A lesson in how to handle a DUI checkpoint

tbst said:

Instead he chose to sit and waste everyone's time and be a bawse by posting a video on Live Link.

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Where do you guys see that he wasted anyone's time? Several members have gotten butthurt over this particular part - its laughable. Had you been behind this guy, you wouldnt know anything about this unless he showed you the video after the fact himself. This has been covered in those 14 pages you neglected to read. The video was 2 minutes long - slightly less than. He spoke to 2 separate officers - they were able to verify he wasn't intoxicated and he was able to not divulge any information that frankly, wasn't any of those cops business. How many of these have you been through? Have you been drinking is never the only question asked. In my experience, it is always followed up with where have you been, where are you gong? None of which is any of those officers business no more than my social security number is yours. At minimum, you are there no less than 90 seconds at best.

RunninInGA said:

Where do you guys see that he wasted anyone's time? Several members have gotten butthurt over this particular part - its laughable. Had you been behind this guy, you wouldnt know anything about this unless he showed you the video after the fact himself. This has been covered in those 14 pages you neglected to read. The video was 2 minutes long - slightly less than. He spoke to 2 separate officers - they were able to verify he wasn't intoxicated and he was able to not divulge any information that frankly, wasn't any of those cops business. How many of these have you been through? Have you been drinking is never the only question asked. In my experience, it is always followed up with where have you been, where are you gong? None of which is any of those officers business no more than my social security number is yours. At minimum, you are there no less than 90 seconds at best.

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Butthurt? No.

Annoyed that some idiot decided he was going to challenge the authorities in the most asinine way possible? Yes.

Bottom line is that unless you plan on overturning Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, you will be stopping at the next DUI check point, like it or not.

Raging on here certainly does nothing.

tbst said:

Butthurt? No.

Annoyed that some idiot decided he was going to challenge the authorities in the most asinine way possible? Yes.

Bottom line is that unless you plan on overturning Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, you will be stopping at the next DUI check point, like it or not.

Raging on here certainly does nothing.

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Wasn't insinuating you were butthurt personally - go back and read through those pages if you want some entertainment. Regardless, you "guys" have your opinion, and I have mine. That's what makes this country so great and dangerous at the same time. Good thing we're no democracy or we'd be in serious trouble.

RunninInGA said:

Wasn't insinuating you were butthurt personally - go back and read through those pages if you want some entertainment. Regardless, you "guys" have your opinion, and I have mine. That's what makes this country so great and dangerous at the same time. Good thing we're no democracy or we'd be in serious trouble.

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Agree.

Watching plasma cutter videos now. Thinking about pulling the trigger in May on a welder and plasma cutter at the same time.

I went through and read some. There was a lot of raging going on on both sides.

tbst said:

Take a deep breath. It is going to be OK.

AND NOTHING HAS EVER BEEN ACCOMPLISHED USING ALL CAPS. Not even reading through your post in all caps. I would have in 1999 but not in 2012.

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Sorry, that was me speaking slowly and clearly for you as obviously you we're unable to follow the last few pages of the thread.............. ;-)

United States Bill of Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also read some plato's republic(start here), hegel,Mills,Locke, Hobbes or Rousseau ,then we can talk about this some more.
basic break down, but not really the truth of it
Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau: Great Political Philosophers Lay Foundation for Today's Politics | Suite101.com

also so you know what the **** liberty even means.
Liberty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

read all of that then come back to me and tell me someone somewhere didn't **** up along the way and our rights are just as in tact as ever.

again monkeys before us.


again though that's fine by me, if you already know all of this and still simply think it's ok, cool, who the **** am i to judge another persons morals?
just don't be naive and think it's what the constitution is all about.
also remember it was meant to be a living document so we could protect ourselves from future governments not **** up the frame work.

tbst said:

Butthurt? No.

Annoyed that some idiot decided he was going to challenge the authorities in the most asinine way possible? Yes.

Bottom line is that unless you plan on overturning Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, you will be stopping at the next DUI check point, like it or not.

Raging on here certainly does nothing.

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not asinine, smart, saying anything could be incriminating.

yes, i agree with you at that point just answer the ****ing questions and get on with life, it's the principle of it all and the fact people think it's ok that enrages me. like really ****ing pisses me off and makes me loss faith in our people, i might as well be back living in Britain with all of this ***** **** i saw in this thread, i can't believe i'm coming off as a right wing hard core guy right now.....so typically not me.

theizzardking said:

not asinine, smart, saying anything could be incriminating.

yes, i agree with you at that point just answer the ****ing questions and get on with life, it's the principle of it all and the fact people think it's ok that enrages me. like really ****ing pisses me off and makes me loss faith in our people, i might as well be back living in Britain with all of this ***** **** i saw in this thread, i can't believe i'm coming off as a right wing hard core guy right now.....so typically not me.

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Coming off hard core right wing is an understatement!

Yes, it is his right to not say anything. But there are consequences for everything. Luckily this time he got off. However, if he had been pulled over and gotten a BAC or refused (in OH if you refuse automatic license suspension) it would be a pain in his ass. I think we can all agree to that.

That is where my problem comes in. I am all for laws and DUI checkpoints, however if you are innocent, you shouldn't still be punished. Like if you refuse to let an officer search your car, and they tow it, you have to pay for the tow even if they find nothing. That is horsecock in your mouth.

Look, I don't know the stats about DUI checkpoints and their effectiveness. However, I think that many of our rights have been taken away/are being in the process of being taken away. Which is why I believe that his time could be better used elsewhere. Now if he wants to go and do that at every DUI checkpoint and he feels he is making a difference, go do it.

Now, who is going to do this at the next DUI checkpoint? RIG, you should add a poll.

IF those things occurred, we would most likely be having a different discussion here altogether. The guy encountered 2 separate officers, one being a supervisor. Both exchanged multiple words and were close enough to observe whether or not he was impaired or intoxicated (based on the limited interaction a roadside checkpoint can accomplish short of further investigation with probable cause). It has been stated by both sides of the argument that the video tape played a very large role in the outcome of this - no video, most likely a different outcome altogether.

The effectiveness of these checkpoints was also discussed several times in the 15 odd pages of pointless banter you overlooked. As was statistics on fatality rates of incidents involving alcohol - quite staggering numbers. Police precincts, especially those in less populated (read staffed) areas, found much more effective, and legal, tactics. Studies have been completed and referenced indicating checkpoints were not effective for much other than spotting and issuing OTHER citations - where's the fairness in that?

My point in this is that I believe it is not fair to mask a fishing hole as a DUI checkpoint and have stated multiple times that it is the government's job to identify a specific action in progress or planning of such action and prosecute accordingly. Innocent until PROVEN guilty right?

tbst said:

Coming off hard core right wing is an understatement!


Now, who is going to do this at the next DUI checkpoint? RIG, you should add a poll.

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i'm not a **** head ,so ,i would answer all of their questions and get on with it, as messing with them makes matters even worse, your costing time and resources, i'm pissed my tax dollars are being wasted for this **** and even more pissed when 1 person eats up even more of the resources being a **** head about it.

My point is this shouldn't stand in the first place, and if you guys want to start a petition and do all of that I'm right behind you, as this IS without a doubt a violation of our rights, 5 people just decided it was important enough to make an exception to the constitution, THAT is not right, and i will speak and fight against it wherever logic dictates , doing what the guy in the video did was stupid, but i get his point.


as for the right wing thing, good quote
"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." Winston Churchill

i believe the most basic things should be provided for our society, nothing more, nothing less, food,clothing,water,shelter,medical,education. If you take from society without giving back you take what we give you, welfare should mean you eat,drink,live ,wear,heal, and learn what/where we give/tell you , if you don't like it get a job and contribute, unless you give to society you have no voice in what welfare is.
Walfare is not a live free program, it is a work reassignment program.
i don't care who you are or what your disability is, we can find a job for you.

are you blind? answer phones for government offices instead of the automated systems we got now
bad back? we got computers we can train you to operate!
got 10 kids? great, we'll give you 20 more a day and you can run a government funded day care for the other parents who work.

whatever , i'm not going to go on forever, point is no matter what is wrong with you, you can find a way to contribute if your not a piece of **** and just want to live for free off the work of others.

what i described above is socialism , just a well run socialist ideal.

i believe heavily in all of that, but even more so, i believe in personal accountability and the liberty of ones self, staunchly .

so basically in the current political spectrum of things i'm fubar'd...

really, i just want some logic and reason back into our society and not this bull**** knee jerk reactions to things and people being big pussies and not taking responsibility for their actions blaming the state and whatever on their drinking and driving,current way of life and blah blah blah. which in turn produces laws/procedures like this and brings us down as a society as a whole instead of just punishing the **** out of the ones breaking the laws.

Realistically if you refuse to answer the question in a DUI roadblock that -if articulated correctly- is reasonable "suspicion" and the demand will be made.

If you don't provide a breath sample you will be charged with refusal. Even if the grounds don't stand up in court you will have HUGE legal fees.

So you decide, be an Arse and pay the price or simply answer the question, don't delay everyone, and get on with your day.

My point in this is that I believe it is not fair to mask a fishing hole as a DUI checkpoint and have stated multiple times that it is the government's job to identify a specific action in progress or planning of such action and prosecute accordingly. Innocent until PROVEN guilty right?[/QUOTE]

By action in progress do you mean a criminal offense?

Carl_G said:

My point in this is that I believe it is not fair to mask a fishing hole as a DUI checkpoint and have stated multiple times that it is the government's job to identify a specific action in progress or planning of such action and prosecute accordingly. Innocent until PROVEN guilty right?

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By action in progress do you mean a criminal offense?[/QUOTE]

Yes

If you trade liberty for security, you deserve neither liberty or security.

In order to change things, we need people capable of critical thinking and discussion/debates are the only way to get where we need to go.

Problem is that nobody gives a sh1t and prefer to be told what to do, what to believe, what music is best, who to vote for....history has proven many times that divide and conquer philosophy is very effective against sheep. How else would the elite be able to control so many.

A little philosophy inserted below.

-the nails that stick out get hammered

-to be yourself, think for yourself

We have very limited freedoms left, but my philosophy is, you are either free or not!

When people start to realize that they are being taken for a ride, it's usually too late. Sometimes revolt leads to revolution and some things change, in vain...Our weapon is numbers, but numbers without proper understanding of how things really work is futile. The truth shall set you free?!

my state of the union address.*uck it.

gbc said:

If you trade liberty for security, you deserve neither liberty or security.

In order to change things, we need people capable of critical thinking and discussion/debates are the only way to get where we need to go.

Problem is that nobody gives a sh1t and prefer to be told what to do, what to believe, what music is best, who to vote for....history has proven many times that divide and conquer philosophy is very effective against sheep. How else would the elite be able to control so many.

A little philosophy inserted below.

-the nails that stick out get hammered

-to be yourself, think for yourself

We have very limited freedoms left, but my philosophy is, you are either free or not!

When people start to realize that they are being taken for a ride, it's usually too late. Sometimes revolt leads to revolution and some things change, in vain...Our weapon is numbers, but numbers without proper understanding of how things really work is futile. The truth shall set you free?!

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right, history points out time and time again about how easy it is to lull a public body into complacency,subjugate their rights, disarm them and finally conquer them.

Back in a time when people thought often and acted less because times where , well, just slower people devoted much time and thought into this.

for instance, people since 300 ad have been telling us how things should be:
Aristotle:
a) individuals have rights;

b) these rights are natural, not merely legal or conventional;

c) these rights forbid any sacrifice of the individual's interests to the interests of the community;

d) the state has an obligation to respect and protect these rights;

e) in order to secure these rights, the state's constitutional structure should be arranged so as to provide checks on governmental power;

f) legitimate political authority rests on the consent of the governed; and

g) a government that fails to respect the rights of its citizens may legitimately be overthrown.

This among other works is what our constitution is based on, do not let it be perverted.

Suspension of first amendment? And be sure to checkout that video at the end.

http://http://tinyurl.com/6wvjfxr

how i feel about posting in OT

some more food for thought about this whole idea of ****ing peoples rights for the good of public safety.


State Supreme Court: Local voters can’t ban red-light cameras | Seattle Times Newspaper

i love how these things can't even be gotten rid of even with the full use of democracy. If you don't think your rights are getting ****ed, think again.
after all your vote doesn't mean **** huh?


also please refer to my previous comment in this thread equating traffic lights to DUI check points, once you lose a right it is almost impossible to get it back.

also i'd like to say even though this doesn't necessarily set a precedent, (depends on the type of precedent your talking about) it's not going to stop it from being cited and used for justification of a unjust action , like our very own lawyer here did, the supreme court knew it was unconstitutional to begin with but allowed it anyways. the citing of that case will be used over and over again unconstitutional or not. it's just how the game is played.
this is the monkey reference i keep making. 5 monkeys behind a bench decide it's ok and the other 300 million just go along with it repeating the lie again and again.

Originally Posted by 4ganger View Post
Ok just to chime in... I'm a licensed attorney. This is settled law, and I mean settled by the US Supreme Ct. DUI administrative checkpoint are not a violation of your 5th amendment rights. Period.

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Chief Justice Rehnquist began his majority opinion by admitting that DUI sobriety checkpoints do, in fact, constitute a "seizure" within the language of the Fourth Amendment. In other words, yes, it appears to be a blatant violation of the Constitution. However, he continued, it's only a little one, and something has to be done about the "carnage" on the highways caused by drunk drivers. The "minimal intrusion on individual liberties," Rehnquist wrote, must be "weighed" against the need for -- and effectiveness of -- DUI roadblocks. In other words, the ends justify the means.

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the article only mentions 1-2 cities i believe but this was voted down by at least 5 cities i have heard of on the radio today.

what happens when the people can no longer even vote to effect change and make their state or country the way they want it?
this is all over money as usual and the citizens rights have no weight.

if i get a pm on this post i will start a thread on this subject alone if you guys feel like it deserves it.

Gotta love the 'settled law' no more conversation about it approach to things.
Supreme Court has a long history of reversing itself. Anybody recall the rulings related to slavery or Indians or property rights ? If Obama wins again (likely) we are going to eventually get some interesting reversals as the make up of the Supremes changes.

Settled or not, things are subject to change, but I suppose not soon enough to matter much to those of us alive today.

Atlanta_man said:

Gotta love the 'settled law' no more conversation about it approach to things.
Supreme Court has a long history of reversing itself. Anybody recall the rulings related to slavery or Indians or property rights ? If Obama wins again (likely) we are going to eventually get some interesting reversals as the make up of the Supremes changes.

Settled or not, things are subject to change, but I suppose not soon enough to matter much to those of us alive today.

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yeah, but with me being 30, i have much respect for my grand parents who fought against slavery and segregation, we won't be remembered as what we do as individuals but as what we do as a generation, Germany is a great example, not to start goodwins law again, but seriously, not all Germans of that era were nazi's supporters, they were just by-standers to the tragedy of their generation, but judged no less harshly by history as the rest.a silent voice against injustice is no voice at all.

let's hope that is not the case for us and our current trends, lets hope we do not need to fall to as a low before we realize the path we are on.
let's hope we can swap out some judges with someone who is good and just. not someone who is going to garner and vie for political attention or favour.

all of that said, why can't we get some grass roots going on? everyone thinks both parties are **** anyways,i mean really do you guys like your party? or are you mostly voting for them because you hate the other guy less? And the most viable grass roots party is basically the OWS of politics (tea baggers) i.e. good ideas in theory, but not organized enough, too radicalized on their core principles ,much like current parties, and just a general sense of not being able to get the job done.

i just hope people smarten up and don't let this sort of thing happen in the first place, as now it'll probably be a few years before we can even get to the point of having a real discussion about removing these ****ing cameras .:spider:

edit: also thanks for putting a positive spin on things, with all of my ranting and raving it's refreshing to have a bit of light in here.