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Old 11-10-2011, 03:47 PM #46
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Originally Posted by d2huffman View Post
There are actually 3..... lets see if I can remember the 3rd - ah - religion
Touche sir.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:48 PM #47
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Anyway. No one wants your gun. My point was that a far more effective public policy to reduce crime is to increase the effectiveness of the police force.


Here is an interesting study I stumbled across:
Rates of Household Firearm Ownership and Homicide Across US Regions and States, 1988


Now again. It admits no causality.
Again, no one is arguing with you about killing off the police force!! When did we get to this again??? WTF are you talking about?!

Nice study...again, it is at best as vague as my so-called "shoddy" stats. Again, what is your point?

SHOW ME SOME ****ING REAL DATA that you claim to see everyday in your GOP job! Otherwise, you are full of crap and your argument holds no more water than mine. So, stop with the stupid hate when you yourself have NOTHING.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:54 PM #48
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I did. That you don't know how to use it, is on you, not me. You have FBI crime stats, you have Census data. That is "real" world data. I am truly sorry if you do not understand how to "use" it.

The only data you should trust is RAW data. That graphs and pie charts given to you, are almost always, fixed.

Fixed stats. It is a huge issue. So, you want real knowledge. Real information. A real understanding, then go to the source. I can't help you if you haven't a clue how to examine and analyse statistical data. Most people spend years learning how to do complex statistical analysis. I gave you a study, published by a well respected school. You flew over that one.

What exactly do you want? Some uber secret folder that read "GOP STATS"... hahahaha. Come on.


Kinda like Cain. 9/9/9. Come on. He hasn't a chance. He has no real clue about governance.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:56 PM #49
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Originally Posted by DC runner View Post
Seriously? Did you read my bio? I am 1. A TN southerner. 2. Member of NRA, 3. Large firearm collecter. 4. Active member for GOP 5. Worker for a GOP member of Congress.

My point is that there are some members of OUR, MY, Whatever party. That refuse to accept reality and cling to time honored opinions, that have been shown to be untrue.


Anyway. No one wants your gun. My point was that a far more effective public policy to reduce crime is to increase the effectiveness of the police force.


Here is an interesting study I stumbled across:
Rates of Household Firearm Ownership and Homicide Across US Regions and States, 1988


Now again. It admits no causality.
I think you missed what my point was. What I was pointing out was why you felt the need to call people names who are supposedly on you side.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:56 PM #50
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Stats. Come on man. Are you in or out of college?

Here. Enjoy. You see, in the big boy world; results are not spoonfed, you have to analyse the data. So do it.

FBI — Uniform Crime Reports


You will see the number of crimes is rising, but not at the same level of the population. IN fact, per capita crime started falling in the 1990's. At this point, more and more states were enacting more effective police departments in response to the 70's and 80's.

Better training. Better funding.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS)

The 2012 Statistical Abstract: Crimes and Crime Rates


Everything you need to know is there. I recommend using SPSS for the statistical break down and the R factor determinate.


What you get, after it all is a determinant rating. You take that, you examine other factors.. you copy, rinse and repeat several thousand times.

Here is some for you:
United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2010
Yeah, i never graduated high school.

All dandy...but these stats are already known. NRA has used these stats and correlate them with gun ownership going up. You are not showing me anything new...despite my clear lack of education.

How is it that YOU correlate this decrease in crime rate with more effective police policy??? Did i miss that in one of your links? If so, then please point that out to me.

Yeah improved policing sure helped those Katrina victims who were left behind while the cops ran out of town...and left them defenseless against hoodlums and robbers. Yeah, and those riots across America nowadays sure give me a sense of being protected.
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:59 PM #51
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I think you missed what my point was. What I was pointing out was why you felt the need to call people names who are supposedly on you side.
*******Cough...BS...cough*********
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:09 PM #52
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Ok. Look.

I am sorry. This got off the track. How do I find a casual relationship, not a correlation. TWO separate things.

How do we show causal relationship? We look at many variables and we try to see determinate factors. Long story short, if you combed through the relevant fbi/census/etc. etc stats; you would find that over the past 40 years
1. Crime has fallen
2. Gun Ownership has fallen from its all time high to around 47 percent. It has remained at 47 percent, plus or minus 3%, for around 20 years. It does not appear connected to crime rates.
3. Finally, law enforcement effectiveness is directly linked to crime rates.

Finally. For Katrina. Understand that macro and micro examples are different things. Police didn't "run"... civic order was destroyed by an act of god. When order was re-established, by the Army and Police; crime fell back in line.

Look. I apologize. I am sorry if I came off as an elitist. I did my graduate work in UT Austin. I have nice memories of TX.


Also. My first comment, but us losing the war on Firearm ownership because we refuse to accept reality is directly targeted at the NRA.

I can tell you, in D.C.; the NRA is considered a joke. Lawmakers don't respect anything they say. Why? They lie. As a dues paying member, it irritates me when the mass mail people trying to scare people with lies.

Look. The way you protect firearm rights, which I support; is with the truth. When you lie, and you get caught in a lie, you lose all credibility.

Last edited by DC runner; 11-10-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:10 PM #53
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Kinda like Cain. 9/9/9. Come on. He hasn't a chance. He has no real clue about governance.
Well, look at it this way...his sexual prowess is far below Clinton's...his lack of governance is still way ahead of the "community organizer" that we now have in the White House.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:15 PM #54
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Originally Posted by DC runner View Post
2. Gun Ownership has fallen from its all time high to around 47 percent. It has remained at 47 percent, plus or minus 3%, for around 20 years. It does not appear connected to crime rates.
3. Finally, law enforcement effectiveness is directly linked to crime rates.

Finally. For Katrina. Understand that macro and micro examples are different things. Police didn't "run"... civic order was destroyed by an act of god. When order was re-established, by the Army and Police; crime fell back in line.

Look. I apologize. I am sorry if I came off as an elitist. I did my graduate work in UT Austin. I have nice memories of TX.
Gun ownership has stayed the same? NRA says differently. I can tell you for sure that in TEXAS, conceal carry permits have skyrocketed since Obama took office. I don't know what to tell you because you should ALREADY know this being a GOP rep and all. Ammo shortages are more common these days...i stockpile them!

Again, where are you getting info about police being more effective AND that has a direct link to drop in crime rate????? Did i miss a link in there somewhere???
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:16 PM #55
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OP, I would like to personally apologize for thread derailment. If you have any questions for me, shoot me a PM and I'll be glad to give you my opinion or expierence.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:17 PM #56
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Ultimately I would say that education, not educating people about guns, but school... people graduating highschool, going to college and university puts people in a social environment where money and objects is obtained through work and not stealing or killing to take what you want and hussling on the streets. And as education rises crime may go down. Or does it.....it may just be that shootings, and house break ins are down, but more and more educated bankers and accountants, and lawyers and merchants figure out how to embezel money, skim from the top, create fake expenses, etc....so white collar crime goes up instead. The crime that seemingly does not have a victim, or does it?

Still, sometimes, desperate times calls for desperate measures.....but in the opposite sense....not protection. You work hard, go to university, have a house, have kids, have savings, and all that disapears, goes underwater.....so to speak....maybe a la Katrina....now is your desperate time to feed and keep your 2 year old warm...many fathers will probably run into a grocery store and run off with a loaf of bread. That is our hunting ground. It may have been in the past that you went out for hunting deer or ducks or berries.....? Now food grows on a store shelf. Anyways just saying, food for thought.

As for gun control. Anyone can blow a fuse. In Canada....here we go again about Canada....we seemingly have gun control laws. But per capita we do have a large number of long guns....riffles and shotguns, even compared to the US. It is the hand guns that we control, you could have 50 shotguns if you like. Shoot.....the land of carribou, moose, ducks, geese...with no long guns?!.....wow!, I work at a place where whole work projects get put on hold during this time of year cause guys take off hunting for 2-4 weeks at a time. We do have guns up here too. Just can't conceal carry.....not easily legally anyway...unless you are in law enforcement and have some special need to do it. Or if you are a criminal then you have the freedom to conceal a rocket launcher if you wanted to....

We've had this crazy gun registry for a few years up here. Big debate as to keep it or scrap it. Doesn't seem to really be any indication that it worked to reduce crime. Either side has it's stats that contradicts the other. And really the stats also show that crime was in a decline from before the gun registry. So what is it?....a natural decline... so regardless of the gun registery it was going to decline anyway or is it that the gun registry helped the decline and maintained the decline.....we will never really know.

Big crazy violent crimes that have been commited in Canada, with multiple deaths and wounded, like school shootings or shopping mall shootings have almost exclusively been commited with registered guns. Guns that belonged to collectors, or that we were used for hunting, or were used exclusively for target practice in a shooting range. The piece of paper any of the gun control and gun registry laws were written on seemingly were not thick enough to stop the bullets.....oh well, time for better laws then...... and the use of thicker paper.

Anyone can blow a fuse, we'vehad police officers go nuts and doctors go crazy and kill there families and girlfriends in a fit of rage and anger. The gun doesn't know it was registered, and wasn't suppossed to be used to kill people.

One argument for the gun registry is that it is used by law enforcement it to identify if the home they are about to enter has any guns in it. Works good if the person registered all his guns, and if the person in there actually is someone who lives there and not someone who entered with their gun from somewhere else. And......really....the police will just casually enter a building or home with reports of violence after the gun registry says no guns in this house....what kind of morons are those....always enter to expect the worse......

Anyways, not sure where I stand 100% but I know laws and registries don't physically stop crime, But I do feel nervous knowing that people around me could be concealed carrying, since anyone can blow a fuse. But someone can blow a fuse with a baseball bat, a crow bar, and screw driver, a hammer, a steel chain or run me over in a 4Runner....there its about 4runners now................
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:22 PM #57
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Also. My first comment, but us losing the war on Firearm ownership because we refuse to accept reality is directly targeted at the NRA.

I can tell you, in D.C.; the NRA is considered a joke. Lawmakers don't respect anything they say. Why? They lie. As a dues paying member, it irritates me when the mass mail people trying to scare people with lies.

Look. The way you protect firearm rights, which I support; is with the truth. When you lie, and you get caught in a lie, you lose all credibility.
NRA lies...but the opposition ONLY tells the truth, right? WTF planet do you live on?! Seriously, for a GOP person, you sure are naive!


"Gun Ownership Rises to All-Time High,
Violent Crime Falls to 35-Year Low

Coinciding with a surge in gun purchases that began shortly before the 2008 elections, violent crime decreased six percent between 2008 and 2009, including an eight percent decrease in murder and a nine percent decrease in robbery. Since 1991, when violent crime peaked, it has decreased 43 percent to a 35-year low. Murder has fallen 49 percent to a 45-year low. At the same time, the number of guns that Americans own has risen by about 90 million. Predictions by gun control supporters, that increasing the number of guns, particularly handguns and so-called “assault weapons,” would cause crime to increase, have been proven profoundly lacking in clairvoyance."

Hmm, who do i believe? Seemingly, both sides (or same sides as DC Runner is really NRA person) view the stats differently.

Of course, because i am a NRA member, i am now a liar. Nice way to finish off your argument!

And yeah, i am still waiting for your DIRECT LINK b/w increase police effectiveness and decreasing crime rate!
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:36 PM #58
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I conceal carry because it is my right to protect myself from all you internet arguing crazy folk

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Old 11-10-2011, 04:36 PM #59
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Anyways, not sure where I stand 100% but I know laws and registries don't physically stop crime, But I do feel nervous knowing that people around me could be concealed carrying, since anyone can blow a fuse. But someone can blow a fuse with a baseball bat, a crow bar, and screw driver, a hammer, a steel chain or run me over in a 4Runner....there its about 4runners now................
Good post. Thanks. I am not a gun nut, despite my persona here. I don't collect guns...i buy gun(s) for a purpose. And that purpose is defending me and my family. I have equipped my house with things that will hopefully help keep my family safe. Nowadays, I drive plain cars to avoid attention. (Acura is only barely-there-luxury...so it does not count! ) So, i have no idea why this thread got shifted to police departments and crime rate...i could care less because past events have proven that you may not have a leg to stand on if things go wrong. I support my local police...and where i work, we have to work close with police whenever they bring in some weirdos off the street for medical care. But, i go a step forward to help protect my family just in case no one else is there to help us.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:36 PM #60
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Man. You are a riot. Who is the "other" side? I said the NRA lied, I also commented that the graphs you get from whatever organization are usually fixed.

Sides? Stop thinking there are only 2 options. That is a fundamental flaw in thinking. I know that the LEFT/RIGHT political divide likes to make it a US vs. THEM debate. A Hippy Liberal vs. a Crazy Tea Party member; this concept which you are using kills moderates. It kills the middle and pushes out moderates.

Anyway. You win. You are too smart for me. Congrats on your intellectual victory sir.

If you were actually curious to learn, go here:
SPSS - Download

Download a evaluation copy of SPSS, a pretty advanced statistical data program. Learn up on how to use it, and then examine some data.

Also. yes. The NRA lies. The Hippie Foundation for polar bears, lies. The leftist caricature of itself party, Lies. They all make up fake meaning to whatever they want. When I suggested you go to the source, the raw data, is was in a legitimate concern that you actually see real information. You see more interested in inferring I called you a liar or am a "liberal" pinko commie to actually debate.


And in conclusion. You win.
I cannot under any circumstances convince you that what you think is wrong, it will simply not happen. I don't know if you did or did not finish high school, or whether you hold a Ph.d in Political Science.

As for Cain or Perry, neither will win. The only one that appears to have any chance is Romney, but a large portion of the electorate do not "trust" a Mormon, so that may be an issue.
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