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Old 08-20-2019, 12:30 PM #1
Wesdan13 Wesdan13 is offline
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5thGen Suspension pre-loads/ride height/315s

Hello all, Iím in a bit of a dilemma with suspension choice. Iíve done a bit of reading on here between ICON lifts and Toytec Boss lifts. I have a 5th Gen that Iím currently working with to mount 315s (BFG AT KO2ís, since they measure slightly shorter than other 315s). Iíve been firm on ICON stage 2 or 3 since they offer 0-3.5Ē but after endless research Iíve discovered that in fact you do not get 3.5 inches of lift with ICON ( may be with any lift, why Iím here) and that you may be lucky to get 2 inches since youíre limited to the amount of preload you can put on it.
My question is which lift will provide the most clearance?
Would going with heavier springs provide a little more height? I do not have bumpers, if anything Iíll do a LoPro with winch in the future.
Any and all advice is welcome!
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Old 08-20-2019, 02:01 PM #2
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You can definitely get more than 2" out of the icon lift. many people running 3 or above actual fender measurement lift increases. I'm at I think 2.75 personally after settling and bumper install etc.
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:02 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87pony View Post
You can definitely get more than 2" out of the icon lift. many people running 3 or above actual fender measurement lift increases. I'm at I think 2.75 personally after settling and bumper install etc.

What preload are you at?

I know ICON recommends no more than 2.13Ē (I think) and 1.13Ē with the heavier springs, the measurement between the preload adjustment ring and the top cap/amount of threads. From what Iíve read, I havenít seen many people getting more than 2Ē... unless theyíre going past the recommended preload.
Not questioning you, this is just what Iíve read and I need more input before ICON takes all of my money.
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Old 08-20-2019, 03:53 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesdan13 View Post
Hello all, Iím in a bit of a dilemma with suspension choice. Iíve done a bit of reading on here between ICON lifts and Toytec Boss lifts. I have a 5th Gen that Iím currently working with to mount 315s (BFG AT KO2ís, since they measure slightly shorter than other 315s). Iíve been firm on ICON stage 2 or 3 since they offer 0-3.5Ē but after endless research Iíve discovered that in fact you do not get 3.5 inches of lift with ICON ( may be with any lift, why Iím here) and that you may be lucky to get 2 inches since youíre limited to the amount of preload you can put on it.
My question is which lift will provide the most clearance?
Would going with heavier springs provide a little more height? I do not have bumpers, if anything Iíll do a LoPro with winch in the future.
Any and all advice is welcome!
Sorry for asking the obvious...but with heavy 315s KO2...are you ready for huge power loss if you don't re-gear?? And even with re-gear, your 4runner is not exactly in excess of power to begin with.
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:08 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
Sorry for asking the obvious...but with heavy 315s KO2...are you ready for huge power loss if you don't re-gear?? And even with re-gear, your 4runner is not exactly in excess of power to begin with.
Iím fully aware of the power loss. A re-gear will come shortly after. Iíll have to suffer the power loss for a bit but... thatís part of the build process I suppose.
Iíve talked to a few people running 315s and while there is a power loss, it doesnít seem dramatic enough to change my mind to keep 285s on a bigger lift (I just have spacers now), it just looks goofy in my opinion. May perform better but Iím not racing it or driving it across the country...
I would like to hear more on this though. Iíve read multiple threads on 315s and re-gearing but I see mixed reviews.
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:50 PM #6
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Every brand out there is going to just about provide the same lift capabilities… your real limitations are CV angles and stock suspension geometry.

My only real concern with jacking the truck up sky high is that you give up droop to get that lift. All lifting does is change the centerline of the shocks resting point on fixed distance your suspension stroke has.

Been there, done that, there is a happy medium for performance. Just something to think about before trying to achieve goals at either extreme.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:08 PM #7
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Just for reference, I have an Icon Stage 2 lift and at this time I am at 24" in the rear and 22.75 inches up front from hub to fender, which is the perfect rake for me. I was higher in the front and actually turned it down for better look, better ride and it even helped my CV joints from being at such an angle... win win all around. I am showing 1.85 inches of threads on my 650 lb springs that come on the Icon Stage 2 coilovers. I do have a lo pro bumper, smittybilt 10k winch, and an extreme LED light bar up front and it carries the weight just fine. I am happy with what it looks like and I have plenty of threads to crank it up 3 or 4 more turns on each side to reach max height on the coilover, and I wouldnt even think of doing that.

Like @Bumbo said, your real limit is your CV's. You jack that thing up to 24.5" or so in the front and you're gonna be able to change CV's in your sleep you will be replacing them so often.

To answer your question which lift, the Icon Stage 2 or 3 you were looking at will get you where you need as far as height goes.
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:34 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
Sorry for asking the obvious...but with heavy 315s KO2...are you ready for huge power loss if you don't re-gear?? And even with re-gear, your 4runner is not exactly in excess of power to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbo View Post
Every brand out there is going to just about provide the same lift capabilities… your real limitations are CV angles and stock suspension geometry.

My only real concern with jacking the truck up sky high is that you give up droop to get that lift. All lifting does is change the centerline of the shocks resting point on fixed distance your suspension stroke has.

Been there, done that, there is a happy medium for performance. Just something to think about before trying to achieve goals at either extreme.
EDIT: forgot to mention that I cited the above to agree and add what's below, lol.

It is your rig, so whatever makes you happy.

That said, I don't personally like projects that go outside a platform's bandwidth, unless we are talking an old rig with limited market value. Then, sure, whatever, its main mission is already completed.

What would the mission profile of a 5th gen on 35s be? Sounds like a dedicated rock crawler. There are two issues with that:
1/ You will either fail OR
2/ You will do mods extensive enough to make one wonder why not start from a Wrangler. And a stock Rubicon, even a TJ, will still run circles around that 5th gen on 35s in the rocks.

The result will be a vehicle that may do some extreme terrain, but not all, and that will have compromised the very features that define it, including reliability and comfort.

Chasing a Rubicon in the rocks is in my non-expert opinion equivalent to chasing a Raptor in Baja. Can you get a good part of the way? Yes, but it will be a super involved process and you still will keep facing the fact that you are going beyond the platform's envelope.

I know a guy who builds rock crawlers for a living. His mantra is basically that you can optimize a starting platform for a specific goal but you cannot make a pudding into a steak.

There are forum members who have driven the Rubicon on P-metric 285s and Golden Spike on 285s. I am saying that because these are examples of very difficult trails that are doable in a 4Runner with reasonable mods. Do you really want to try something like Pritchett Canyon in a 5th gen? It is the hardest Moab trail outside of Area BFE. I am using famous trails in the West as I have no reference for the East.

All but a dozen or two of trails that are 1/very hard and 2/some sort of destination (not a very short trail to beat up on a buggy) can be done without going outside what the 4R was designed for. The internet and youtube especially are obsessed with OHV parks and similar (and many extreme trails are not even on the internet as people are afraid they may get closed) but that's a completely different game, essentially the rock buggy game.

Finally, if you were to optimize your 5th gen for rocks, why go for a performance suspension? Eibach shocks, 5100s, Dobinsons twin tubes will all do the same job, cost a lot less, and probably last longer. And no need to bother with rebuilds etc.

My 2c.
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:01 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAST4R View Post
It is your rig, so whatever makes you happy.

That said, I don't personally like projects that go outside a platform's bandwidth, unless we are talking an old rig with limited market value. Then, sure, whatever, its main mission is already completed.

What would the mission profile of a 5th gen on 35s be? Sounds like a dedicated rock crawler. There are two issues with that:
1/ You will either fail OR
2/ You will do mods extensive enough to make one wonder why not start from a Wrangler. And a stock Rubicon, even a TJ, will still run circles around that 5th gen on 35s in the rocks.

The result will be a vehicle that may do some extreme terrain, but not all, and that will have compromised the very features that define it, including reliability and comfort.

Chasing a Rubicon in the rocks is in my non-expert opinion equivalent to chasing a Raptor in Baja. Can you get a good part of the way? Yes, but it will be a super involved process and you still will keep facing the fact that you are going beyond the platform's envelope.

I know a guy who builds rock crawlers for a living. His mantra is basically that you can optimize a starting platform for a specific goal but you cannot make a pudding into a steak.

There are forum members who have driven the Rubicon on P-metric 285s and Golden Spike on 285s. I am saying that because these are examples of very difficult trails that are doable in a 4Runner with reasonable mods. Do you really want to try something like Pritchett Canyon in a 5th gen? It is the hardest Moab trail outside of Area BFE. I am using famous trails in the West as I have no reference for the East.

All but a dozen or two of trails that are 1/very hard and 2/some sort of destination (not a very short trail to beat up on a buggy) can be done without going outside what the 4R was designed for. The internet and youtube especially are obsessed with OHV parks and similar (and many extreme trails are not even on the internet as people are afraid they may get closed) but that's a completely different game, essentially the rock buggy game.

Finally, if you were to optimize your 5th gen for rocks, why go for a performance suspension? Eibach shocks, 5100s, Dobinsons twin tubes will all do the same job, cost a lot less, and probably last longer. And no need to bother with rebuilds etc.

My 2c.

Dangit you guys! Why you gotta do this to me!? Iíll be straight up with you, I wonít doing any SERIOUS rock crawling, forest service roads and minor crawling is all Iíll end up doing with it. Like I said, these things just look goofy, lifted with smaller tires(285s) so I was just wanting to fill that gap so to speak. Are there 285s that run on the bigger side? 33s maybe?
Also didnít consider CVs so thanks for pointing that out!
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:06 PM #10
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My current 285s measure in at 33s. Hmmm
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:31 PM #11
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Dangit you guys! Why you gotta do this to me!? Iíll be straight up with you, I wonít doing any SERIOUS rock crawling, forest service roads and minor crawling is all Iíll end up doing with it. Like I said, these things just look goofy, lifted with smaller tires(285s) so I was just wanting to fill that gap so to speak. Are there 285s that run on the bigger side? 33s maybe?
Also didnít consider CVs so thanks for pointing that out!
You do give up things when you lift high and buy big tires. PersonallyÖ I would spend a little more time evaluating what it is you are trying to accomplish and see if the trades-offs are REALLY worth it in your case after reading your last post.

Iíve been taught to lift the minimum amount to fit the tire you NEED for the application. (emphasis on the need and application)

Going back to a really high liftÖ Droops is pretty important for performance too, jacking it up to the sky means ur almost at full droop sitting there doing nothing.

Think of it this way... without droop, the whole car falls into the pothole vs just a tire.

Even if you go over a bump where the trucks lifts a little off the ground, droops allows the suspension to fall, keeping the tire in contact with the ground providing traction in those events. You ever try to jack up a sports UTV or something with a lot of travel? The suspension droops so much that you often times run out of jack before you can even get the tire off the ground. Thatís a good thing, itís a compromise between that and ground clearance.

Either way, enjoy the project. Modding is fun.
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:12 PM #12
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My current 285s measure in at 33s. Hmmm
Could also go for a 285/75 which measures about 34
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:42 AM #13
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So much good honest information here and I couldnít appreciate it enough. This has been a plan of mine over the last few months in which Iíve already done ALL the chopping. Iíve been unable to post a thread since Iím a newer member... anyway, this helps a lot!

Tires: I did a bit of research on Tiresize.com which seems to be a super good source that gives you every bit of information (mainly dimensions) about all tires. 295s and 305s seem like the better option that come with less sacrifices. Most 305s Iíve come across measure in at 33.8 and a width of 12.2. 295s come in around 33.2-5 and right around 12 wide. At this point weíre talking < inches but I really donít want that big truck small tires look and I think those tires should do the trick without making out the preload resulting In optimal/efficient performance on and off road.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:50 AM #14
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So much good honest information here and I couldn’t appreciate it enough. This has been a plan of mine over the last few months in which I’ve already done ALL the chopping. I’ve been unable to post a thread since I’m a newer member... anyway, this helps a lot!

Tires: I did a bit of research on Tiresize.com which seems to be a super good source that gives you every bit of information (mainly dimensions) about all tires. 295s and 305s seem like the better option that come with less sacrifices. Most 305s I’ve come across measure in at 33.8 and a width of 12.2. 295s come in around 33.2-5 and right around 12 wide. At this point we’re talking < inches but I really don’t want that big truck small tires look and I think those tires should do the trick without making out the preload resulting In optimal/efficient performance on and off road.
I have not used Tiresize.com, but one thing Tire Rack excels at is actual tread width measurements since they do their own. For this reason, they are trustworthy, being consistent across brands.

For example, the stock tire is 8.3 tread width but the Wildpeak is 8.9 which is as much as the smallest 285s! 255 width tires can range from a low of 7.5 to a high of 8.4! I don't think wheel size matters for tread width at all, only for section width. I have an unmounted Wildpeak that is just 0.1 narrower than the mounted ones.

It gets crazy. So, I guess if you look closely at those sizes you could see some surprising numbers.

When I looked at going from 265 to 255 and realized I may be loosing as much as 1.25 in width per tire in my specific case, I was shocked. That's triple the nominal 10 mm difference.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:54 PM #15
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Quote:
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What preload are you at?

I know ICON recommends no more than 2.13Ē (I think) and 1.13Ē with the heavier springs, the measurement between the preload adjustment ring and the top cap/amount of threads. From what Iíve read, I havenít seen many people getting more than 2Ē... unless theyíre going past the recommended preload.
Not questioning you, this is just what Iíve read and I need more input before ICON takes all of my money.
I am at max preload with the 650 springs, but Im pretty heavy. been thinking of switching to 700lb springs.
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