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Old 04-16-2021, 02:56 AM #1
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unusual comparison of off-roading capabilities

For starters, obviously most 4WD vehicles are going to better off-road than even a 4runner that is only 2WD and even some AWD vehicles are going to be undoubtedly better as well, but....

How do you think a 2WD 4runner with 31" A/T tires and a 2" lift will fare off-road compared to stock AWD vehicles such as Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, or Subaru forester/outback? Does you think it matters much whether the 2WD 4runner is the V6 or V8?

Except for maybe the CVT versions which lose power too easily, I think the Subaru's are some of the better AWD vehicles for mild off-roading, but I think in general the CRV and RAV4 may have less clearance and less grippy AWD systems.

Certainly a lot of variables here but take driver competency out of the equation. Could assume all the vehicles have, for example, the same A/T tires since IMO, tires play a huge role in this. Should probably exclude any discussions of the rear lock on a 2WD just for this comparison. And finally, assume off-road scenarios that are a tad more challenging but nothing too crazy, such as some hills, semi-soft sand, snow or mud that isn't too deep.

What you think?
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:32 AM #2
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my $0.02

- v6 or v8 doesn't really make much of a difference for standard offroad, lower speed trails. if you're desert racing then ya a v8 would probably be better. 5th gen 4runners are all v6 and perform very well offroad even stock

- 2wd can definitely still be used offroad. especially with lift and tires. the stock vehicles you have listed probably have highway tires or all seasons. they generally aren't the best offroad as you have mentioned

- I think with proper tires all the vehicles you have listed can be taken offroad, just have to understand their limitations

- if you are planning on offroading very frequently and considering a 4runner, think about the 4wd versions. if you have a 2wd already and have no plans to trade it, you can make a very capable rig only having 2wd and rear locker + lift and tires
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Old 04-16-2021, 12:03 PM #3
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Depends what you mean by off roading - unpaved trails, rock/ mountain climbing, snow, mud, etc

I think tires will be the biggest thing

- Beyond that, youre looking at clearance over objects, attack and departure angles for tires and bumpers for objects, articulation (independent suspension likely to struggle more than solid axle) and then traction control systems to get power from the "wheels that slip to the wheels that grip"

most of the cross overs will have small amount of clearance, poor attack and departure angles and little articulation
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Old 04-16-2021, 01:28 PM #4
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Rear wheel drive trucks are fun to drive off road specially drifting in corners and keeping your speed as high as possible because the momentum keeps the truck from getting stuck on loose stuff.
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Old 04-16-2021, 03:17 PM #5
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A lot of people have a different perception of off-road is… the terrain can completely change the conversion.

If all you want to do is drive on a dirt road / fire road to get to a campsite… anything will do. I’ve done that with a one-wheel-peel Honda.

I do most of my off-road driving in the desert and it’s always a mix between the 2WD pre-runners and the 4WD trucks out there. I’ve seen the 2WD trucks do great because the driver is experienced. Anyone who has spent enough time driving in the sand will know that technique matters A LOT. Just because you have a 4WD doesn’t mean you won’t get stuck… I know this well from personal experience.

One of the most important things IMO in a 4x4/4WD truck is the low range transfer case, it’s what truly separates the 2WD and AWD drives from a true 4WD. Being able to have that mechanical advantage allows you so much more torque and control.

I don’t really rock crawl myself, but I drive my 4Runner in low range in the desert and often and it absolutely rips… v6 has never been something that held me back either.

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Old 04-16-2021, 04:02 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syr4RinNC View Post
I think tires will be the biggest thing

this...
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Old 04-16-2021, 04:37 PM #7
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Quote:
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I think tires will be the biggest thing
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this...
I started my entire off-road career on a set of Michelin ltx ms2 road tires… I too believe tires matter a lot, but I think most people would be surprised how far you can go on some standard road rubbers. I probably did way more than I should have on these things lol and it held its own just fine, but an upgrade for mud terrains was pretty drastic too.

I wouldn’t let tires hold you back… run what you brung. It’s only gona make you a better driver.

Plus... you can put good tires on a 2WD, 4WD, or AWD to level the playing field so its kind of a moot point for this thread.


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Old 04-17-2021, 05:16 PM #8
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Originally Posted by willthrill View Post
For starters, obviously most 4WD vehicles are going to better off-road than even a 4runner that is only 2WD and even some AWD vehicles are going to be undoubtedly better as well, but....

How do you think a 2WD 4runner with 31" A/T tires and a 2" lift will fare off-road compared to stock AWD vehicles such as Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, or Subaru forester/outback? Does you think it matters much whether the 2WD 4runner is the V6 or V8?

Except for maybe the CVT versions which lose power too easily, I think the Subaru's are some of the better AWD vehicles for mild off-roading, but I think in general the CRV and RAV4 may have less clearance and less grippy AWD systems.

Certainly a lot of variables here but take driver competency out of the equation. Could assume all the vehicles have, for example, the same A/T tires since IMO, tires play a huge role in this. Should probably exclude any discussions of the rear lock on a 2WD just for this comparison. And finally, assume off-road scenarios that are a tad more challenging but nothing too crazy, such as some hills, semi-soft sand, snow or mud that isn't too deep.

What you think?
That's a fantastic question!

Never a CVT guy, but few have done more with AT Outbacks than I have. So I can speak for that confidently.

SPEAKING OF DIRT

The FULLY STOCK 4Runner in 2WD is completely undrivable offroad on street tires. If anyone thinks otherwise, they have never driven a stock Subaru on dirt.

The STOCK SUSPENSION 4Runner on AT tires can survive dirt roads in 2wd, but is still a dreadful experience vs a Subaru.

BUT enter a 2WD 4Runner on QUALITY SUSPENSION and now we are talking comparisons. As a bare minimum quality suspension would mean 5100s or Eibach. However, my comparison below is based on better than that: 6112 on stiff springs and Icon 2.0 rear with Eibach springs.

So, if you drive a 2WD 4R with a QUALITY suspension on dirt, you are driving a fundamentally different vehicle from the stock one. Suddenly, the vehicle can actually stay straight over washboard and the next corner is no longer a fight for your life. Since the suspension soaks things up, you are actually handsomely outdoing a stock Subaru now, as your 4R offers a far more comfortable ride. I won't take it against a Subaru in corners, but it does corner with no drama.

From there, speaking of dirt, it becomes a matter of suspension. A Subaru can nowadays take an Ironman or basic Bilstein/Eibach suspensions. So in order to do better in the 4R you have to move up into a full 2.5 setup which will outlast the Subaru and offer a better ride quality.

Speaking of true 4x4 trails, neither the Subaru, nor the 2WD 4R apply.

However, there are many low end 4x4 trails where a Subaru is totally fine like Engineer Pass proper or Cinnamon Pass or White Rim Road and the like. Wherever speeds must be kept low for one reason or another and the terrain is seriously steep, a properly prepared Subaru will win or at least be much safer.

Speaking of high clearance trails

All of the above is obvious and self-evident to anyone with experience.

But things do get tricky when we start talking a high clearance trail. A Subaru or a 2WD 4R on quality suspension?

Three years ago, I would have said "Subaru!" Now that I have 4R experience with various suspensions, I will take the 4R in most cases.

As said already, the 2WD 4R will have to keep the speed up where the Subaru won't need to. BUT, when riding on a good suspension, that won't be a problem on nearly any trail a Subaru can make. The 4R will move faster and be more comfortable than the Subaru. It will carry 2.5 times the cargo payload (assuming my family's human and dog weight ).

On the other hand, there are cases where a Subaru should make it where the 4R might fail. This is likely to be loose steep hills as well as steep hills with rocks small enough for a Subaru to handle but steep and big enough to prevent the 4R from keeping its speed up. I think this can happen on a number of trails I have done on the OB, but on the vast majority a 4R on 2.5s will be better.

To sum it all up:

1/ Stock vs stock: Subaru
2/ 4R on 2.5 suspension vs modified Subaru: equivalent on dirt roads, 4R usually better on high clearance trails, if big loose hills present, 4R should drive the trail so that those be downhill.
3/ I will give a well-prepared Subaru the edge on a select number of low-end 4x4 trails that require low speeds and feature steep climbs. I would not really try any of those uphill in 2wd because of safety concerns.
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Old 04-19-2021, 06:32 PM #9
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Quote:
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That's a fantastic question!

Never a CVT guy, but few have done more with AT Outbacks than I have. So I can speak for that confidently.

SPEAKING OF DIRT

The FULLY STOCK 4Runner in 2WD is completely undrivable offroad on street tires. If anyone thinks otherwise, they have never driven a stock Subaru on dirt.

The STOCK SUSPENSION 4Runner on AT tires can survive dirt roads in 2wd, but is still a dreadful experience vs a Subaru.

BUT enter a 2WD 4Runner on QUALITY SUSPENSION and now we are talking comparisons. As a bare minimum quality suspension would mean 5100s or Eibach. However, my comparison below is based on better than that: 6112 on stiff springs and Icon 2.0 rear with Eibach springs.

So, if you drive a 2WD 4R with a QUALITY suspension on dirt, you are driving a fundamentally different vehicle from the stock one. Suddenly, the vehicle can actually stay straight over washboard and the next corner is no longer a fight for your life. Since the suspension soaks things up, you are actually handsomely outdoing a stock Subaru now, as your 4R offers a far more comfortable ride. I won't take it against a Subaru in corners, but it does corner with no drama.

From there, speaking of dirt, it becomes a matter of suspension. A Subaru can nowadays take an Ironman or basic Bilstein/Eibach suspensions. So in order to do better in the 4R you have to move up into a full 2.5 setup which will outlast the Subaru and offer a better ride quality.

Speaking of true 4x4 trails, neither the Subaru, nor the 2WD 4R apply.

However, there are many low end 4x4 trails where a Subaru is totally fine like Engineer Pass proper or Cinnamon Pass or White Rim Road and the like. Wherever speeds must be kept low for one reason or another and the terrain is seriously steep, a properly prepared Subaru will win or at least be much safer.

Speaking of high clearance trails

All of the above is obvious and self-evident to anyone with experience.

But things do get tricky when we start talking a high clearance trail. A Subaru or a 2WD 4R on quality suspension?

Three years ago, I would have said "Subaru!" Now that I have 4R experience with various suspensions, I will take the 4R in most cases.

As said already, the 2WD 4R will have to keep the speed up where the Subaru won't need to. BUT, when riding on a good suspension, that won't be a problem on nearly any trail a Subaru can make. The 4R will move faster and be more comfortable than the Subaru. It will carry 2.5 times the cargo payload (assuming my family's human and dog weight ).

On the other hand, there are cases where a Subaru should make it where the 4R might fail. This is likely to be loose steep hills as well as steep hills with rocks small enough for a Subaru to handle but steep and big enough to prevent the 4R from keeping its speed up. I think this can happen on a number of trails I have done on the OB, but on the vast majority a 4R on 2.5s will be better.

To sum it all up:

1/ Stock vs stock: Subaru
2/ 4R on 2.5 suspension vs modified Subaru: equivalent on dirt roads, 4R usually better on high clearance trails, if big loose hills present, 4R should drive the trail so that those be downhill.
3/ I will give a well-prepared Subaru the edge on a select number of low-end 4x4 trails that require low speeds and feature steep climbs. I would not really try any of those uphill in 2wd because of safety concerns.

Interesting and well described response!
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:03 AM #10
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I've been leading / taking part in weekly off road trips as part of the Facebook Group - Mark Twain Mafia. I've wheeled with all sorts of vehicles to include full size Ford F350's & Excursions, modified Subaru's, a plethora of Jeep Cherokees, mild to wild Wranglers, Chevy Tahoes, various Nissans - Xterra, Pathfinder, 2wd Frontier, various Land Rovers, Land Cruisers, Tacoma's, plus 1st - 5th gen 4Runners.

Here in the Ozarks - specifically the Forest Service Roads off Glade Top Trail in the Mark Twain National Forest we have a little bit of everything - rocks, mud, hill climbs, descents -rocky muddy versions of both, off camber sections, water crossings, etc. Most trails are tight with brush and pinstripes are expected.

Regarding Subaru - even with the lifts available and better wheels / AT tires, they just don't have enough ground clearance. They will scrape the underside like mad plus lift tires at every opportunity. Being so low to the ground there is really a good chance of body damage. If all you're doing is gravel / dirt roads, I'm sure a Subaru would be fine.

This fella took his Crosstrek on a Rigs and Coffee ride led by the local Land Rover group. He was scraping like mad and thankfully turned back before the trail got really rough. We were prepared to drag him if need be but that would've resulted in body damage. At one point he had a rear tire 5ft up in the air.






We had 2 Subies on our recent Memorial Day Run. One had it's front bumper removed, the other had what looked like a Wrangler or Liberty bumper pinned to the front. Both did well on the easy trail but thankfully didn't join us on the harder trail that has lots of rock shelves. If you don't have enough ground clearance you want sliders and skid plates to protect your undercarriage / body panels.

Pics:






On this same ride we had kid in an AWD Jeep Compass. I told him before we hit the trail that their is a good chance he would damage that vehicle. He said he was prepared and understood the risks. He lives 5 hours away and wanted to explore the area to see if it was worth bringing his built wrangler w/40's back. He said he'd be back.

He also skipped the harder / rockier trail.


At one point he needed a little tug to avoid sinking the compass.


I've hit a bunch of trails with my friend Neil and his 2002 2wd Desert Runner Frontier w/ limited slip rear. He gets around just fine but...

He avoids mud and wet inclines. He needs major wheel spin plus a lot of room to climb the rocky shelves = tearing up tires and good possibility of a hard landing breaking things. 4wd allows you to crawl when climbing. 2wd you need momentum - lots of it.

He likes me to wheel with him, as I have 4wd, rear locker, winch + a crap ton of recovery gear. If it downpours, I can drag him back to the trail head.



Video of him going up one of the easy trails:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzeLuVS_nRs

Full size rigs are interesting. I find taking the hard line is the fun line. With a full size rig there is no taking the cut around as they won't fit. They are forced to take the hard line. The other problem with long big full size rigs is they need to take 15 point turns where smaller / midsize vehicles can fit through trees easily.

There is a cut around for this mud hole, Skip in his Excursion wouldn't fit and had to go through it. He had to winch his way through. Nice thing was he knocked the mud down for the rest of us. I of course had to go through it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R1BTRwMoBU

Full size Chevy Silverado. He put a dent in one his doors...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcLYPxMvz_Q

Short little 2 min vid with all Jeeps + a wild custom built Wrangler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVo9hGBovo

Short video of me in my 4Runner used for the gif above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfdHe_EQRzI

Some group pics:





My thoughts...
Will a 2wd 4Runner go off road? Sure but you will tear up your tires + have a greater chance of damaging your vehicle using momentum where 4wd vehicles can crawl. Make sure you have a rear recovery point along with the front tow hook. Have a recovery rope along with you. A buddy with 4wd is much more helpful.

Warn the others in your group that you only have 2wd and that they need to give you lots of room. Slinging rocks at the vehicle behind you will see you never invited to a trail ride again.

I find 4wd, good tires, and a rear locker engaged is just about unstoppable. As soon as I go off a gravel / dirt road, I'm in 4low 1st-3rd gear. My locker gets quickly engaged and left on.

Ground clearance, sliders / skids will protect your vehicle from body / undercarriage damage.

If you find yourself out here in Missouri, come join us. We do trail runs just about every weekend:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/847177332803989
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Old 06-24-2021, 09:51 PM #11
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@Drobs ,

That's one of the best posts ever on this forum! No surprises: Subaru AWD really cannot deal with shelves. The wheels in air is part of the show, but shelves are a show stopper. Even small ones are a major pain in a Subaru. Underneath the clearance is fine, but rocker panels and bumpers are the problem. Then again, the bumpers protect the Subaru very well in that they don't allow (undetermined) drivers to get where the AWD would struggle. So I call them an early warning system

Tremendous review and great experiences. You have seen a ton.
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Old 06-25-2021, 12:34 PM #12
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@Drobs ,

That's one of the best posts ever on this forum! No surprises: Subaru AWD really cannot deal with shelves. The wheels in air is part of the show, but shelves are a show stopper. Even small ones are a major pain in a Subaru. Underneath the clearance is fine, but rocker panels and bumpers are the problem. Then again, the bumpers protect the Subaru very well in that they don't allow (undetermined) drivers to get where the AWD would struggle. So I call them an early warning system

Tremendous review and great experiences. You have seen a ton.
Thanks - I was impressed by the Subarus. I wouldn't take my Rav4 on these trails. Make that I'm not allowed to take the "wife's" awd Rav4 off road.

Here's a semi long 17 minute video.

Jump to about 15m30s for some Rubicon on the rocks drama. Talking with the owner afterwards he explains that longer wheelbase vehicles can skip over steps. Where a shorter wheelbase (2 door Wranger) can get hung up by them. Something I never knew / thought of. I just figured he didn't have his lockers engaged.


The Greer Family Wrangler Rubicon Takes on Glade Top Trail - YouTube
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Old 06-25-2021, 01:09 PM #13
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Yeah, the longer wheelbase is considered better for ledges. A lot more stable in off-camber spots as well.

Btw, it is hard to ignore how much things have changed over the last decade. Back in 2010, the 4R Trail was IMO head and shoulders above anything else unless you wanted a dedicated trail rig. Now, the third gen Raptor is a beast and Rubicons are much more livable and much better on the road than ever before. The Bronco is coming for both the Rubicon and the 4Runner.

I am not complaining because the 4R suits me best and dependability is by far my #1 concern as we wheel solo, but I am just commenting on the tall bar that Toyota has to clear with the re-design if they want the 4R to remain the #1 all-arounder.

As for Subarus, too little, too late. Ten years ago, trails were generally in much better shape and the current Wilderness package would have gone quite some way in the western states. Nowadays, 32" tires are like the bare minimum for comfort and capability. Again, not a complaint: Subaru did extremely well as a corporation to turn itself around and aim at the masses rather than at specialty trims, but simply an observation.

How do you like those 003 MT tires?
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Old 06-26-2021, 08:07 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAST4R View Post
Yeah, the longer wheelbase is considered better for ledges. A lot more stable in off-camber spots as well.

Btw, it is hard to ignore how much things have changed over the last decade. Back in 2010, the 4R Trail was IMO head and shoulders above anything else unless you wanted a dedicated trail rig. Now, the third gen Raptor is a beast and Rubicons are much more livable and much better on the road than ever before. The Bronco is coming for both the Rubicon and the 4Runner.

I am not complaining because the 4R suits me best and dependability is by far my #1 concern as we wheel solo, but I am just commenting on the tall bar that Toyota has to clear with the re-design if they want the 4R to remain the #1 all-arounder.

As for Subarus, too little, too late. Ten years ago, trails were generally in much better shape and the current Wilderness package would have gone quite some way in the western states. Nowadays, 32" tires are like the bare minimum for comfort and capability. Again, not a complaint: Subaru did extremely well as a corporation to turn itself around and aim at the masses rather than at specialty trims, but simply an observation.

How do you like those 003 MT tires?
I'm looking forward to the big Broncos. I think we'll see them everywhere. I was thinking that we might trade our Rav4 in on a 2 door Bronco but those plans have changed. Just bought a lake house / future Airbnb. Probably going to sell the Rav4 while it's in demand. We have 2 other vehicles to take its place.

I've seen one Raptor at a overland rally but not on the trails here in MO/AR. They are kind of rare. This area is cattle country. Lots of diesel pickups, pulling side by sides.

I'm enjoying the Geolandar MT's. I put them on in April and feel they allow me to take more difficult lines than my previous set of P rated stock size Falken Wildpeak AT's. I've always had AT tires previously - BFG and Falken.

The Falkens were great in the rain. The Geolanders are ok if you drive to the conditions. They slide around a bit if you're trying to go fast on curves. I do notice the weight of them. I figure I can get away with a mud terrain for the 1 to 2 snowfalls a year here. The snow is usually gone in week.

I air em down to 20psi for off road and then run them around 34 psi on road. I recently visited family in Michigan and should've aired them up higher. 600 miles each way, I was getting 15mpg. I guess it's about smiles per gallon.
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