I'm thinking of the SF Bay Area specifically, but this question applies to anyone who lives in an area that gets NO snow or ice, but fairly regularly travels a long distance -- many miles -- to get to snow. Maybe every few weeks, but not constantly. Do you switch out your tires / wheels twice a year or just deal?

In an informal poll of friends, only one person I know actually switches to three-peak-snowflake winter tires for the 4 winter months. The rest just leave their so-called all-season tires on (and carry chains, which is often a requirement in California).

(This is unrelated to the question of whether anyone feels any "all-season" or "M+S" (non-snowflake) tires are good or bad for winter driving. It's just about whether you switch.)

I've been having this internal debate about it for years. Folks on this forum seem to like to be prepared but also practical. $1200+ for a separate set of tires & wheels is a lot when you would only "use" them a handful of times per year (and put thousands of highway miles on soft rubber) . . . but I'm sure it doesn't seem like so much when your family is spinning down the highway into a ditch or worse.

I used to live in LA and stay in Mammoth for long periods in the winter.
I now live in Denver and spend a lot of time in the snow.

Both occasions I had ATs with snowflake ratings and did fine.
In the former I had chains. In the present I don't even have that.

I had snow tires for two seasons while out here. Decided it wasn't a huge need here.

I live in snow, but just wanted to point out that you can often find CHEAPO winter tires on your local classifieds for $2-300 for a set of 4. Moreso deals in the summer. Another set of steelies would be $100, all mounted and ready to go for less than $500.

Scored a set of Nokian Hakkwhatever tires for $300 this past summer. 90% tread (9-10/32")
And if you have a garage and a few jackstands, and a cordless/electric impact, you can mount/dismount on the 4runner in 30 minutes flat.

If you do all of the above, your $500 winter setup will last you MANY years.. probably have to replace them due to dryrot before the tread is actually low!

I live in Utah. I used to own a snow plow company in Montana. I've never put snow tires on any 4x4 vehicle I've ever owned. I did put them on front wheel drive cars. I wouldn't drive a rwd only car in snow country during the winter.

Good all season tires are fine for any snow you'll encounter on a main public road. Summer tires are not adequate though. Last weekend there was a BMW X5 that couldn't make it out of the parking lot at the ski hill followed by a Subaru outback who also couldn't make it. My RX350 on all season tires had no issues at all. Tires matter - but you don't need snow tires for most situations with snow. Most all season tires with a good amount of sipes will work just fine.

We had to get out and push this guy because he had bad tires.

Google Photos


My .02.

That's a great idea. I hadn't considered buying used.

All I've ever had on my 4Runners(2nd gen and 3rd) are Michelin LTX M+S tires and never had a need for anything more. I lived near Pollock Pines, out in the country, off of some squirrely country roads and commuted down to Sacramento for 20 years and didn't feel the need for more tire. I've spent a lot of time driving over the Sierra in the winter as well, now live in Reno, and still no need for more tire or chains.
Between those tires and Low4 the only thing that's ever stopped me on snow is the depth... Once the tires come off the ground even studded snow tires won't help.

If you want to avoid the ditch or rear ending the car in front of you, purchase snow tires.

That's exactly it. Doesn't matter if you're in bad conditions 120 days a year or 1 day a year if that one day is the one when you're caught out. And I have the 4Runner in large part for capability and safety in bad conditions . . . so why wouldn't I try to do the safest thing.

But . . . again . . . a whole bunch more money when, as my wife correctly points out, I just bought the car.

If you can't keep from getting in a crash - you're doing it wrong. You should probably stay home. The difference between good AT tires and snow tires is significant ~ 20%. But so is the person behind the wheel. The trucks plowing the roads you're driving on usually won't have snow tires on them.

Also consider that the difference between an AT tire vs a snow tire on dry roads is about the same difference as the reverse on snow. You'll have to choose a tire that is better on one and worse on the other.

There are some crossover tires that could be worth considering like the cooper ATW that would do well on snow/ice and pretty good all around too.

I'm not sure I follow the first point. Lots of people end up in accidents through no fault of their own, ice or no ice, where better tires might have helped. If you're saying "Know your vehicle's capabilities," then yes I agree.

But if you take the same driver and vehicle, and increase the capabilities of the tires by 20%, that would seem to reduce the likelihood of a crash assuming you're using the same degree of care. But... as you point out...

Definitely! That too is part of the calculus: For . . . let's say . . . 90% of the time, your tires are LESS capable than OEM tires (longer stopping distance, etc.) but for 10% of the time they are MORE capable. And that 10% is probably far more dangerous per mile.

It's an impossible multivariate analysis, which is why I'm so curious where people in my situation land.

Do we have an actuary in the house?

I didn't realize chains were a requirement with a 4x4.

Anyway, the CHP just seems to close the roads and leave people stranded whenever there's snow.

My main point was that you really don't need snow tires for snowy roads. Yeah, they're normally about 20% better than all terrain tires. And yes, that matters in some situations. But you really should never be putting yourself in a situation where 20% shorter stopping distance is the difference between a crash and not a crash. People don't normally drive at the margin. And you shouldn't be driving at the margin on public roads very often if ever. Especially on snowy roads. If you can't adjust your driving to manage snowy roads with all terrain tires - you really should not be driving. For the rest of us, we manage to get around pretty well in snow and ice.

With the caveat that real summer performance tires are a totally different animal. If you go driving in snow on Michelin Pilot Sport tires - you're going to have a bad time. And that's California's biggest problem with snow. For most people most of the time summer performance tires are a fine choice. When a few inches of snow falls, now it's a big problem. Add the stupidity of a handful of people and you end up with laws like mandatory snow tires. Remember in Houston during the hurricane when that lady drove around the road blocks and into the underpass full of water, then her car sank and she downed because she couldn't get out? It's remarkable, but people like that really do exist. And you're on the road with them...

I'm not against snow tires. I usually put them on my cars when I have 2wd cars. I don't own one now, but if I did I'd probably have a set. But there seems to be a small vocal minority who will tell you that if you don't put snow tires on and one flake of snow falls from the sky you'll immediately lose control, children will die, and nations will go to war. That's just not reality.

Here's a picture from Sunday of last week. That's my RX350 at the end of the day at the ski hill. From there I drove down out of the mountains on a windy road that drops 4,000 feet in 8 miles. It's steep, snowy, and windy. I had no problems at all. No slipping. No sliding. Just going slow with everyone else down the mountain. On good all season tires.

Awesome, very well-reasoned write-up. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

Yeah. Often when I see someone do something really dumb in a non-driving context, I think, "These are the people we share the road with..."

The best piece of advice that was handed down from my grandfather to my father to me is: Stay as far away from other cars as possible!

In R3 conditions chains are required, no exceptions. But, CalTrans does tend to close highways before conditions get that bad. (Local areas can have their own rules.) I know plenty of people who have spent the night on I-80.

For R2 conditions, if you have 4WD and "M+S" or 3-peak-snowflake tires you're good to go but have to carry chains or "tire traction devices." I think compliance with this is probably low. CalTrans has never stopped and checked me for this. My guess is that it does happen now and then, particularly on roads like Glacier Point Road in Yosemite where CalTrans is really conservative (since a ton of drivers there are from out of state).

I'm from Canada and put on the winter tires late October. They normally come off sometime in May. Yes, they are an additional cost, but if it helps with safety, stopping, and traction I'm all for it. I hope to get at least 5 winters from a set of winter tires.