09-22-2009, 01:39 PM
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrowczynski
There are some serious debates on that snowflake symbol in this forum 
"You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S."
"In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in “RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions”. Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads."
Now, I'll admit that many tires may be able to meet the traction test w/o having the snowflake symbol. But as a selling point (people looking for severe snow tires), why wouldn't they test and then market it as such?
Right now, I'm looking at the Michelin's and nothing has the snowflake and is not a pure winter tire. So I broaden my search and check out other tires like the Goodyear Silent Armors. If the M/S *had* the snowflake, it would simply be another sale. |
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I would need to know more about their testing procedures before I would put any real faith into the snowflake symbol. What if the testing is biased toward just one type of snow? Seriously, I've had my own 4Runner act completely different on different types of snow. In some types of snow, it's like an unstoppable tank. Other types of snow make it seem much more nervous. I know that no one tire can truly excel at every possible condition, but I've driven in the snow enough to know that my tires will respond differently in any given type of snow/road condition. That's why I'm not big on using the snowflake symbol to determine if a tire is truly a good snow performer.
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09-22-2009, 01:48 PM
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#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMAIDEN
Nittos have no snowflake symbol and the BFG KOs do and from my driving experiences the Nittos have much better rearend control and cornering bite than the KOs I've driven on.
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And yet, others (ex: p nut) have the opposite experience than you...and we all know how much you love the Nittos!  Put down those blinders RonM!
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09-22-2009, 02:07 PM
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#18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyTech99
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I would need to know more about their testing procedures before I would put any real faith into the snowflake symbol. What if the testing is biased toward just one type of snow? Seriously, I've had my own 4Runner act completely different on different types of snow. In some types of snow, it's like an unstoppable tank. Other types of snow make it seem much more nervous. I know that no one tire can truly excel at every possible condition, but I've driven in the snow enough to know that my tires will respond differently in any given type of snow/road condition. That's why I'm not big on using the snowflake symbol to determine if a tire is truly a good snow performer.
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But then what is the alternative?
A standardized test measures "something" in some situation. The snowflake gives us at least an inkling that the tire performs well in that situation (compared to non-snowflake tires).
Infinite conditions exist: Powder, wet pack snow, snow over ice, snow over asphalt, snow with slush, ice, etc. You're absolutely right. for one person (or group of people) to say XXX tires are the best, ignores a lot more variables than a standardized test.
So I do need to ask again: What other objective criteria / methodology is available? I'm getting ready to plop down $1000 on a set of new tires for the up coming winter season and if there are other alternatives, I'd like to hear them.
PS. Just gotta add this. I've spent the last few days poring over reviews and recommendations on soooo many sites. If there's a short answer for "whats the best all terrain tire mix for long highway commutes and high sierra nevada snow" I'd LOVE to hear it.
Last edited by pmrowczynski; 09-22-2009 at 02:12 PM.
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09-22-2009, 02:33 PM
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#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrowczynski
A standardized test measures "something" in some situation. The snowflake gives us at least an inkling that the tire performs well in that situation (compared to non-snowflake tires).
Infinite conditions exist: Powder, wet pack snow, snow over ice, snow over asphalt, snow with slush, ice, etc. You're absolutely right. for one person (or group of people) to say XXX tires are the best, ignores a lot more variables than a standardized test.
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Exactly...i have been arguing that same point(s)...it is hard for some people to understand that!!
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09-22-2009, 02:44 PM
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#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrowczynski
There are some serious debates on that snowflake symbol in this forum
"You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S."
"In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in “RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions”. Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads."
Now, I'll admit that many tires may be able to meet the traction test w/o having the snowflake symbol. But as a selling point (people looking for severe snow tires), why wouldn't they test and then market it as such?
Right now, I'm looking at the Michelin's and nothing has the snowflake and is not a pure winter tire. So I broaden my search and check out other tires like the Goodyear Silent Armors. If the M/S *had* the snowflake, it would simply be another sale. |
GYSA are a good one, my friend here drives those year round. A better AT snow choice would be the Nokian Vativva.
The snowflake can be important in some areas that require you to have snow tires or chains. The snowflake is the defiinition of a snow tire at the checkpoints for some silly reason.
A real snow tire is superior. Period.
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09-22-2009, 02:45 PM
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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
A real snow tire is superior. Period.
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Yup...and thus, most (if not all) snow tires are snowflaked.
More on the snowflake debate: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showth...threadid=42054
My view in a nutshell: Does this symbol gaurantee that a tire with it is the best in snow?? No. But, it gives me peace of mind that this tire has pass at least some control testing to assure that it is not a bad tire in the snow.
BTW, we're going a bit off-topic.
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09-22-2009, 03:40 PM
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#22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmrowczynski
But then what is the alternative?
A standardized test measures "something" in some situation. The snowflake gives us at least an inkling that the tire performs well in that situation (compared to non-snowflake tires).
Infinite conditions exist: Powder, wet pack snow, snow over ice, snow over asphalt, snow with slush, ice, etc. You're absolutely right. for one person (or group of people) to say XXX tires are the best, ignores a lot more variables than a standardized test.
So I do need to ask again: What other objective criteria / methodology is available? I'm getting ready to plop down $1000 on a set of new tires for the up coming winter season and if there are other alternatives, I'd like to hear them.
PS. Just gotta add this. I've spent the last few days poring over reviews and recommendations on soooo many sites. If there's a short answer for "whats the best all terrain tire mix for long highway commutes and high sierra nevada snow" I'd LOVE to hear it.
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The alternative for you might be different than the alternative for me. Personally, I rely on my own experiences mostly, and somewhat on the experiences of others. I'll give you a good example right now---- I found a snowplower's message forum and I came across a few threads where they were discussing tires. Most, if not all of them were plowing with their personal vehicles, so they were able to research and choose whatever tires they felt would work well for them. Just about everyone that posted on the threads agreed that the Cooper Discoverer ATR worked very well on a plow truck. They all seemed to really praise the ATR's performance in snow. Based mostly upon that, I decided to purchase a set of ATRs for my 4Runner. This will be my 3rd winter with them and I think they are probably the best tire for snow that I've ever owned (not including dedicated snow tires). And guess what? That's right....no snowflake symbol on them anywhere. Yet now that I have my own experience with them, I'd rate them very highly in snow performance, snowflake symbol or not!
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09-25-2009, 08:59 PM
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#23
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It looks like I will have a set of the new Michelin LTX M/S 2 tires on beginning next Friday.
Best price and no issues with going from 265/65 to 265/70 came from Discount Tire. They even beat the Costco price where Costco has a $70 off coupon at the moment. The lack of rationale behind Costco refusing to install anything that is not factory size (according to their position on what is factory size) was too much hassle to deal with regardless...
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10-03-2009, 04:15 AM
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#24
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265/70 17 Michelin LTX M/S 2 tires were installed this morning. Thus far I like the filled out wheel wells and think that the 4Runner handles better. I am expecting and hoping for significantly better traction in the snow than what was provided with the factory Dunlops.
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10-03-2009, 08:05 AM
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EEtM33t
265/70 17 Michelin LTX M/S 2 tires were installed this morning. Thus far I like the filled out wheel wells and think that the 4Runner handles better. I am expecting and hoping for significantly better traction in the snow than what was provided with the factory Dunlops.
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10-28-2009, 09:11 AM
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#26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ3Flyr
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See here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=56640
The tires have been great and are definitely an improvement over the Dunlops.
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12-02-2009, 11:32 AM
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#27
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Hello,
Well after some careful consideration between Revo 2 and LTX M/S², I decided on the Michelins. I was able to get 62K miles out of the factory Cross Terrains and wanted to try Michelin again. Its a great tire.
No noise! Very quiet tire for a treadwear rating of 720. You would think the tire would be a little noisy for having a tough tread, but I am pleased. They handle well in dry or wet conditions, better than the CT's. The traction control has not activated since I installed these tires, and the CT's would activate it every time I turned a corner after a stop.
I don't offroad much so I wanted a tire that can go 80K without an issue. And frankly, I just don't trust Firestone. BFG T/A KO was another consideration but a little aggressive for my driving habits and I wanted a good non jaw breaking ride.
The LTX M/S² is a good tire worthy of consideration.
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12-05-2009, 12:58 AM
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#28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My1stT4R
Hello,
Well after some careful consideration between Revo 2 and LTX M/S², I decided on the Michelins. I was able to get 62K miles out of the factory Cross Terrains and wanted to try Michelin again. Its a great tire.
No noise! Very quiet tire for a treadwear rating of 720. You would think the tire would be a little noisy for having a tough tread, but I am pleased. They handle well in dry or wet conditions, better than the CT's. The traction control has not activated since I installed these tires, and the CT's would activate it every time I turned a corner after a stop.
I don't offroad much so I wanted a tire that can go 80K without an issue. And frankly, I just don't trust Firestone. BFG T/A KO was another consideration but a little aggressive for my driving habits and I wanted a good non jaw breaking ride.
The LTX M/S² is a good tire worthy of consideration.
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Thanks for your review. My wife's CRV has the bridgstone duelers that came with my urban runner that I replaced for CTs, but her's, after 2 years are balding. I was looking to replace them with CTs but considered the MS2s since they look to be a good replacement for the CTs as far as all-season and good on reducing road noise.
How is the driving comfort compared to the CTs? To me, the CTs are awesome and seem to really make the truck drive much smoother - are the MS2s pretty similar?
Thanks!
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12-05-2009, 01:06 AM
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#29
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that's because it snows in Texas. 
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12-05-2009, 08:51 AM
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#30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ougrad1
How is the driving comfort compared to the CTs? To me, the CTs are awesome and seem to really make the truck drive much smoother - are the MS2s pretty similar?
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The ride of the M/S² is similar, if not better than the CTs. The M/S² is a little stiff due the threadwear rating, the ride is smooth but a little stiff, a little bouncy at times, like a truck which the T4R is. The ride is good and better than I expected.
The CTs were the best wearing tire I have driven on. They did not bald on me and after 62000 miles with rotation every 5000 Miles, there was enough tread for another 5-10K miles.
The M/S² is about $40 cheaper per tire than the CTs which was another consideration. If properly rotated, I should get 80K miles from the M/S² easy.
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