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Old 07-31-2003, 10:40 AM #1
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Premium vs. Regular Fuel

Why use premium gas when regular will do?
By James R. Healey, USA TODAY

Marti Mayne once fueled her low-octane Subaru with high-octane gas. Not now. Premium-gas prices "went sky high, and now I just use low grade" to motor around Yarmouth, Maine, where she runs a marketing business.

When prices dropped earlier this year, she stuck with cheaper fuel because "I don't think that my car runs any differently on high, medium or lower grade."

She's right. Engines designed for regular fuel don't improve on premium and sometimes run worse. And today's engines designed for premium run fine on regular, too, their makers say, though power declines slightly. (Background: About Octane ratings)

But premium lovers are passionate. "I would simply curtail driving rather than switch grades," says Bill Teater of Mount Vernon, Ohio, who puts high-test in both his Cadillacs, though only one recommends it. He's sure both the DeVille and the Escalade run rough and lack pep on regular.

Prejudice and preference aside, engineers, scientists and the federal government say there's little need for premium.

When fuel's cheap, motorists are willing to pay 20 cents or so more for premium. But as gas prices sneak back up, the mental wrangle begins anew over whether it's OK to burn cheaper, regular-grade gas.

AS PRICES RISE, CONSUMERS
SHUN PREMIUM GAS
Average price of a gallon of premium gasoline:
1993 $1.30
1999 $1.36
2002 $1.58
20031 $1.80
Premium gas share of all gas sold:
1993 19.9%
1999 16.8%
2002 13.5%
2003 12.1%

The answer almost always is yes.

"I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas.

"My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.

Premium
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:41 AM #2
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Part II

As long as it's clean

Profit is meaningless to the modern engine, which, regardless of what's specified in the owner's manual, hardly cares what you use
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Old 07-31-2003, 10:49 AM #3
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This article is in agreement with the previous discussions on this board:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showth...=&threadid=377

For the 4runner, i am pretty sure that 87 octane is good enough for the V8 and V6. For one thing, Sequoia/Tundra engine is identical to the 4runner's but runs on regular fuel.
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Old 07-31-2003, 11:31 PM #4
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When I saw the article in this morning's paper, I immediately thought of this forum!!

On my current road trip (will be 1,500 miles or so when complete, mostly highway miles), I've tested 87 and 93 octane fuel. Also tested 10% ethanol fuel and standard dinosaur fuel.

Net -- no noticeable difference in the V6 in terms of mileage or highway power. With 87 octane, it will easily jump from 70 to 80 mph to pass an 18-wheeler. Mileage has been running around 21-22 highway, 19 mixed (Chicago traffic that goes 0 to 60 to 0 pretty quickly).

I've run it in 2WD mode all trip, with the air conditioner running almost all the time.

With 23 gallons in the tank, that gives a range of over 450 miles, although the trip computer says 420.

Unless I run across a station (and did in Bloomington, IL) where premium fuel is the same price as regular, I'll just stick with 87 octane and save $0.20 per gallon. That will leave a bit more money for mods!!
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Old 01-06-2004, 12:13 AM #5
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Here is an interesting link to gasoline topic:

http://www.vettenet.org/octane.html

They are advice for Corvette owners...but should apply to everyone else.

Excerpts:

Base gasoline:

Crude oil differs depending on where it's from, and consequently, what comes out of it when it's refined also differs. There are books on the subject and I can't possibly do the subject justice here. As the oil differs, what is available for blending and cutting is different. In the end, however, the refiner has to make economic choices, based on what's available to him from the oil he is refining, on how to get the required octane to sell (as well as meet MANY other criteria that make gasoline, gasoline -- again I can't do justice to it here). What I generally (but not exclusively) see is that BASE (no additve added to it -- you can't buy this, it isn't offered for sale) premium gasoline leaves less deposits behind than other grades. There are certain types of molecules in regular and mid-grade BASE gasolines that simply do not exist in premium gasoline that cause much of this. Additives (see definition below) are added to the gasoline to help get rid of these deposits, and modern additives do a marvelous job of this. What you buy is additized gasoline.

Brand of gasoline:

Some of you probably know this, others may be shocked by it. Oil companies swap base gasoline all the time. Let's say I have a refinery in Houston and you have one in Dallas. It makes little sense for me to truck my Houston gasoline to Dallas and for you to truck your gasoline from Dallas to Houston when gasoline is a commodity product. So, I let you draw 100,000 gallons of base gasoline from my storage tank in Houston for your Houston gas stations, and you let me draw 100,000 gallons of base gasoline from your Dallas holding tanks for my Dallas gas stations. That way, we both save on shipping. Yup, Texaco gasoline may have come from a Shell refinery and vice-versa. At a gasoline terminal you may see trucks from up to six different companies all loading at the SAME terminal (that for example may be supplied exclusively by Shell). What comes next, however, is what makes Texaco Texaco and Shell Shell. Additive. Each company has its own additive and adds it to the base gasoline. So while the base gasoline may be the same, the additive is different, and hence the brand of gasoline you use is different because of the additive, not the base gasoline.

Which additive is better?:

Given the above discourse, it's obvious that we all want the gasoline with the best additive. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Additves respond differently in different base gasolines (even of the same grade). Also, some additves work better with gasolines used in a carbureted car vs one that uses fuel injection. On a practical level, additives are going to be developed today for today's cars -- meaning fuel injected cars. For Corvette owners who have carbureted Vettes (like me), this is unfortunate. Carbureted engines leave a LOT more deposits behind than fuel injected cars. From a regulatory stand point, California was the first to call for all gasolines to pass the BMW test (port-fuel-injected engine) in all grades of gasoline. Like all regulations, this one had various massages put to it, but the net effect was that all oil companies went to work developing additives that are a LOT better today than 10 years ago AND they are used in all grades (not just premium -- hence the argument to use premium to get a better additive went out the window).
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Old 01-06-2004, 12:14 AM #6
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Here are important excerpts:

Insider's trick on gasoline additives:

No matter what you do or what you drive, this trick will help you keep down deposits inside your engine. You see, additives themselves will make deposits and/or create a deposit that is different from the one made by base gasoline alone. If you think about this for a moment, you'll come to realize that your engine will build some kind of deposit based upon what additive you are using. Yes, it will build at a slower rate, but it will build deposits. At some level this will taper off (but this is maximum deposits and what Corvette owner wants that!). So what do you do? Simple, switch to a different brand of gasoline (this will almost assure you of getting a different additive but not always. Some companies buy additives from other companies, so it could be the same. More on this later). What this will do, is the new additve will look at the deposit formed from the old additive as foreign and begin removing it. Now after 5000 miles, you'll be rid of this deposit but you'll have a new one from your most recent additive, so switch back and start the process all over again. As an analogy, this is like building an immune response to an anti-biotic, so your doctor gives you a new one. I know of absolutely no additive that will work as well as switching back and forth between additives. On a molecular level this makes perfect sense.

What about fuel injector additives?

Give the money to charity where it'll do some good; your fuel injectors will never know the difference. Other than a narrow window in 86-87 where some fuel injectors fouled, the modern (meaning post 87) injectors are of a design that won't foul unless you put some really old rotten gas through them. We had one guy in our group whose job it was to test our gas and competitors brands for injector fouling. He couldn't do it with '88 and newer injectors (with any brand of gas!). I mean he couldn't even get these injectors to foul a little. The only way he could run fouling tests was to buy a specific type and brand of pre-88 injectors (and he had a really hard time finding them. He bought up all he could find. -- Sorry can't tell you type and brand, but I doubt any of you have them). If you store your Vette over the winter and start it on gas that's been in the tank all those months, you will likely foul your injectors some. But if you can get it started and put fresh gas in it, all the additive packages (in the gas you buy) I've seen to date will clean the injectors in 1-2 tanks.
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:21 PM #7
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regular vs premium

I drive an `88 4Runner with a sucked out 3.0 V6. When I first got the truck, in `93, I used only regular, then my friend, who drove an `88 Iroc-z, told me to try the premium. I laughed! Well, soon I tried it. The results...My sucked out V6 woke up a little. Using 94 octane compared to 87 increased power under hard accleration. I`ve since experimented a little and found that if you drive normally regular gas is fine, but if you drive like me, with the right foot on the floor, Premium fuel is great. This is especially true on performance engines, like my wifes `89 Cressida with a 3.0 inline six. I did however figure out that some gas is garbage. At some fill ups I found that my fuel mileage decreased considerably. I concluded that the additives make a difference. Ethonal is good way to keep water out of your tank, helps with power and keeps the injectors clean. My 4Runner now has almost 400,000km (245,000 miles) on it with the original injectors and it still runs smooth. The higher octane does increase the mileage a little, but not enough to justify the price. I still fill up with premium. I get my gas at the same name, but I mix up where I fill it. This I think is the best thing to do.
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Old 04-17-2004, 03:26 PM #8
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I use premium gas...My 4R gets 330 miles per tank..

I wonder how many miles can your 4Rs go per tank..?
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Old 04-17-2004, 06:18 PM #9
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Quote:
I use premium gas...My 4R gets 330 miles per tank.
330 miles per tank is less than 15 mpg. I use 87 octane and get better mpg than that in mixed city/highway driving. Are you saying that you think that high octane will give you better gas mileage? I don't think so but I have some magnets that I can sell you; they polarize the gasoline molecules so that they are all spinning in the same direction as the earth's rotation so that you can take advantage of the coriolis force to improve your gas mileage.
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Old 05-03-2004, 03:49 PM #10
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as aj884runner stated, I am the same kind of driver. I always zig-zaging and give a hard acceleration when I try to pass other vehicle and especially truck. I always afraid of something could happen while I am passing.

Based on my 04 4Runner V6 the computer shows 15mpg mixed city / highway.

I will follow the excerpt advise above and will switch brand between Amoco/BP (current) and Texaco every 5000 miles or so.

Thanks everyone for this great posting.
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Old 05-07-2004, 05:13 PM #11
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Quote
330 miles per tank is less than 15 mpg. I use 87 octane and get better mpg than that in mixed city/highway driving. Are you saying that you think that high octane will give you better gas mileage? I don't think so but I have some magnets that I can sell you; they polarize the gasoline molecules so that they are all spinning in the same direction as the earth's rotation so that you can take advantage of the coriolis force to improve your gas mileage.
________________________________

The theory goes something like this, higher compression without detonation gets more work out of the same amount of gas. Because the fuel system does it's own spark advance and fuel mixture it will figure it out and get whatever it can out of the energy available. Actually lower octane fuel has more energy per gallon but higher octane can be squeezed harder because it burns a bit slower and therefore does not preignite.

So there may be a bit more power with higher octane, but your driving conditions and habits will determine your mileage much more than the octane rating.

By the way, I have tried both and can't tell the difference, so it's low octane for me.
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Old 07-07-2004, 03:54 PM #12
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The only way to know you're getting sufficient octane is to monitor knock and/or ignition timing advance.

I'm certain the lateset model 4runners use knock sensor feedback control to retard ignition timing when the octane isn't up to par.

Here is a thread that I made on Supraforums to determine what my Supras octane requirements are at various power levels.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...hreadid=156914

Here is the palm datalogger I use to monitor timing advance:

http://www.obdmeter.com/

This is something you do NOT want to guess about. Engine life is severly compromised when it sees frequent detonation.

I'm running 93 octane now and need to check the timing advance using my palm logger on the 4runner.

When using FI octane requirements become even more critical. I'm going to supercharge the V8 4runner and I would bet that 93 octane will not be sufficient. I'll post some logs and timing data and try to find what octane will allow full timing (no knock). When I find the correct octane requirement, I bet the SC'd V8 will last just about as long and have no more problems than a 4runner that is NA.

Does anyone know what the 4runners timing map looks like at wide open throttle (WOT)? I need to know what full timing is when the knock sensors are not sensing any knock. I guessing they'll be similar to the Supras.
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Old 07-28-2004, 10:34 PM #13
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Should you use high-octane Premium gasoline?
by Jim Kerr

With the price of fuel high, drivers want to save money whenever they can, so the natural tendency is to fill up with the cheapest gas. For many of us, this works just fine but some car manufacturers specify that higher fuel octane is required. Do we need to use higher octane fuel? Maybe - maybe not!

Octane rating is a measurement of the fuel's ability to resist self-ignition. Fuel can be ignited prematurely by high compression ratios or hot deposits in the engine cylinders. When premature ignition (pre-ignition) occurs, extreme pressures build up in the cylinder. This sudden rise in pressure causes vibrations that can break piston rings and pistons, damage engine bearings and break crankshafts. Obviously, we want to avoid this damage so we need to use fuel that will not cause problems.

Pull up to the pumps and you typically find three grades of fuel - regular, mid-grade and premium. Although the octane rating varies slightly from different suppliers, regular has a minimum octane rating of 87. Mid-grade is commonly rated at 89 octane and premium is rated at 91 or higher octane. Alcohols blended with fuel raise the octane rating of the fuel. For example, premium grade alcohol blended fuel may be rated at 95 octane.

These octane ratings are an average figure based on two methods of testing fuel. The Research Octane Number (RON) is a calculated number, while the Motor Octane Number (MON) is a measurement of pre-ignition resistance in a specified research engine. Check the labels at the fuel pumps and you will often see the formula RON + MON divided by 2 = Octane rating.

If your owner's manual specifies that your vehicle needs regular fuel, then there is no real benefit of using higher octane fuels. The only exception is if you are experiencing pinging or pre-ignition in your engine. Modern fuel injection engines use knock sensors on the engine to measure the severity of any engine knocks. If a knock is detected that could cause engine damage, the computer will retard ignition timing until the knock is no longer present or until the base minimum ignition timing is reached. As soon as the knock stops, the computer advances the ignition timing again for better performance.

On older cars without computerised engine controls, a driver may be able to hear pinging or pre-ignition in the engine and could reduce it by lowering the load on the engine. With the use of modern knock sensors, by the time you hear any engine knock, the timing has been retarded so much that both fuel economy and engine performance are seriously affected. If you suspect that your vehicle's fuel economy has dropped off or performance is sluggish, try a tank full of a higher octane fuel. If the economy and performance improve, then you have likely been experiencing pre-ignition. Sometimes adjustments can be made to enable you to go back to regular grade fuel, but if the problem is caused by deposits inside the engine, then using a higher grade fuel is suggested and could even be more economical by improving your fuel mileage.

Open the gas door on some vehicles and you will find a sticker that states "Premium Fuel Required" or "Premium Fuel Suggested". High performance vehicles have higher engine compression ratios and often operate hotter, both of which can cause pre-ignition to occur. Even though these vehicles typically use knock sensors to detect engine knock and protect the engine, you are probably better off to use the fuel specified.

There are exceptions. For vehicles where "Premium Fuel is Suggested" a lower grade of fuel can be used is some situations. Operating the vehicle in cold or cool weather or under light loads at low speeds reduces the possibility of pre-ignition occurring. You can probably use mid-grade or even regular fuel, especially during the winter months. The vehicle will not have the performance potential it would with premium fuel, but if you are not using the performance, why spend the money on fuel to support it?

If you are not sure what fuel to use, start with the fuel grade specified by the manufacturer and keep track of your fuel economy. Then go up or down a grade of fuel. If fuel economy stays the same, then stay with the cheapest grade of the two. If fuel economy drops, return to the original grade of fuel. Even high performance cars can be driven with regular grade fuel but only if the driver is aware that the vehicle should be driven sedately.

Many drivers believe that using a premium grade fuel is better for their vehicle and produces more power. Not true. As long as the fuel does not pre-ignite, any grade of fuel will produce the same amount of power. Save some money at the pumps and optimize your fuel economy by selecting the correct grade of fuel for your operating requirements.
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Old 07-29-2004, 09:47 AM #14
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I developed knock and ping in my '97 4Runner at about 100,000 miles and got worse until I sold it with about 130k.

I'm not taking any chances with the '03 because I will probably want to keep it until at least 150k. So for piece of mind I always have and always will put premium in my '03.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:39 AM #15
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Always thought only old vehicles should run on low octane gas. :bonk:

I usually use 95 RON in my 92, V6, 3.0L Limited 4R and recently reached 13.25 mpg on 2wd / mainly highway usage at 75/80 mph.

After reading this thread, I first tried with a full tank of 100 RON gasoline and must confess I noticed no difference at all (nor riding nor in consumption).

Second experiment was filling the tank with 85 RON. For my surprise, the engine is now running smother than usual and once again there seams to be no difference when riding (don't know mpg results yet).

Amazing. MPG improved! (raised from 13.25 to 14.25).
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