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Old 08-15-2019, 01:31 PM #31
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Originally Posted by Thai View Post
Hybrid of fuel efficient 4 banger in this day and age of cheap gas??
I've done the cost analysis on the Hybrid for my daily commute, and for the added cost of buying a Hybrid, makes for a very poor ROI.

I also very much dislike hybrids in generalÖ it adds cost and complexity to the system, and may have other maintenance cost repercussions in the future.

Personally, if I was going to move into something like this, Iím going to skip the vehicle identity crisis, and go for a fully electric like a Tesla and get supercar fast without ever walking up to a gas pump ever again.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:37 PM #32
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Just traded a 5th gen for an Outback 3.6. Very happy with it and the decision. Its a very capable vehicle with significant safety features and a nice ride.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:54 PM #33
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Hybrid of fuel efficient 4 banger in this day and age of cheap gas??
The hybrid version puts out more power than the standard gas engine.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:00 PM #34
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thanks for the continued thoughts everyone.

Yeah, lots of choices and yes, I also agree, it would make sense to lease something I'd not feel comfortable buying for long term like the Land Rover or Jeep or maybe even the Durango. That way, you're out in 3 years and wipe your hands clean.

Although this leasing stuff isn't quite as cheap as I thought. For one of my first vehicles that I ever got on my own back over 20 yeas ago, I leased a Grand Cherokee and I remember that being stupid cheap.

I just sent out some emails for lease rates on a ~$35K VW Atlas and numbers were coming back $500+ month with a grand or two down. I was really surprised. I was thinking like $350-ish.

But like someone else mentioned, yeah, I guess if the vehicle has a high initial depreciation, you're paying for all of that I think.

Not that I wouldn't be happy with another 4Runner right now, I was just thinking it'd be nice to mix it up for a couple years. But not a necessity. My v8 Limited has been great fun to drive and seems to still have some get up and go.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:06 PM #35
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The hybrid version puts out more power than the standard gas engine.
Yeah, but it's a RAV4! More power to do what? Beat a Civic?

Just kidding...i get it but just not worth it at the asking price, what it is, and gas prices.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:18 PM #36
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Yeah, but it's a RAV4! More power to do what? Beat a Civic?

Just kidding...i get it but just not worth it at the asking price, what it is, and gas prices.
I don't get it? I'm not racing anyone in a Rav4.

The question was "If you had to drive another SUV instead of the 4Runner"?

I provided MY answer. How could I possibly be wrong?

Gas prices fluctuate by the way. I'm still paying $4 / gallon where I live and my commute is mostly short distance city driving. Hybrids make sense for my situation.

When the 4runner comes out with a hybrid option, I'll get one.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:32 PM #37
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thanks for the continued thoughts everyone.

Yeah, lots of choices and yes, I also agree, it would make sense to lease something I'd not feel comfortable buying for long term like the Land Rover or Jeep or maybe even the Durango. That way, you're out in 3 years and wipe your hands clean.

Although this leasing stuff isn't quite as cheap as I thought. For one of my first vehicles that I ever got on my own back over 20 yeas ago, I leased a Grand Cherokee and I remember that being stupid cheap.

I just sent out some emails for lease rates on a ~$35K VW Atlas and numbers were coming back $500+ month with a grand or two down. I was really surprised. I was thinking like $350-ish.

But like someone else mentioned, yeah, I guess if the vehicle has a high initial depreciation, you're paying for all of that I think.

Not that I wouldn't be happy with another 4Runner right now, I was just thinking it'd be nice to mix it up for a couple years. But not a necessity. My v8 Limited has been great fun to drive and seems to still have some get up and go.
Your thoughts are pretty much on point, Cars that have poor residual value you are getting nabbed for the high deprecation during the lease.

I had a family member who just got off a 4Runner lease and after it was all said and done said, it was a mistake to lease it because the resale / residual valve is so good. For vehicles like this, you are a lot better off buying. They ended up getting another, buy bought it this time around.

Leasing does make sense in some scenarios where the cars have poor reliability, or if you are a 1099 where you can write off the lease payments against your taxable income. Personally that’s about the only time I would consider a lease.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:11 PM #38
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Well this thread is just plain timely.... Iíve been gone for just over a year, but I check in on here from time to time for general updates and whatnot. Saw this thread and found it intriguing.

For those on the forum that donít know me, I had three different 4Runners. The last one a 2014 TE w/ KDSS... 5100 lift, FN Wheels, RCI skid, TG2s. It was a really well-balanced daily driver (not too mention a good-looking, not over the top lifted Runner). Finally, one day after being on vacation last year and driving a brand new Explorer Sport with a Turbo charged engine, I decided Iíd had enough... and wanted my money to go to something more street oriented, more tech, and more sporty. I live in TX... we donít camp or fish... my wife doesnít like doing any of that anyhow... I donít have time to off-road (I work ridiculous hours most weeks)... blah, blah, blah... you get the idea.

So I left... and got a used Porsche Macan GTS. Then I ECU-tuned it as well. Itís fast. Very fast for a CUV... about 400 ponies. There are very few other CUVs or SUVs that are faster (Macan Turbo... Stelvio Quadrifolio... Lambo Urus... You get the idea). It handles better than 95% of the cars on the road as well.

Then, later in the year, I decided Iíd had enough of my wifeís family hauler as well... so we got a brand new LR Discovery HSE Turbo Diesel. It is H.O.T. One of the coolest looking SUVs on the road IMO.

So... here I am... Am I happy with our choices?.. I donít know... Let me explain...

First.. the Land Rover. Damn. Beautiful SUV. Diesel has RIDICULOUS torque. Ungodly. Plenty of luxury. Tech is wonderful. Still a little ďtoughĒ looking as well. But not too big, and not too small. We bought beginning of March. Itís been in the shop 3 times already for a total of about a month. Mostly minor stuff (creaks, rattles, some tech glitches) and one middle-sized issue (air suspension - replaced compressor). Will I do it again? Probably not. We do live VERY close to the dealership... so dropping off and getting a loaner is a piece of cake. But still... no one LIKES having their car in the shop...soooooo....

Now the Porsche. Man, now this is German Engineering at its finest. Well built. Solid as a tank. Drive it like a race car and it begs to keep going. Most amazing car Iíve every owned. Iím on the forums and in the P-car world now.... and it just sucks you in. BUUUUUUTTT... G Damn itís expensive. Look up ďthe Porsche TaxĒ and youíll see what I mean. I went into ownership with eyes wide open... Iím a car guy, so I researched heavily and knew what I was doing. But daíyam... itís just a different world. Iíve comboíd my maintenance and upkeep between dealer and Indy shop (and some myself)... so I keep things in check. But still...

Every. Single. Week. I ask if I should have kept my Runner. I love, and I mean LOVE my GTS. I love driving it. I love looking at it. I love washing it. But itís just tough to drive something so (nice) every day, with kids, and construction, and stupid people, and small parking spaces... yada, yada, yada... you get the idea. With the Runner, you just drove it. I didnít worry. I didnít think. Just drive. And it was cool. And I like that. And I miss it. But now I am used to driving this beast. A street-oriented beast. So what do I do now? Iíve considered going back to a Runner... but I donít think Iíd be happy. But I just canít seem to find another option... yet. Who knows... I have another year before I have to make some decisions. My GTS had high mileage when I bought it, so I need to decide if Iím going to get rid of it while itís still worth a chunk of change, or just try to ride it off into the sunset and hope and pray something catastrophic doesnít happen to that puppy.

Here are the two current rides I mentioned....
/Users/KRIS/Downloads/IMG_2197.JPG
/Users/KRIS/Downloads/57825716531__27F5098B-C6FE-419D-9775-33C15833983E.JPG
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:20 PM #39
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Both very nice choices....

I have absolutely always loved the Range Rovers. Heck, I'd be happy with the Range Rover Sport, although I don't doubt the diesel non-Sport version is immensely fun to drive.

Also have always loved the Panamara, but yeah, I think I had an idea about the "Porsche Tax" and decided it just wasn't for me. Even a few years old one, I saw maybe in the mid 30's for the lower end model, I know I'd be just cursing everytime I had to go to the dealer. I make semi good money but am pretty frugal at heart, so I'm not sure I would sleep good at night owning something like that.

Blast to drive though, I'm sure. But yes, my 4Runner has never stranded me. Been closed a few times, on the highway with the fuel needle WAY below E with 20 miles until the next gas station and we've made it every time.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:24 PM #40
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...sorry... needed to reduce and upload the pics.
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If you had to drive another SUV instead of the 4Runner....-img_2197-jpg  If you had to drive another SUV instead of the 4Runner....-57825716531__27f5098b-c6fe-419d-9775-33c15833983e-jpg 
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:45 PM #41
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id advise against leasing. for most people, your car(s) are the second largest investment you will ever make that involves an actual item/entity (an example of a 'non item' would be your kids college tuition, sorry cant think of a better term to call it right now). you pay a lot into a lease to literally receive nothing in the end (all you got was something that temporarily got you from point a to point b). nevermind all the other stressful crap that comes along with a lease (do you want to track your mileage to ensure you dont go over?)

im no economics major, but im smart enough to know to never buy into a lease. cars are cheap enough now a days that you can generally get you something you'd be happy with at your budget until you are ready to sell. if the OP can waste enough money on gas because he/she likes having an SUV just to get groceries and haul kids, they can afford to buy a car.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:47 PM #42
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Was only considering leasing because I didn't want the hassle of selling in a couple years or having to deal with getting ripped off in a trade in when I go to purchase my next 4Runner in a year or two or three.

But yeah, maybe buy something a year old with a few K miles and then try to sell it in a couple years and maybe it won't be too bad.
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:19 PM #43
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id advise against leasing. for most people, your car(s) are the second largest investment you will ever make that involves an actual item/entity (an example of a 'non item' would be your kids college tuition, sorry cant think of a better term to call it right now). you pay a lot into a lease to literally receive nothing in the end (all you got was something that temporarily got you from point a to point b). nevermind all the other stressful crap that comes along with a lease (do you want to track your mileage to ensure you dont go over?)

im no economics major, but im smart enough to know to never buy into a lease. cars are cheap enough now a days that you can generally get you something you'd be happy with at your budget until you are ready to sell. if the OP can waste enough money on gas because he/she likes having an SUV just to get groceries and haul kids, they can afford to buy a car.
I have never once in my life called or considered a car an investment.

Investments appreciate, and most all cars deprecate, some less than others. Yes, there are some that don't, but things like that are generally out of my league $$$$.

Trucks on the other hand I could consider an investment, but its really more of a tool, but only in the function of serving a business to generate revenue.

I pretty much agree with all your comments about leasing unless you are a 1099 or a business owner. Lots of advantages for leasing if you are.

When I was an independent consultant on 1099, I leased a car for the first time. I can write off the full lease payment against my taxable income. The lease was for a cheap modest car, $200/month, so instead of paying myself $140 after taxes, I get a 30% discount on my car using pre-tax dollars. The math at the time worked out in favor of a lease over purchasing.

These days, I have found buying a slightly used new car provides the best value as most of the initial depreciation was paid by someone else. In the case of the 4Runner, buying new is great, especially if you plan on holding onto it for many years. Out of everything I have had the pleasure of owning, the 4Runner is probably one of the best and most versatile I have ever owned, which is why I have 2.

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Old 08-15-2019, 06:50 PM #44
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I have never once in my life called or considered a car an investment.

Investments appreciate, and most all cars deprecate, some less than others. Yes, there are some that don't, but things like that are generally out of my league $$$$.

Trucks on the other hand I could consider an investment, but its really more of a tool, but only in the function of serving a business to generate revenue.

I pretty much agree with all your comments about leasing unless you are a 1099 or a business owner. Lots of advantages for leasing if you are.

When I was an independent consultant on 1099, I leased a car for the first time. I can write off the full lease payment against my taxable income. The lease was for a cheap modest car, $200/month, so instead of paying myself $140 after taxes, I get a 30% discount on my car using pre-tax dollars. The math at the time worked out in favor of a lease over purchasing.

These days, I have found buying a slightly used new car provides the best value as most of the initial depreciation was paid by someone else. In the case of the 4Runner, buying new is great, especially if you plan on holding onto it for many years. Out of everything I have had the pleasure of owning, the 4Runner is probably one of the best and most versatile I have ever owned, which is why I have 2.
well i do. investments can result in a gain or loss. if a wealthy businessman looses $$ on an investment, its a bad investment. but still an investment. i searched earlier and most places refer to it as an asset, under the assumption that your car will always loose money (not true 100% of the time, but most of the time). i still consider every vehicle ive ever owned an investment.

i dont utilize a 1099 and most people who have a regular 9-5 dont either. so good for you, but all of my arguments are for people who dont use a 1099.

lets do some simple math, using this article:
5 Mistakes To Avoid When Leasing A Car | Bankrate.com
(first link on google after i searched)

according to edmonds, the average lease is $466 a month (as of 4/19, also worth noting the average car payment is $554; thats not a big jump), and the average lease is 3 years.

3*12= 36 months in 3 years.
36 * 466 = $16,776 (not including any taxes, fees, overages, maintenance, or any money you put down).

this is why i say leases are a waste of money. yes you had a car to get you to point A to point B for the last 36 months, but now its time to give up your car and you dont have another that you physically own. you have now spent 16.7k over the last 3 years, and now you dont have anything.

so, 466/mo seems really high. lets halve that (half is 233)
233 * 36 = $8388.

8.3k is still a lot for you to pay into to not actually own it. one final thing, if those numbers quoted by edmonds are accurate, $466 is 84.1% of $554; resulting in a 15.9% difference between a lease payment and a loan payment. again, not a lot.

edit:
that being said, i completely agree with your last paragraph. i will never buy a new car for the reasons you listed. i let someone else take the hit on depreciation. i can do all my own maint work, so it works out pretty well for me in the end.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:14 PM #45
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Quote:
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well i do. investments can result in a gain or loss. if a wealthy businessman looses $$ on an investment, its a bad investment. but still an investment. i searched earlier and most places refer to it as an asset, under the assumption that your car will always loose money (not true 100% of the time, but most of the time). i still consider every vehicle ive ever owned an investment.

i dont utilize a 1099 and most people who have a regular 9-5 dont either. so good for you, but all of my arguments are for people who dont use a 1099.

lets do some simple math, using this article:
5 Mistakes To Avoid When Leasing A Car | Bankrate.com
(first link on google after i searched)

according to edmonds, the average lease is $466 a month (as of 4/19, also worth noting the average car payment is $554; thats not a big jump), and the average lease is 3 years.

3*12= 36 months in 3 years.
36 * 466 = $16,776 (not including any taxes, fees, overages, maintenance, or any money you put down).

this is why i say leases are a waste of money. yes you had a car to get you to point A to point B for the last 36 months, but now its time to give up your car and you dont have another that you physically own. you have now spent 16.7k over the last 3 years, and now you dont have anything.

so, 466/mo seems really high. lets halve that (half is 233)
233 * 36 = $8388.

8.3k is still a lot for you to pay into to not actually own it. one final thing, if those numbers quoted by edmonds are accurate, $466 is 84.1% of $554; resulting in a 15.9% difference between a lease payment and a loan payment. again, not a lot.

edit:
that being said, i completely agree with your last paragraph. i will never buy a new car for the reasons you listed. i let someone else take the hit on depreciation. i can do all my own maint work, so it works out pretty well for me in the end.
Sometimes I think we try to compare a car to a financial investment. But a car is more than that. A financial investment’s success is measured only in dollars returned or dollars lost. A car, on the other hand, returns more than the money spent, at least for the majority of us. It enables us to make/earn money in the first place. It also can contribute to quality of life. Additionally, it can cost us more depending on reliability, our poor vehicle selection, etc. So asset or liability may be better words to use to describe a vehicle. My two cents.
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