Hey all,

With the recent press release from Toyota about the 2010 FJ Cruiser, a statement stuck out at me and i have boldfaced it:

"The 2010 FJ Cruiser, the most capable off-road SUV in the Toyota line-up, will feature several upgrades, including dual VVT-i and roller rocker arms on the 4.0-liter V6, which add 19 horsepower and a one mpg increase. Minor suspension changes reduce the turning radius by more than a foot, and a new Army Green exterior color is offered. The base MSRP for FJ Cruiser will range from $23,680 for the 2WD automatic to $25,270 for the 4WD automatic, an increase of $360, or 1.4 to 1.5 percent."
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I guess that it makes sense given that the FJ comes with A-TRAC and rear locker along with shorter dimensions. However, prior to the FJ, the Land Cruiser has always been considered Toyota's best off-roading vehicle, bar none...Toyota's answer to the competition from Land Rover (and Mercedes).

With the 2009 4runner Trail Edition getting the A-TRAC and rear locker, where does the Land Cruiser stand in off-road capability??? Is it now 3rd in line??

I have always viewed the Land Cruiser with much awe, so this statement from Toyota kinda took me by surprise. I should not be though, given that the new 2008-present TLC has taken a step towards mall-friendliness with its bloated design and lower clearances. Is CRAWL not considered an effective off-road tool, on par with A-TRAC/locker?? I guess CRAWL technology on the new Land Cruiser (and LX570) is just for the mild-mod off-roading??

And this statement is from the horse's mouth...so, i am kinda sad to see that Toyota admitted that the Land Cruiser is no longer their best stock off-roader. Will the Land Cruiser further slip down the ladder with the next redesign??

Just thinking (and sobbing) out loud....

I would agree with that statement. The Land Cruiser has creeped up into the Range Rover/Porsche Cayenne price range making it out of reach for most off-road enthusiasts. The FJ with it's shorter wheelbase, vintage look, off-road options (ATRAC, rear locker, etc.), and competitive price point make it more of an off-road vehicle in my opinion. However, I wouldn't count out this 2008 LC as one bad mofo off road.....

http://www.sleeoffroad.com/project_v...RJ200_main.htm

With the ~$75k price tag of a new LC and the options/mods/add-on's the above LC has, I'm sure they are about six figures into that vehicle.

It's a convenience feature. It no doubt increases capability in novice hands but it's just low speed cruise control.

Might be a fun tool for testing abilities. Practice until you can improve on CRAWL going over an obstacle.

Well I think most everyone had already come to this conclusion several years ago - we didn't really need a Toyota press release to see how bloated the TLC has become - we can all see it with our own two eyes But I guess it is weird to see that Toyota is finally admitting it in black and white.

Yeah, that is what i figured...and yeah, it would be cool to see one in action and see if you can beat it.

Exactly. I guess that i grew up thinking (and believing so long) that the Land Cruiser was "the" SUV to own if you want all-terrain capability.

I disagree with this statement. Off road can be defined in many ways. The Land Cruiser has and always will be designed to carry a 1500lb payload over the roughest roads in the middle of the Australian outback at high speed. It was NEVER designed to be a rock crawler (although the 40 series is debatable).

The FJ is designed for more rock crawling than expedition/overland type adventures; HOWEVER, that doesnt mean that the land cruiser cant do exactly what the FJ can do - at least where it fits. The UN is the absolute best example of this. Over the last 5 years they have bought 12000 land cruisers because the payloads that they can carry and the terrain that they drive on are unmatched and because they are absolute tanks. Furthermore, the Land Cruiser is designed to do this for 300+k miles every day all its life. The FJ is meant for an occasional trail here and there - it cannot stand up to the daily abuse that the land cruiser can.

Because the FJ can fit in more places, people view it as a better car off road; however, the over-engineering doesnt even come close to that of a land cruiser. Absolutely everything in the land cruiser is more robust than that of an FJ/4R, people view the lux interior and rationalize that something this nice cant possibly be good off road.

Just look at a LC next time you see it. The front IFS components are about 4x the size of a 4R/FJ. Nothing hangs below the frame rails. Furthermore, the frame is stronger and can take more abuse, the rear diff is larger and thus stronger and some debate it is as strong as a DANA 60.

Here is a cool video about the LC design. I DOUBT the FJ/4R went through all of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOO9ur8HcX4

Here is a sweet Land Cruiser commercial for the middle east:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WBQQJ7Ux9U

Go on the FJ forums, read about how many busted tie-rods etc etc people have to deal with. On iH8mud, nobody has any mechanical/structural failure problems. For heavens sake, 3 reported FJ frames have broken and the countless complaints about the weak front section of the frame leading to fender flare deformation.

Nothing can touch the LC and nothing ever will. It is and always will be the most over engineered car on the planet. I have driven my moms LC as much as I have driven my 4R. The ride is completely different - it doesnt even bat an eye at anything you drive over. The 4R has a tendency to skip around and just doesnt feel as solid.

Yes, I <3 land cruisers!

I think that i agree with everything that you have said...and have said pretty much the same as you have stated in the past.

A few exceptions:
- Trust me, that rear diff on the TLC is NOWHERE near the strength of a true Dana 60...nobody what anybody tells you! Yeah, it is anywhere between a Dana 40 to a Dana 60, probably closer to Dana 40.

- IFS arms may be bigger, but it is not 4x bigger. (My brother has '01 LX470.) Actually, in Australia, there have been more than a few reports of IFS control arm failures in the Land Cruiser 100 series. Ih8mud can tell you more on it...this was reportedly due to the stress of the terrain on vehicles with bullbars, etc..

- And being an owner of a G-wagen, i have some beef with your last statements...i can think of one other vehicle that matches it or exceeds the TLC in what you wrote.

BTW, we should make a distinction between off-road durability and off-road capability. I am sure that the TLC is built to a higher degree than a FJ or 4runner...and will last longer. However, in terms of capability, i think that a stock FJ (with A-TRAC and rear locker) or a 2009 4runner Trail Edition will be able to outwheeled a stock TLC100 or TLC200.

Eskimo, you make some excellent points, and I agree that the TLC/LX is more robustly built. Here's a pic below of my old LX (aka TLC) - the thing was built like a freaking tank. However, I still agree with Thai (and now apparently Toyota) that the FJ is the "most capable off-road SUV in the Toyota line-up". IMO this has to do mostly with the FJ's approach/departure angle advantages and the rear locker availability.

I do agree with you that the TLC/LX is more robustly built than the FJ and will likely stand up over time to more abuse. However, it is clear to me now that the TLC is built for a different type of off-roading. Indeed, in your second link at one point they referred to how the TLC excels at "real world off-road situations". I certainly agree with that. I assume that by "real world off-road situations" they mean the type of off-roading situations that people in most parts of the world might encounter in regular use even in harsh environments - Africa, Outback, etc, but NOT the types of situations that many off-roading enthusiasts actively seek out for pure entertainment and challenge where the FJ's advantages would come into play.

Of course, there are some folks who will say that anything short of the Rubicon Trail "ain't real off-roading". But of course there is no univerally accepted definition of "off-roading" that I'm aware of.

All good responses. I read up on that front LCA failure on iH8mud a while back because as an engineer, I was interested in the proposed weak spots on these vehicles. It turns out failures were located at the LCA mounting position due to the LCA hitting the bump stop on very bumpy roads. This was due to the fact that the owners loaded them up with gear, put 300+ pounds of bumpers and winches in the front but left the suspension stock.

The added weight and the fact that they disregarded the factory front torsion bars ultimately led to the LCA crashing into the bumpstop and cracking the mounting location.

Those with the proper torsion bars/suspension setups never had an issue.

I too agree that the FJ will get into tighter places and thus more difficult places than the LC. Two very different vehicles for two very different crowds.

I think your all taking it way to seriously. Its a great vehicle , but will an FJ , 4R , Xterra , or even a car like a Subaru out perform each other in different situations on and off road ....yes. (just like an AT tire debate) lol

Everything had strong and weak points.

Falls, we're talking off-road capability here...please see title! We're taking it seriously because this is the FIRST TIME (that i know of) that Toyota stated a vehicle as their top off-roader and it is not called a Land Cruiser. It has always been the Land Cruiser in the past.

Well, here is a loaded question...is there a place OFF-ROAD where the new Land Cruiser can outperform a FJ or 4runner TE??

I just thought that it was common knowledge that the FJ was more off road capable than the LC.

It's like Jeep saying, "Yes, the $20,000 wrangler is a better off road capable vehicle than the $45,000 Jeep SRT."

I know what your talking about . I read the title. It does not surprise me at all, that an FJ could do better or a 4R or a ??? depending on the circumstances. I have though always thought the LC was top of the heap though too.

More people would have a urge to test an FJ or 4R off road than they would a new LC. Not many want to take the new $70k+/- vehicle off road.

Yea in the outback where you need to take 5 adults + gear + extra fuel 2k miles into the middle of nowhere and rely on your car to get you there and back.

BTW, lockers and 2 yes TWO spares, a factory bull-bar AND electric Toyota winch are options on the LC across the big puddle.