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Old 02-05-2019, 06:23 PM #16
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Originally Posted by Bumbo View Post
@4Reak Show



I really try not to get involved with other peoples wiring setups, design, and engineering... but...



1) What is the size of the wire you are using

2) What is the length of the longest wire run

3) What size fuse did you select (500A?)

4) What is the design load (max load for the winch component on the spec sheet)

I appreciare that but I'm sincerely trying to help people.

1) wires are the same size that came with the winch. Something around 2 gauge or 1/0.

2)Same length that came with the winch, about 5.5-6'

3) correct. 500a ANL Fuse

4)maximum winch draw is advertised at 435 max. Probably a lot less during lighter pulls. But 435 is advertised as the most it's capable of pulling
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:05 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbo View Post
@4Reak Show

There are certain instances where a breaker could fail… In a high current dead short, it is possible to weld the contacts of a breaker in an on position. Most breakers on the market are thermal devices… they blow based on heat. It’s good to remember, where a breaker will fail, a fuse would not.

With that out of the way, the main point of a fuse should be to protect the wiring / infrastructure of the truck. The fuse should be sized to protect the weakest component in the chain. It’s also worth mentioning that a 5 amp fuse, doesn’t blow at 5 amps. It should be able to carry a 5A load RMS. Where the fuse blows is part of the fuse design… including how fast or slow it breaks the circuit.

Just as an example, here is a video I made for another forum where people build battery packs… I was testing a 3A fuse for other members to see if it would be suitable for the application. It consistently blows at 5 amps… that’s 40% more power than stamped on the fuse. Hypothetically, if your fuse was anything alike, a 400 amp fuse might actually blow at 560 amps with a ramped load.

YouTube

If you need to do an emergency break of a high current circuit under load… you want to use a contactor. That can be triggered using either a current clamp to trigger it, or a couple emergency off push buttons located in strategic places.

Either way, a fuse is not a reliably way to stop a run-away winch… there is a chance it could creative significant damage before it even reaches the point it would flow a fuse. If you want to get a better idea of actual real world loads during winching, you must measure it with a current clamp in use. Under sizing would only create problems during actual use, and oversizing would negate any protections to the vehicle wiring and winch itself. The fuse is there to protect from catastrophe electrical even like an internal short or wiring issue which would have otherwise resulted in a vehicle fire or electrical damage.
anything can happen, but an appropriate sized breaker that is used as a breaker and not an on/off switch (while power is engaged) will most likely fail open. If it fails. But sure a fuse Is a sure bet for failing open. Fuses also function based on heat by the way. I’ve now looked up the owners manual for his listed winch models posted in this thread. Not the best installation guide, but it does list expected current based on load. The only reason I’m suggesting a breaker is due to his wanting to isolate while not in use. The only thing needed for a safe circuit is appropriate fusing, and wire/connector size. the only reason I chimed in is because he posted a guess at the appropriate fuse, and titled it electrical safety. Fuses come in fractional sizes so throwing an extra 65amps at it is not well thought out. It should say directly on the motor what it’s rated for, apart from the manual. “Should”. I don’t know which model he has, and don’t really care anymore at this point. I maybe didn’t breast feed the info to him, but dudes a grown man. Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:57 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Industrialwrench View Post
Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.
I thought my video example did a good job of explaining that… it showed a 3A fuse requiring 40% more current than rated to blow in 9-10 seconds.

If you were to apply the same 10 seconds of overcurrent to a 500 amp ANL you would need about 200% more current than rated. Meaning it could pass about 1000 amps +/- for 10 seconds before it blows.

Even to blow in 1 second it’s going to pass about 1600 to 2000 amps of current.



The potential for components damage is likely in this setup. For example, you could permanently damage the winch from a over current condition or low voltage pull before blowing a fuse.

That said, I understand his though process and methodology in what he did and why he did it, but yes, there is more to fuse sizing than just picking a value.

Last edited by Bumbo; 02-05-2019 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:42 PM #19
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Winch electrical safety

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Originally Posted by Bumbo View Post
I thought my video example did a good job of explaining that… it showed a 3A fuse requiring 40% more current than rated to blow in 9-10 seconds.

If you were to apply the same 10 seconds of overcurrent to a 500 amp ANL you would need about 200% more current than rated. Meaning it could pass about 1000 amps +/- for 10 seconds before it blows.

Even to blow in 1 second it’s going to pass about 1600 to 2000 amps of current.



The potential for components damage is likely in this setup. For example, you could permanently damage the winch from a over current condition or low voltage pull before blowing a fuse.

That said, I understand his though process and methodology in what he did and why he did it, but yes, there is more to fuse sizing than just picking a value.

Now THIS is helpful. Full of actual facts and thoughts instead of arrogant insults. I will now downsize my fuse to something smaller to accommodate my desired affect. Numerically, it worked out, however the performance rating turns out to be vastly different than the actual value. This is interesting.

I'm also going to guess that someone down the road may find it useful that the number stamped on the side of a fuse does not guarantee its determined performance. Thank you for this. When information is delivered in a respectful and scientific manor backed up facts it tends to be accepted more readily.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:49 PM #20
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Winch electrical safety

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Originally Posted by Industrialwrench View Post
anything can happen, but an appropriate sized breaker that is used as a breaker and not an on/off switch (while power is engaged) will most likely fail open. If it fails. But sure a fuse Is a sure bet for failing open. Fuses also function based on heat by the way. I’ve now looked up the owners manual for his listed winch models posted in this thread. Not the best installation guide, but it does list expected current based on load. The only reason I’m suggesting a breaker is due to his wanting to isolate while not in use. The only thing needed for a safe circuit is appropriate fusing, and wire/connector size. the only reason I chimed in is because he posted a guess at the appropriate fuse, and titled it electrical safety. Fuses come in fractional sizes so throwing an extra 65amps at it is not well thought out. It should say directly on the motor what it’s rated for, apart from the manual. “Should”. I don’t know which model he has, and don’t really care anymore at this point. I maybe didn’t breast feed the info to him, but dudes a grown man. Maybe you’ll have better luck explaining why an oversized fuse is always a bad idea.

All you had to say was "the numerical value stamped on a fuse doesn't necessarily determine its capacity to open a circuit" and then drop a link or whatever.

You opted to come off significantly more pompous than needed. Your information can and will help someone, so I would suggest in the future to work on your delivery. And there may come a day where you don't know something. Humility isn't the end of the world.
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:04 PM #21
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The potential for components damage is likely in this setup.

I wanted to ask: is it any more dangerous than no fuse at all? Since the factory manual shows no fuse whatsoever. I understand the sizing my exceed my battery's potential and may be "useless" but isn't some fuse better than no fuse at all?
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:10 PM #22
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I wanted to ask: is it any more dangerous than no fuse at all? Since the factory manual shows no fuse whatsoever. I understand the sizing my exceed my battery's potential and may be "useless" but isn't some fuse better than no fuse at all?
No, it’s not any more dangerous really. An oversized fuse would be similar to not having one at all.

If someone is going to ask me a blanket statement question: Should I always fuse?, I am going to say yes. A fuse is like insurance… it’s generally better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I have projects where I have not fused in certain areas, where the battery run is either very short or heavily protected or tamper proof with little to no chance of compromise or short. (Home battery bank, static / non-mobile application) I did this as a calculated risk, and to reduce line resistance / sag under load. I have protection (fuse & breaker) at the source load end, not at the battery to battery interconnects.

Winching is one of those weird applications that have a potential for very high peak loads, but are often intermittent or for short duration. I guess it would be possible to blow a fuse during a hard pull which is why they might exclude it.

Remember that voltage also plays a roll in amp draw, ohms law.

Say a winch wants to use 5000 watts at max load…
5000 / 13.8 volts = 362 amps

Lets say you alternator died, and you needed to do the same recovery on just battery alone… sitting at 12.5 volts battery only.
5000 / 12.5 = 400 amps

Let’s say voltage sag was bad… which it probably will be 11.8 volts under load
5000 / 11.8 = 424 amps

See where I am going with this? Manufacture doesn’t know your electrical system, they don’t know if you have HO alternator, dual battery to help with sag under load, running AGM voltages.

If you want my honest opinion, I think they winch manufacture probably excludes a fuse from the diagram because they figure that completing a hard pull even with equipment stress and excess heat is worth no pull at all. The cynic in me would say they don’t want to deal with supporting it or dealing with end user who are having problems. Less calls into support.

Best practices obviously dictates to use one, but with intermittent loads like that, the heat generated probably isn’t going to be catastrophic for a short duration. That said it sure helps to overbuild the winch electrical to support it…

Last edited by Bumbo; 02-05-2019 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:10 PM #23
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All you had to say was "the numerical value stamped on a fuse doesn't necessarily determine its capacity to open a circuit" and then drop a link or whatever.

You opted to come off significantly more pompous than needed. Your information can and will help someone, so I would suggest in the future to work on your delivery. And there may come a day where you don't know something. Humility isn't the end of the world.
The only person to sling any insult is you dude. Like over and over again. At best I called your bad drawing cute, because it is incorrect and only further shows you don’t fully understand what the circuit is doing, yet are giving advice and posturing. Learn to read text without emotion, and be more objective to the information you read. You’re the individual without an electrical background trying to help the public with electrical advice.

Last edited by Industrialwrench; 02-05-2019 at 10:26 PM. Reason: I removed an emoji thing at the end because I didn’t mean for it to go there. iPhone interpret text thing.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:32 PM #24
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The only person to sling any insult is you dude. Like over and over again. At best I called your bad drawing cute, because it is incorrect and only further shows you don’t fully understand what the circuit is doing, yet are giving advice and posturing. Learn to read text without emotion, and be more objective to the information you read. You’re the individual without an electrical background trying to help the public with electrical advice.

Man you sure are something. You realize you've yet to give out one sound piece of "WHY" advice. You just keep saying "WHAT" and have dished out zero "WHY's". So I'll ask: what it wrong my my basic drawing I did? Please show me how it done so I can learn? I'm honestly asking for education so I don't make similar mistakes later on.
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Old 02-06-2019, 10:51 PM #25
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Honestly I see why you drew what you did. Controller should be controlling power for both directions and a line of voltage powering the motor. I chuckled about your drawing before seeing the factory one so I now understand why you drew what you did. Not that it’s correct, but whatever. Schematics are difficult to read and appently just as difficult to explain. I think I did the same thing I accused you of by reading emotionally into text. I thought I had explained what and why In my first post and misconstrued your response. I’m turning into a grumpy old man that expects everyone to be one the same wavelength. The best way to learn schematics is an apprenticeship. It’s truly that difficult for most. Aside from that get a reference book ( UGLYs is a good one), multimeter, and some circuits to play with isolated and discharged. Enjoy the winch. You can always use mechanical advantage to increase pulling power without increasing motor load, the increase goes to the anchor points though...
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Old 02-07-2019, 12:13 PM #26
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I think an easily accessed quick disconnect at the battery makes the most sense. I wouldn't want a fuse inline with my winch. but a good manual breaker would be great.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:49 PM #27
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Wanted to thank @Bumbo and @Industrialwrench for educating me.

I've been messing with 12v DC systems for 13+ years and now 110 AC RV systems for over a year. I always knew a fuse could handle more than its rating for a brief duration but I didn't know by HOW MUCH more. And in the case of ANL fuses, average about 150% or more.


Here's a great ANL fuse time vs amp graph


And for all this new info I've gathered, I'm downsizing my winch fuse to a 300 amp. That should provide normal winch operation (since 435 is ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM which is going to be a rare event) and in the case of a dead short (releasing 800-1000 amps from my battery) should blow that fuse in about 1-2 seconds, which is significantly less likely to hurt my battery.

Hope this helps somebody some day. Research research research. Face value isn't always what it seems.
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:11 PM #28
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So You’re telling me you do most of your winching with the hood up? Come on. You should have installed a dc breaker rated for what your talking about. A single component to do what you’re dreaming up. The switch is basically useless. And to top it off you bought it from eBay. Not a wise choice for any electronics since you don’t know if it’s seen high current. You’ve titled the thread winch safety but you seem to lack electrical engineering skills. You’ve installed a kill switch and put an oversized fuse that won’t protect the device. Your diagram is cute though, might want to change solenoid to relay, and show d/c power instead of 3 phase a/c....I’m not sorry
Yeah, it is good you went back and read this again.

The drawing is reasonable/correct. The motor is not 3 phase, but there are 3 'power' wires going to it (two field connections, one armature connection) and a ground. There is such a thing as a solenoid used for power switching (even though it really is the same thing as a relay). He doesn't need to be an electrical engineer either. Fuses and switches aren't rocket surgery...

The point about sizing the fuse is correct though - but without pointing to actual information, somewhat useless. Also, you do want to "oversize" fuses in most applications to avoid any aging effects of the fuse which will change its rating with time (thousands of hours of use). For a highly intermittent use like a winch, it won't be an issue the the new 'lower' rated fuse is probably a good idea. I'd still keep the 500A in the truck, just in case...

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Old 02-11-2019, 07:24 PM #29
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Always carry spares…

I made a basic electrical troubleshooting kit I keep in the truck in case I need it on the trail. It’s a basic DC clamp meter / DMM, wire stripper, butt connectors and assorted crimp ends, crimper, and some OEM and aftermarket fuses in the ranges that apply to my setup. Electrical tape and some other odds and ends.
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:36 PM #30
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I agree with both above. I'm going to use the 300 as a "standard" fuse and still have a couple spare 500 on hand. But having one blow in the middle of a pull is a scary and irritating thought. Although the 300 blowing would indicate I'm pretty much maxing out the winch and maybe I should reevaluate the situation...

I also don't do hard core crawling at all. If I had a dedicated rig for only off-roading I would probably shy away from a fuse and either use a breaker and switch or nothing. But I like over thinking and over building.

Whenever I get real world tests I'll post updates.
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The 4Reak Show: 1995 4Runner, 3.4 swapped, manual conversion, supercharged & 7th injected, Eaton TrueTrac in rear, poly bushings F&R, lots of other outrageous add ons...

Wife's: 2016 Trail Premium, bone stock until she joins T4R.org one day...
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