07-01-2007, 03:06 PM
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#31
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2005 4Runner SE V8 4X2, Galactic Gray
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07-01-2007, 11:44 PM
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#32
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10-10-2007, 11:09 PM
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#33
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Can't help convince you for the FJ. Maybe a 4R though?
I was in the same boat. Was waiting to get my FJ for over a year. Finally went to the dealer, cash in hand, ready to buy. I took a test drive and HATED it. Great performance and all that, love the fact that you can almost hose it out. The deal-killer was visibility. I felt like I was sitting in a box. Could not see out about 60% of the sides, and nothing out back except a bit of SUV/Truck rooftops. Drove me nuts, and I walked away disappointed. I was ready to take one home before that drive.
Decided to give the 4Runner another look (thought it was beyond my budget). Got a great deal on a 4X4 SR5 and glad I did it. Much nicer truck, better visibility, and when I'm not on the trails, I have a family and a job to go to. Its perfect.
Toyota dropped the ball on the FJ.They almost built a perfect Off-Roader, but F-ed up in the details. I hope they will figure it out soon. They cannot sell these things any more. They sold at a good price the first few months. Now they sit on the lot for weeks without even a test drive.
-Chris
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10-10-2007, 11:45 PM
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#34
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Drove an FJ
I was at the Pomona (CA) Off Road Expo and took a short drive in a trail team FJ, a black one that said Gibson on the side.
It would have been more illuminating if I was not distracted by my "baby sitter" who started out assuming I knew nothing about off roading and who would not vary his little spiel about each baby step to take. He did not hear anything that I said.
When we came to the alternating whoop-di-doos that would pitch some tires in the air he noticed that I had my left foot on the brake at the same time as my right foot on the gas and said "oh" and "would you like to try the e-locker?"
The he started to ask questions about what I drove, how it was modified and where I had gone. Things I had already told him in the first 5 minutes.... but he never heard.
Since I already have a 4Runner I did not need a long time in the FJ to decide it was not for me. The shorter body and wheelbase were an advantage but less visibility was the knockout. Maybe a future gen of FJ will get my attention.
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10-11-2007, 11:46 AM
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#35
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Is Toyota having problems selling FJs? I haven't seen it from the dealer that I use for some of my 4Runner fix-its.
Of course production may have caught up with demand and the vehcile really isn't for the family toting duties and outward visibilty seems to be more how the person handles it and I agree the visiblity does suck for the avarage driver that's used to driving in a full glass greenhouse of an SUV but once you get used to it it's not so bad.
The FJ is for people who really want to off road but dont' want a pickup. The FJ is much more capable in stock trim for the off roader vs the 4Runner. I'd personally take the 4Runner and throw some mods at it but a manual tranny and rear diff lock still is missed.
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10-11-2007, 12:09 PM
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#36
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Quote:
Originally posted by RonMAIDEN
Is Toyota having problems selling FJs? I haven't seen it from the dealer that I use for some of my 4Runner fix-its.
Of course production may have caught up with demand and the vehcile really isn't for the family toting duties and outward visibilty seems to be more how the person handles it and I agree the visiblity does suck for the avarage driver that's used to driving in a full glass greenhouse of an SUV but once you get used to it it's not so bad.
The FJ is for people who really want to off road but dont' want a pickup. The FJ is much more capable in stock trim for the off roader vs the 4Runner. I'd personally take the 4Runner and throw some mods at it but a manual tranny and rear diff lock still is missed.
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Stock I would put them at a draw except for an advantage with the locker. I've had both manual and autos and prefer the auto.
In stock trim they have almost exactly the same suspension and drive train. The lengths and widths vary as do wheelbase and the advantages will vary with terrain.
I've driven both and do not agree the FJ has any particular advantage in stock trim.
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10-14-2007, 08:32 PM
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#37
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I used to have one...and I hadno complaints at all. The only reason I decided to trade the Cruiser in for a 4Runner is because of the fact that my wife is 4"11' and plans to have my kids soon:0). It'll be pretty tough for her to get the kid in and out of the, to her, high vehicle.
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Last edited by DigableKid; 10-15-2007 at 12:36 AM.
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10-15-2007, 03:24 AM
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#38
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Quote:
Originally posted by teotwaki
Stock I would put them at a draw except for an advantage with the locker. I've had both manual and autos and prefer the auto.
In stock trim they have almost exactly the same suspension and drive train. The lengths and widths vary as do wheelbase and the advantages will vary with terrain.
I've driven both and do not agree the FJ has any particular advantage in stock trim.
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The FJ doesn't have a huge advantage but it'll go farther than a stock Runner will. There's a little more clearance and the approach and departure angles are better in the FJ and the locker can make a huge diff,a locker makes a diff in the 3rd gens vs ones that aren't equipped.
Plus the rear diff lock and the VSC can now work in conjunction with each other which makes another solid difference.
I've seen plenty of stock FJs doing some pretty impressive stuff on youtube but it's hard to compare since 4th gen off road vids are pretty rare.
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10-15-2007, 11:07 PM
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#40
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Quote:
Originally posted by teotwaki
FJ ground clearance difference is as others have pointed out: due to stock 17" wheels vs. 4rRunners stock 16" wheels
I'm still not convinced that either one has a clear advantage. Two stock vehicles and two great drivers can get the same results
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FJ ground clearance is more due to it's 32" tires while 4runners make due with 31" tires.
A few advantages of FJ over 4runner:
1. Underbody clearance is slightly better...the fuel tank is shaped to improve breakover angle...to tell you the truth, the wheelbase on the FJ is not all that short to really compromise it's fore-aft balance (as seen in Jeep Wrangler SWB)
2. Departure and approach angles are slightly better...remember, the spare tire is on the rear door, not underneath...thus, departure angle is significantly better
3. Suspension has significantly more travel due to thinner anti-roll bars and possibly other minor changes
4. Rear locker (optional)
5. Much more aggressive ATRAC (optional)
6. ATRAC + rear locker synchronization (very cool!)
7. Bigger tires (32")
8. More aftermarket support
9. Frame pre-drilled for rock sliders
That is all i can think of right now....
I would buy the 4runner because you can always mod it to compensate for the above. The FJ canNOT be modded to make it more practical.
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10-15-2007, 11:53 PM
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#41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thai
FJ ground clearance is more due to it's 32" tires while 4runners make due with 31" tires.
A few advantages of FJ over 4runner:
1. Underbody clearance is slightly better...the fuel tank is shaped to improve breakover angle...to tell you the truth, the wheelbase on the FJ is not all that short to really compromise it's fore-aft balance (as seen in Jeep Wrangler SWB)
2. Departure and approach angles are slightly better...remember, the spare tire is on the rear door, not underneath...thus, departure angle is significantly better
3. Suspension has significantly more travel due to thinner anti-roll bars and possibly other minor changes
4. Rear locker (optional)
5. Much more aggressive ATRAC (optional)
6. ATRAC + rear locker synchronization (very cool!)
7. Bigger tires (32")
8. More aftermarket support
9. Frame pre-drilled for rock sliders
That is all i can think of right now....
I would buy the 4runner because you can always mod it to compensate for the above. The FJ canNOT be modded to make it more practical.
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1. Interesting and a good point but when I see "slightly" with no real numbers then I have to discount a perceived advantage. Besides, the 4Runner has 4 gallons more gas so you do have to look at the entire argument, not just picking out pieces. I thought the FJ's wheelbase was a whole 3" shorter?
2. Tire is easily strapped to the roof of the 4Runner but when sticking to the "stock" rules...... agreed
3. "Significantly" = how may inches or fractions of an inch???
4. Agreed that it is a painless mod, probably cheaper than me adding an ARB
5. Subjective but would believe it to be true just knowing how good my ATRAC is
6. Huh? When you have an ARB locked ATRAC is effectively washed out to only the front wheels. Why is Toyota's e-locker any different/better?
7. Advantage to FJ in stock form
8. Finally changed: rear tire carriers, suspension, front and rear bumpers, sliders (not considering useless aftermarket fluff)
9. Wash. I have bolt on sliders. At least 3 companies make them now.
Again, I am not simply defending the 4Runner. I do see the FJ's advantages but they do not sway me away from my path. I just completed a multi-day Death Valley trip, totally self contained with an additional 20 gallons of gas on the roof and everything else inside. The FJ in the group was pulling a trailer to be able to carry enough expedition supplies.
After actually driving an FJ I felt as if I was driving a 4Runner that had a different body (fat/short) and wheelbase.
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Last edited by teotwaki; 10-15-2007 at 11:57 PM.
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10-16-2007, 08:38 AM
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#42
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Jim, i am confused...are you comparing YOUR 4runner with FJ Cruiser OR are we comparing stock vs. stock??
1. This is from Toyota's literature, not me. Since Toyota went to the extreme to reshape the gas tank, i would assume that it was for a good reason. Why would they do it otherwise (and advertise about it too)??
3. I don't know the exact inches of travel...but i do know that RTI (a more practical measure of wheel travel) of the FJ is around 490-500. 4runner is around 420. This is stock vs. stock. I would call this "significant." Every little bit helps while off-roading, esp. if you don't have lockers (stock vs. stock).
5. I can assure you that the OPTIONAL ATRAC on the FJ is a lot MORE aggressive than 4runner's system. I have off-roaded with both on several occasions. There is a reason why FJ's ATRAC is only for use in LOW range...because it's too aggressive for street use. I am not talking about TRAC that comes on every FJ...i am talking about the optional ATRAC.
6. Aren't we talking about stock vs. stock?? Therefore, FJ's synchronization is yet another advantage while off-roading, is it not??
7. Again, i am not comparing specific items here. Are you telling me that 4runner's aftermarket support is EQUAL to the FJ's??? Yes, 4runner does have aftermarket support, but it's nowhere near the variety that FJ has. FJ support is probably on-par with Jeep's. It's no contest IMHO.
8. Although your sliders are bolt-on, it's nice that FJ's frame came pre-drilled with holes from factory because that means that Toyota engineers have determined what spots are the best for attachment from a stress point of view. It's probably not a big deal, but for an anal person like myself, it's kinda gives me a peace of mind.
I agree with your last paragraph.
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10-16-2007, 09:56 AM
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#43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thai
Jim, i am confused...are you comparing YOUR 4runner with FJ Cruiser OR are we comparing stock vs. stock??
1. This is from Toyota's literature, not me. Since Toyota went to the extreme to reshape the gas tank, i would assume that it was for a good reason. Why would they do it otherwise (and advertise about it too)??
3. I don't know the exact inches of travel...but i do know that RTI (a more practical measure of wheel travel) of the FJ is around 490-500. 4runner is around 420. This is stock vs. stock. I would call this "significant." Every little bit helps while off-roading, esp. if you don't have lockers (stock vs. stock).
5. I can assure you that the OPTIONAL ATRAC on the FJ is a lot MORE aggressive than 4runner's system. I have off-roaded with both on several occasions. There is a reason why FJ's ATRAC is only for use in LOW range...because it's too aggressive for street use. I am not talking about TRAC that comes on every FJ...i am talking about the optional ATRAC.
6. Aren't we talking about stock vs. stock?? Therefore, FJ's synchronization is yet another advantage while off-roading, is it not??
7. Again, i am not comparing specific items here. Are you telling me that 4runner's aftermarket support is EQUAL to the FJ's??? Yes, 4runner does have aftermarket support, but it's nowhere near the variety that FJ has. FJ support is probably on-par with Jeep's. It's no contest IMHO.
8. Although your sliders are bolt-on, it's nice that FJ's frame came pre-drilled with holes from factory because that means that Toyota engineers have determined what spots are the best for attachment from a stress point of view. It's probably not a big deal, but for an anal person like myself, it's kinda gives me a peace of mind.
I agree with your last paragraph.
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Okay and in the name of fun (which this is!) here are replies
In general, I am trying to stick to stock vs. stock unless that is so anal as to ignore the obvious
1. If Toyota literature has an exact spec that is one thing but we all know it is also a sales document.
3. C'mon, a 96 Kia Sportage has an RTI of 471 and it is better than a 4th Gen 4runner too?? If you want to say the FJ has "more travel" than stick to that and give me numbers but switching to RTI mid-argument doesn't work.
5. a 4WD 4Runner comes with ATRAC whether you want it or not. Are you saying that a 4WD FJC can be ordered without ATRAC because it is "optional"? Are you talking about old 4RUnners or 4TH gens as I think that FJC and 4th Gens ATRACs are the exact same.
6. Look, if any locker is engaged then ATRAC will sense no wheel speed difference and be effectively shut off on that axle. That is not an advantage, that is just the reality of the combination.
7. I never said on par, but I did say that the 4th Gen 4runner has many choices now of quality parts. The FJ does have more, but a lot of those are dubious such as the aftermarket Johnny Joint front links that fall off. Besides, almost all FJC skids, suspension and so on all fit the 4Runner. Body specific items such as bumpers and roof racks will not but their are very good ones for just the 4Runner anyhow.
8. If you really wanted peace of mind you would weld on the sliders. An FJC has bolt on sliders factory engineered to bolt on. A 4th Gen can also have sliders engineered to bolt on. So Toyota engineers are better at all things. Tell that to folks whose engine bay sheetmetal is ripping...
Gotta run to work! Type to you later...
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10-16-2007, 10:51 AM
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#44
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Jim,
You call the game...i only follow the rules.
1. Then, can you explain to me why Toyota went great length to document the fact that they redesigned the gas tank?? Why did they do that when they could have just stuck to original 4runner tank?? Is it to improve breakover angle...or more like, to justify the bloated breakover angle of 28 degrees?? BTW, your 4runner does NOT have 28 degree breakover. I am not sure if the FJ has it either, but at least, Toyota is doing something to get to that number realistically.
3. Ok, i am confused here. RTI is a measure of the overall vehicle's suspension travel and frame flex, right?? And both the FJ and 4runner frames are more or less equivalent...thus, RTI scores between the two vehicle reflect suspension travel, right?? So, if a rig has more wheel travel, then it usually has better RTI, right?? I can dig up FJ brochure to see if i can get some "wheel travel inches" for you later when i get home.
5. I am talking 4th gen 4runner vs. FJ. You better look again...ATRAC is a common nomenclature...it does not mean that ATRAC on 4runner is same as ATRAC on FJ. FJ has TRAC from factory. ATRAC is an OFF-ROAD option on the FJ. And from two off-road trips where i had the chance to compare the two system, it's not even close. ATRAC on the FJ is super aggressive...stopping a tire spinning quickly. ATRAC on 4runner allowed a lot more wheelspin. Remember, this is why ATRAC on FJ can ONLY be activated in LOW range. It is an off-road tool. It is calibrated much more aggressively than 4runner's system. YOUR ATRAC system works more like an all-season all-terrain system.
6. Previously, Toyota shut off ATRAC when the rear locker is engaged. The fact that FJ has a rear locker gives it an advantage. Agree? In the past, some have criticize the FJ because once you lock the rear, you lose traction up front (due to ATRAC shutting off)...thus, some have argued that the rear locker's advantage is small. So, now, the newer FJ comes from factory with ATRAC and rear locker synch...thus, making the advantage gap that much more.
7. And this is exactly what i meant. I never said the 4runner had no aftermarket support. I just said that the FJ had more choices...thus, my original statement about AFTERMARKET SUPPORT advantage of the FJ.
8. Good point. As more people take the 4runner off-road, i wonder if it's only time before we see this?? The body rip on the FJ is seemingly due to stress from off-roading. And there are a lot more people off-roading in the FJ than 4runner. The question is...what did toyota do differently in the FJ/Prado than in the 4runner??
Talk to you later.
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10-16-2007, 11:00 AM
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#45
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Also in the next two years the gap will be bigger since the FJ will always be a solid vehicel for off roading while the next gen Runner will be closer to a larger Highlander and this argument will be a moot point.
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