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Old 12-01-2020, 05:33 PM #16
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Here is the problem: if Toyota abandons BOF 4x4s and turns everything into a independent suspension mommymobile crossover, then why should I buy another Toyota? The Germans do a far better job with crossovers than the boring shit the Japanese crank out.

Since Toyota won't replace the 4Runner soon and isn't replacing and maybe discontinuing the TLC, we've bought a Cayenne and a Macan instead. My 2013 TE is getting old as shit and there won't be another Toyota in my garage when it dies unless they get serious about 4x4s like Ford and Jeep have.

That's money that would have gone to Toyota, but I doubt they care.
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:32 PM #17
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Here is the problem: if Toyota abandons BOF 4x4s and turns everything into a independent suspension mommymobile crossover, then why should I buy another Toyota? The Germans do a far better job with crossovers than the boring shit the Japanese crank out.

Since Toyota won't replace the 4Runner soon and isn't replacing and maybe discontinuing the TLC, we've bought a Cayenne and a Macan instead. My 2013 TE is getting old as shit and there won't be another Toyota in my garage when it dies unless they get serious about 4x4s like Ford and Jeep have.

That's money that would have gone to Toyota, but I doubt they care.
I couldn't hope to be a marketing VP for any major automaker. I'm not fond of jellybean-shaped "SUVs", but they sell by the godzillions. I like truck-based SUVs, but the public increasingly doesn't understand them. Your Cayenne and Macan may be wonderful vehicles, but they're twice the cost of a 4Runner and of questionable reliability (so I've read), so they're not on my radar. You say Germans do a far better job with crossovers, but no German marques come to mind aside from the odd VW. Or at least, few are buying them.

The next (USA) Land Cruiser is a very big potential reward or risk for Toyota. It's arguably their best-recognized vehicle name. If they plan to "return it to its roots" as many have implied, they need to sell that as a GOOD thing, and they need to do it right. They need to try to not alienate their current affluent buyers, while beginning to re-attract the grass-roots Serengeti-lovers that made Land Cruiser a name in the first place. In its essence, this must be an EXTREMELY difficult landscape to navigate. For comparison, M-B and Porsche have nothing near the potential nameplate risk for their off-road vehicles. They have no legendary off-road vehicles that are so easily recognized by name.

So when Toyota introduces its next USA Land Cruiser, it has to be the RIGHT one, and better than all the others. Nobody will accept less. It's the playing field that Toyota has created for itself, and for everyone else.
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:44 PM #18
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It's arguably their best-recognized vehicle name.
I'd argue against that. When I was looking at new vehicles earlier this year, I didn't know the difference between a Land Cruiser and a Land Rover.

I also always assumed Land Rovers were a kind of Ford Explorer or something. I didn't even know what Land Rover was until earlier this year. Anyone buying a Land Rover to impress other people by waving their ginormous vehicular dong in their faces might be wasting effort on more people than they realize because I bet most people don't know and don't care what Land Rover is.
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Old 12-01-2020, 07:24 PM #19
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I'd argue against that. When I was looking at new vehicles earlier this year, I didn't know the difference between a Land Cruiser and a Land Rover.

I also always assumed Land Rovers were a kind of Ford Explorer or something. I didn't even know what Land Rover was until earlier this year. Anyone buying a Land Rover to impress other people by waving their ginormous vehicular dong in their faces might be wasting effort on more people than they realize because I bet most people don't know and don't care what Land Rover is.
Well, I meant worldwide. I think the Land Cruiser name is very well-recognized in Africa, Australia, the Middle East, etc., as a very desirable and reliable Toyota.
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:03 PM #20
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Well, I meant worldwide. I think the Land Cruiser name is very well-recognized in Africa, Australia, the Middle East, etc., as a very desirable and reliable Toyota.
And most of those model variants Toyota refuses to sell here, even those which would be crash and safety compliant in the US in favor of crossover blobmobiles.

I swear I don't know how Toyota sells so many cars when just about every one of their models is awful compared to the competition.
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Old 12-01-2020, 10:46 PM #21
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And most of those model variants Toyota refuses to sell here, even those which would be crash and safety compliant in the US in favor of crossover blobmobiles.

I swear I don't know how Toyota sells so many cars when just about every one of their models is awful compared to the competition.
Awful? In what way(s)?
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Old 12-01-2020, 10:48 PM #22
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Well, I meant worldwide. I think the Land Cruiser name is very well-recognized in Africa, Australia, the Middle East, etc., as a very desirable and reliable Toyota.
Two out of those three are, well, yeah...

I would love to mount flamethrowers to my 4Runner, though!
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Old 12-02-2020, 12:36 AM #23
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And most of those model variants Toyota refuses to sell here, even those which would be crash and safety compliant in the US in favor of crossover blobmobiles.

I swear I don't know how Toyota sells so many cars when just about every one of their models is awful compared to the competition.
Wasn't that long ago that a 4runner was faster than the fastest model cayenne. What happened to Toyota? I guess a rav4 prime is faster than the slowest cayenne still... So I guess there's that.
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Old 12-02-2020, 04:22 AM #24
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IRS has parts called control arms. They don't look like tubular links. The tundra might move to IRS. The test mules do not have IRS.

Looks like that test mule lost a lug nut.
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Old 12-02-2020, 05:09 AM #25
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Awful? In what way(s)?
Same question here.
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Old 12-02-2020, 12:57 PM #26
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Awful? In what way(s)?
I can't think of a single vehicle Toyota makes (which isn't a niche vehicle like the 4Runner) which is a segment leader or innovator.

Their crossovers aren't the best, their sedans aren't the best, they still bother to make the 86 and Supra that no one cares about, the Sequoia and Tundra are literal 1990s GM clones.

If you told me to buy a Toyota that doesn't suck, I'd tell you to get a 4Runner or TLC--maybe a Tacoma, but the 3rd gen was a step back from the 2nd.

I've had lots of 'yotas, both from the 4Runner and TLC platform, and those have been solid offerings, now Toyota is either ruining them killing them off in the US.
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Old 12-02-2020, 01:06 PM #27
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Looks like that test mule lost a lug nut.
It's the new 5 1/2 lug bolt pattern. 6 lugs, 5 nuts. Being conservative, Toyota didn't want to go all the way to a 6 lug on the first try.
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Old 12-02-2020, 01:27 PM #28
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The biggest issue I see is the freqency of updates. Historically almost all toyota models were on 7 year cycles with a year 3 or 4 facelift. The Tundra was competitive in 2007. But it's still a 2007 vehicle in 2020. It's just too long when everyone else has had multiple generation updates. The 4Runner in 2010 was closer to a refresh than a real full new model. And now we're going out to 2024 on a 2003 platform. And Toyota could have given us newer engines and transmissions in the same platform without a new generation. But it didn't. I couldn't believe that the "new" lexus IS came out with the same engine I had in mine in 2007. I mean - how many "generations" can you squeeze out of drive train before it's done?

I think the new Tundra will be either class leading or very close. Everything looks like it'll be a direct competitor with the new F150. But if Toyota then does nothing for another 15 years to it - it'll be wildly out of date again. My bet is that it was delayed a year because it was initially going to be a NA 3.5 hybrid and it sucked so they had to go back and re-design it with the 3.5TT hybrid to be competitive with the F150.

And it's not for lack of a parts bin full of great stuff. Toyota just won't get off its ass an do anything with the parts in the bin. The 5.0L v8 should have been in the GX, 4R, and the Tacoma 10 years ago. If the Tacoma and 4R were offered with that engine - you wouldn't hear a whisper of complaint about it not keeping up with the competition. Why it's not at least in the GX I have no idea. The drive train in the IS/GS would be fantastic for a midsize crossover. It's far better than what is in the RX. And with a TTv6 in front, Lexus could have a very competitive sporty midsize SUV to compete with the Cayenne. But instead they're still running the same engine they have for about 20 years. It's fine. But it's falling behind the competition.

And where are the BEVs? Toyota was the ev tech leader for a generation in hybrids. Now?? they make a very limited production Rav4 Prime - which IMO is the only interesting new technology in a Toyota vehicle right now. And they only make 5k units? How is there not a high performance EV version of the LC500?
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Old 12-02-2020, 01:45 PM #29
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I can't think of a single vehicle Toyota makes (which isn't a niche vehicle like the 4Runner) which is a segment leader or innovator.

Their crossovers aren't the best, their sedans aren't the best, they still bother to make the 86 and Supra that no one cares about, the Sequoia and Tundra are literal 1990s GM clones.

If you told me to buy a Toyota that doesn't suck, I'd tell you to get a 4Runner or TLC--maybe a Tacoma, but the 3rd gen was a step back from the 2nd.

I've had lots of 'yotas, both from the 4Runner and TLC platform, and those have been solid offerings, now Toyota is either ruining them killing them off in the US.
Nothing you say makes them "awful". You may not be impressed with most, or all, of Toyota's offerings but that doesn't make them "awful". Maybe you need to try some of the comp for awhile and then see what you think.
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Old 12-02-2020, 01:47 PM #30
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The biggest issue I see is the freqency of updates. Historically almost all toyota models were on 7 year cycles with a year 3 or 4 facelift. The Tundra was competitive in 2007. But it's still a 2007 vehicle in 2020. It's just too long when everyone else has had multiple generation updates. The 4Runner in 2010 was closer to a refresh than a real full new model. And now we're going out to 2024 on a 2003 platform. And Toyota could have given us newer engines and transmissions in the same platform without a new generation. But it didn't. I couldn't believe that the "new" lexus IS came out with the same engine I had in mine in 2007. I mean - how many "generations" can you squeeze out of drive train before it's done?

I think the new Tundra will be either class leading or very close. Everything looks like it'll be a direct competitor with the new F150. But if Toyota then does nothing for another 15 years to it - it'll be wildly out of date again. My bet is that it was delayed a year because it was initially going to be a NA 3.5 hybrid and it sucked so they had to go back and re-design it with the 3.5TT hybrid to be competitive with the F150.

And it's not for lack of a parts bin full of great stuff. Toyota just won't get off its ass an do anything with the parts in the bin. The 5.0L v8 should have been in the GX, 4R, and the Tacoma 10 years ago. If the Tacoma and 4R were offered with that engine - you wouldn't hear a whisper of complaint about it not keeping up with the competition. Why it's not at least in the GX I have no idea. The drive train in the IS/GS would be fantastic for a midsize crossover. It's far better than what is in the RX. And with a TTv6 in front, Lexus could have a very competitive sporty midsize SUV to compete with the Cayenne. But instead they're still running the same engine they have for about 20 years. It's fine. But it's falling behind the competition.

And where are the BEVs? Toyota was the ev tech leader for a generation in hybrids. Now?? they make a very limited production Rav4 Prime - which IMO is the only interesting new technology in a Toyota vehicle right now. And they only make 5k units? How is there not a high performance EV version of the LC500?
Toyota always cites "declining interest," as the reason they kill off a vehicle.

There's "declining interest" in the FJ Cruiser after years of no updates, clearly people have no interest in a cheap, easy to mod 4x4 despite the massive success of the Wrangler and huge buzz of the Bronco.

There's "declining interest" in the 4Runner which has a platform, engine, and transmission first seen together in the 2003 4th gen model and still continues to sell remarkably well despite no updates to the drivetrain--even though Toyota has the engines and transmissions and is wasting them on the GX and could have easily dropped them in during its long run that started in 2010.

There's "no interest" in the GX, which is an ugly ass version of a hugely successful international vehicle that has just seen a huge update that isn't coming to the US model. Obviously you'd think that maybe since all the parts and R&D are there they'd somehow integrate the new Prado and 4Runner, but with all the talk of hybrids, shit engines, and killing the Land Cruiser and dragging the 4Runner past 2022 this doesn't seem likely.

Toyota sucks so hard in the US people import beat to shit 25 year old trucks from all over the third world to get good stuff not sold here.
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