MI of 675.

Thus, Rev/Mi is accurate not just loaded, but unloaded as well. It shows you how one tire compares to another of same size.

And this is why on ClubLexus GX forum, there was so much confusion about 265/65/18 because one person says that there is no rub, while another says that it rubs. One person swears one thing; another swears the opposite.......until I looked more closely at the specs of tire(s) in question and found Rev/Mi discrepancy. And it explained everything.
So is Falken just not being truthful about their specs? Trying to figure out how else this makes sense.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:28 PM #15
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So is Falken just not being truthful about their specs? Trying to figure out how else this makes sense.
Email them, they have been quite responsive in my experience.

Thai is talking about a different size altogether. I actually have Wildpeaks in the size we are discussing and I guess I measure ground clearance about as often as anybody

The different Falken rev numbers are all for different sizes Wildpeaks with 31.7" listed dm. Yet diff revs. As explained by the Tire Rack link, there is no simple connection since these are not metal discs but offroad tires with big tread blocks that flex and move differently from a street tire let alone a solid disk.

Compared to the stock tire, the Wildpeaks are huge. Same dm but much wider. I placed them side by side and could not believe the difference.

In 265 they are standard size for P. The KO2s are 0.05" larger, not the Wildpeaks 0.5" larger.

Most importantly, all this is nonsense. It is completely irrelevant if a P is 31.5 or 31.7. Makes no difference at all.

On the other hand, it does matter with LTs because those need to be aired down. I have not bothered to check with the 4Runner tire size, but on my 225 65 17 KO2s I lost 0.5" clearance when I aired down to 20.

Btw, the Nokian AT Plus have aramid sidewalls and should be pretty light in 275 70 17. I will have to email and ask why they market it for "light offroading" and what tread plies they have. Considering the picture of the tire flexing over sharp rock on the site they may simply be too cautious and implying the tire is not for Johnson Valley...

I doubt a Finnish tire makes sense for me in the desert but I think they should be more popular than they are. The couple of reviews that can be found indicate that the 40k mileage warranty is a conservative estimate.
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