Right, I was tempted to say another government program to "help" or "make affordable" but in reality another failed program.

87 will do just fine so save your money. As long as you are taking good care overall, you have nothing to worry about.

This thread was a great read though by the last page I don’t feel like I know the Truth. I’ve had my 19 TRD OR Premium for a week. I haven’t gone over 16.1 on the mpg for it. Was considering using Premium gas to see if it increases. I’ve driven a 4R since 2004. Spending money on fuel is a way of life! Still, I want to try and get better mileage from this V6 than I got from my V8...though knowing what little I do about engines and how they really function, maybe the V6 isn’t able to do that?

Ah...the joy of a new baby...

I'm in no way a SME on this topic but I just got my 19 ORP (has 2000 miles on it now) and I've been consistently getting 18 to 18.3 mpg according to the computer. I'm usually the guy with the lead foot but I've had to curtail it bit with the new 4runner. I also mainly do a lot more highway driving so perhaps its how and where you drive that may be playing a part.

It’s funny, Gov’t subsidies are also the reason WHY we have so much over-produced and wasted staple crops, including corn, and why we have such a terrible farmland waste and drought management system. As is par for the course, anything the gov’t tends to stick it’s fat, lobbyist money stained fingers in ends up taking a decent idea and turning it into a giant bowl of waste and greed.

Renewable energy exists because there is a need for it, and all it takes is a little forethought and planning on the consumer side to become financially viable. All new technological ideas take many years to develop, as do infrastructure investment by local and federal authorities. A huge speed bump in the current development of industrial side renewable energy is not only the time and money to develop, but also the grumbling and sabatoge by existing corporations who’s revenue is reliant on old school, reliable, oil based energy.

Is it cheaper to run most anything on existing oil based tech. Hell yeah it is, because it’s been around for over a hundred years and the production system has been refined over and over. Will it still be cheaper in the long run when factoring in health and environmental consequenses?

No doubt the ethanol expirement failed. For both health and economics. The only people that benefited from that were the 10% of farmers that reaped the 90% of the $1,000,000,000 annual payouts. The crappy fuel economy and the way it eats up engines offsets and cleaner burning properties.

I like the way more automakers are investing in electric, which will bring the cost of producing, and ultimately our purchase price for these vehicles. On a performance note, I would love to have the instant torque of an electric motor as I cruise up a mountain in 4lo. And all that on board battery capacity would be an overlanders dream. If only we can stay the course until those gov’t subsidies are no longer needed.

I miss going out of state and getting away from the Ethanol blend in Oregon. Better gas MPG.
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2007 SE V6 Titanium

Electric is more harmful to the environment than oil based motors.
The process of mining the materials, the toxic manufacturing process, the toxic waste in production, and the toxic waste left over from the batteries are much more harmful than running oil based.

If things like electric cars and mass solar/wind energy were better, private industry would have converted to those decades ago. But funny thing: When there is no government handout involved, it remains a tiny little niche market that really doesn't make any real advancements.

On the toxic waste issue, I would agree with you if we were talking about Nickel Metal Hydride, Cadmium, Lithium metal, or acid batteries. But current Li-ion batteries like the ones used in electric cars, rechargeable batteries, etc., are not considered as toxic, and the US gov’t has deemed them safe enough to go to landfill (although I disagree, and believe it should be mandatory to recycle them). Lithium metal anode based batteries ARE toxic, but there is no actual lithium metal in Li-ion batteries. There is nickel, cobalt, copper, manganese, sometimes carbon, sometimes Silica, that is used as the anode and cathode, and an ion of lithium that is arranged to move between the anode and cathode. Some reports I’ve read have stated a 20% recycled material rate in the production of new cobalt based products, which is pretty damn good for a precious metal. Metal recycling plants have been heavily investing in new extraction techniques in anticipation of the dying EV car batteries that will start being replaced as soon as 2020. Copper has historically been a very well recycled metal at between 80-90%. Carbon is carbon, lol. Nickel is definitely one of those metals and alloys that does have a two-face personality as it’s environmentally expensive to mine as well as difficult to recycle and recover.

As far as mining is concerned, I don’t think any activity that pulls raw material out of the ground, whether it be liquid or solid, is environmentally friendly. But that is the nature of the industrial beast. Oil spills have been just as prevelant and damaging as the process of extracting precious metal from ore. It’s a very unpleasant bi-product of industry. No such thing as clean extraction.

Advancing technology, significant private and public investment in solar and electric technology, and even more money being poured into battery technology points to a very different future than the one we have lived in for the last century. And that is also the nature of our evolution. Ultimately electrical storage will be a better tech once production, recycling, and capacity techniques improve. Your assertion that it would have been done decades ago if it were better does not accurately reflect the timeline of which these technologies have emerged. Do you think motor oil and gasoline have not improved since their inception? Just because one way of energy production was discovered and refined first doesn’t mean that a different form of production wont surpass it given equal lengths of time to develop.

The fact that nearly every car manufacturer has at least a hybrid, and all major brands are pouring huge amounts of investment dollars into electric vehicles shows that this is not just a niche market anymore.

Solar energy is a geographical enigma. In the US southwest, it makes sense to install solar on every new construction home. Solar shines when the cells feeding power are close to the device using it. Roof top installations provide plenty of power for the home while also feeding the grid during peak usage hours. But these solar installations in the Mojave desert are a ridiculous farce, gobbling up tax dollars and not even paying for themselves. Not only are they destructive to install, the energy lost during transit to major metropolitan areas are laughable if they weren’t paid for by me and everyone here in SoCal. Again, government taking a good idea and turning it into a pathetic money pit. Just like the stupid bullet train to nowhere. But I digress. I have installed solar on, and serviced solar systems installed by others, and almost every consumer has either zeroed out, or lowered their energy bill significantly. Now the northeast? Pacific NW? Maybe not going to be the best investment. But there are also better ways of producing electricity. Maybe Duke Energy has a few ideas about keeping energy clean.

The bottom line is I agree with you on a lot of points, and I also disagree with you on others. Either way we cut it, motor propulsion takes a lot of energy, and energy needs to be produced, harnessed, and consumed. There’s no such thing as clean energy that will sustain the masses, but that doesn’t mean we as a nation and people should give up trying to do better. Failure is a part of ultimate success.

You're joking right? You're actually trying to claim that mining materials for electric cars is more harmful than all the the fossil fuel burning cars on the road? That's ludicrous. I would ask you for some sort of citation on that, but I'm 100% certain you don't have any.

And electric is a niche market? Wow, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Electric cars will outsell fossil fuel cars within 20 years.

yes, mining for all the materials, and the disposal of those materials when the batteries are too weak is more harmful.

'Renewable energy' on the scale that is needed to be free of fossil fuels is a pipe dream.

Electric cars need to be recharged, which is mostly done by fossil fuel, or nuclear where is't available, nut is still augmented by fossil fuel.
Solar is a joke. Even Fl, which gets more sunlight on average than any other state, can't hold enough solar panels to provide the required energy to run for one day.

I don't play in echo chambers like leftist morons (which you appear to be) do.

As someone who keeps up with battery stuff… Both LiFePO4 and Lithium-Ion variants which are used in cars today are 100% recyclable. It’s surprisingly cleaner than most people think.

In addition to that, many programs have already been started by the Department of Energy around what happens to lithium batteries after its service life. In the EV car world, those modules are often times re-purposed for stationary power storage. There is a entire segment of DIYers dedicated to doing just that too. All of this is going to support the long road to the adoption of renewables. Probably not in my lifetime would I see or even believe a fully electric society, but I think it’s about using other options to help preserve others.

What I don’t understand is the amount of hate towards renewables… I got some small DIY home brew project I use to power my office I did just for fun. I made it using 100% recycled batteries from an electric car, and it works damn good.

Even if its not solar, there is wind, hydro, all viable options in addition to burning dinosaurs.

Is this City or Highway driving?

Big difference and especially true for all those living in the big cities on the west coast. Gas is way too expensive.

I've had this discussion with my mechanic a few months back. He swears by putting Premium gas in his cars even though they do not require. He doesn't do it for the performance but because he says that it keeps his fuel injectors cleaner. I can see his point but I can't help but think that you can accomplish the same thing by adding a cleaner additive to the fuel.

He said that he has seen repairs done to fuel injection systems that could have been avoided if Premium gas was used.

I have always ran regular gas and never had an issue.

I'm not the expert, but my brother is a petroleum engineer who put in 27 or so years with Mobil and now works as a consultant...he puts regular gas in all his cars. and on a related note....buys whatever synthetic oil is on sale, as long as it's the recommended weight for the vehicle and is checked/changed regularly.