02-08-2020, 11:03 AM
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#31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimby
Did someone say articulation?
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Thats how it should be done. It's like artwork.
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02-08-2020, 11:10 AM
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#32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mteolus
Go to this video at 13:00.. I am not a Jeep fanboy but if you think IFA is better than SFA off-road you are smoking some good crack.
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Thats like "cheese and chalk". Id like to se how well that Jeep would do when it was loaded to the GVWR of the HumVee. The guy took the central tire inflation system and the Hutchison's off the HumVee. Dumb move.
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02-08-2020, 11:24 AM
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#33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimby
Did someone say articulation?
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I don't think you'll ever see that much articulation on the trail except if all of the weight is on the front end in which case you have larger problems hitting a 4ft rock at that much of a downward incline.
Keep in mind there are no springs in that system shown.
SFA by its nature will always articulate better than IFS when rockcrawling. I wish IFS was better but at this point the technology isn't there.
The force used to push one tire up is directly used to push the drooping tire down which gives solid axle a traction advantage. You can get just as much wheel travel or more from IFS but it will never be the same in the rocks.
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02-08-2020, 11:34 AM
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#34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inv4drZm
I don't think you'll ever see that much articulation on the trail except if all of the weight is on the front end in which case you have larger problems hitting a 4ft rock at that much of a downward incline.
Keep in mind there are no springs in that system shown.
SFA by its nature will always articulate better than IFS when rockcrawling. I wish IFS was better but at this point the technology isn't there.
The force used to push one tire up is directly used to push the drooping tire down which gives solid axle a traction advantage. You can get just as much wheel travel or more from IFS but it will never be the same in the rocks.
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This isn't a rock crawler. It's a desert racer.
Also, think about your tire footprint with an articulated straight axel. The tire tilts and you have less footprint touching the ground. With IRS, your footprint remains flat.
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02-08-2020, 11:59 AM
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#35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimby
This isn't a rock crawler. It's a desert racer.
Also, think about your tire footprint with an articulated straight axel. The tire tilts and you have less footprint touching the ground. With IRS, your footprint remains flat.
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We're talking about in general, not just desert racing, but rock crawling and road manners too.
That's assuming the body remains perfectly flat when crawling over rocks. IFS sucks at that like I've been saying. At least in practical application like with our rigs, which this conversation is about. SFA has more usable articulation/geometry in the rocks, I didn't think anybody could deny that until this thread. Keep in mind real world applications. I'm not saying anything about clearance or weight, just articulation/grip. It's a benefit to have the tires connected together in certain situations. Exactly what sway bars try to accomplish.
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2005 4R Sport 4WD "The last of the V8s!" - Custom TIG'd SS Dual Exhaust - King 2.5" +2 LT. - ARB Front & Rear - 37's - Dana 60 - Build Thread
2005 Tundra 2WD Regular Cab V8 - Chopped Frame - Short Bed Swap
1977 Celica Liftback - LFX Swap - Build Thread
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02-08-2020, 01:54 PM
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#36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inv4drZm
We're talking about in general, not just desert racing, but rock crawling and road manners too.
That's assuming the body remains perfectly flat when crawling over rocks. IFS sucks at that like I've been saying. At least in practical application like with our rigs, which this conversation is about. SFA has more usable articulation/geometry in the rocks, I didn't think anybody could deny that until this thread. Keep in mind real world applications. I'm not saying anything about clearance or weight, just articulation/grip. It's a benefit to have the tires connected together in certain situations. Exactly what sway bars try to accomplish.
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If you look at my first post, I say they both have benefits and drawbacks. But if we are talking solely about ride characteristics for general use, I have to give the nod to IFS/IRS. That's because most 4Runner owners use their trucks on road and on fairly mild trails. Only a small percentage of enthusiast use a 4Runner to do actual rock crawling where solid axle front and rear would benefit them.
However, like I said in my first post and others have already stated here, there is a caveat to IRS......the cost of production, maintenance, and durability when compared to a solid rear axel. Solid axels are cheaper for the manufacturer and the consumer.
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02-09-2020, 09:51 PM
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#37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinRidgewood
It's not surprising the a modern stock vehicle with IFS wouldn't finish KoH.
$ Unnamed Stock Class <<<$Class 1 I'm sure of this
I dont even know which stock class you are talking about
Here's some links for them maybe you could be more specific.
Class Levels and Vehicle Numbers | SCORE-International.com
Rulebook | Ultra4 Racing
4 wheel independent, purpose built, from the ground up is the way to go. IMHO. If you are a weekend warrior with limited funds that chooses leaf springs and solid axles thats fine too.
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This is the overall winner in 4400 (the fastest most extreme class). Take a look at what is underneath. Even purpose built unlimited class vehicles are not always IFS. And obviously this year the double solid axle setup beat all of the IFS vehicles in every class. Similarly there's never been an IFS rock crawler that's been competitive in rock crawling. Maybe some day they will be - but so far no one has figure out how to make it competitive.
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02-09-2020, 09:53 PM
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#38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimby
Did someone say articulation?
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That's cute. It's about half way there!
It's actually a very neat irs. My next off road trail rig may be IFS/IRS. But im doing sip accepting that it will almost certainly be less capable in the last mile of trail in trade for more comfort the rest of the time. And the plan is rear engine. The packaging works easier without a divorced transfer case.
Independent suspension does a lot of things well. Going fast is one of them. Maintaining distributed force evenly on all the wheels on uneven terrain is not. Horses for courses.
As far as OEM ifs - it's really hard to do much with short suspension arms.
Last edited by Jetboy; 02-10-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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02-10-2020, 08:34 AM
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#39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy
This is the overall winner in 4400 (the fastest most extreme class). Take a look at what is underneath. Even purpose built unlimited class vehicles are not always IFS. And obviously this year the double solid axle setup beat all of the IFS vehicles in every class. Similarly there's never been an IFS rock crawler that's been competitive in rock crawling. Maybe some day they will be - but so far no one has figure out how to make it competitive.
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My first response is that this sport doesn't have the sponsorship money to make developing IFS/IRS machines possible. These guys are still operating out of their pocket. More money spent on the truck more wenching from the wife. The inexpensive solid axle wins.
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02-10-2020, 08:36 AM
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#40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy
Independent suspension does a lot of things well. Going fast is one of them. Maintaining distributed force evenly on all the wheels on uneven terrain is not. Horses for courses.
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facepalm
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02-10-2020, 08:48 AM
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#41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy
...cute..
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...this one has some shiny parts on it...
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02-10-2020, 10:42 AM
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#42
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it's pretty simple.
Cheaper (look at axle shafts from RCV), easier to lift, better articulation, better ground clearance, and stronger.
Marlin Crawler has a pretty awesome IFS setup they are coming out with but it'll probably be somewhere from 7-10k for the kit. Once could do a SAS for easily less than half that cost when doing the work themselves.
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02-10-2020, 11:10 AM
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#43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinRidgewood
My first response is that this sport doesn't have the sponsorship money to make developing IFS/IRS machines possible. These guys are still operating out of their pocket. More money spent on the truck more wenching from the wife. The inexpensive solid axle wins.
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You could not be more wrong. Teams that have private helicopters - have plenty of $ to develop anything and everything IRS. It simply doesn't work - or no one can figure out how to make it work.
You seem to have a preconcieved notion of what it *should* be and reality does not match. Build one. Prove everyone wrong.
Last edited by Jetboy; 02-10-2020 at 11:12 AM.
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02-10-2020, 11:13 AM
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#44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinRidgewood
facepalm
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That's simple physics. You don't like physics? Or you don't believe in physics?
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02-10-2020, 03:50 PM
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#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinRidgewood
Yes Im aware the front suspension is independent and rear is not on 4Runner. I don't care for the solid rear on the 4Runner.
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Without the solid rear, you might as well start calling this a highlander or rav4.
Aside from that and the BOF design, not much keeping this thing from becoming a crossover.
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