Depression - Page 6 - Toyota 4Runner Forum

Thai · 11-25-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CXS

With my years of experience with the medical professions

What did you do? What experience are we talking about? I can tell you of many medical physicians that are truly the FINAL WORD in their profession. Dr. Amen is not one of them.

CXS · 11-25-2013, 06:37 PM

I said "with the medical profession" not in the medical profession. I've been strictly a consumer and caretaker. I spent too much time caring for an aging parent not too learn a lot about the way medicine is practiced to say nothing about my own health issues and how lousy some doctors are...

As far as Dr. Amen is concerned I have no opinion, no experience and thus cannot/will not make any judgement which also means I didn't read your post about him.

Thai · 11-25-2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CXS

I said "with the medical profession" not in the medical profession. I've been strictly a consumer and caretaker. I spent too much time caring for an aging parent not too learn a lot about the way medicine is practiced to say nothing about my own health issues and how lousy some doctors are...

As far as Dr. Amen is concerned I have no opinion, no experience and thus cannot/will not make any judgement which also means I didn't read your post about him.

Oh, that is what you mean by YEARS OF EXPERIENCE with the medical profession...you're the son of your parents visiting a doctor's office. Ok...that is about as useful as poop-flavored lollipop!

You have no opinion, but it seems like you want to suppress mine, despite me giving valid evidence...just because you don't agree with my opinion (backed by the WHOLE medical community!). Or is it because you don't like me from our past disagreements? I hope the former...but either way, you're showing your personal bias. You claim to not read my post because it is simple common sense.

CXS · 11-25-2013, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

Oh, that is what you mean by YEARS OF EXPERIENCE with the medical profession...you're the son of your parents visiting a doctor's office. Ok...that is about as useful as poop-flavored lollipop!.

Not quite son. I'm not some 10 year old sitting in the Dr's office with mommy and daddy. My parents are both dead, we'll talk again after you spend years with your parents caring for them as they slowly die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

You have no opinion, but it seems like you want to suppress mine, despite me giving valid evidence...just because you don't agree with my opinion (backed by the WHOLE medical community!). Or is it because you don't like me from our past disagreements? I hope the former...but either way, you're showing your personal bias. You claim to not read my post because it is simple common sense.

I simply saw no need for you to attack and attempt to discredit a positive experience that 2 members had.

I don't recall past disagreements but I imagine you have had more than your share judging from these posts alone. Your responses here reinforce my original post suggesting this wasn't the place for your comments.

You need to grow up Thai.

Thai · 11-25-2013, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CXS

I simply saw no need for you to attack and attempt to discredit a positive experience that 2 members had.

I did not discredit them. They had a positive experience with AMEN Clinic. Fine. But, that does not mean that we should keep quiet, right? Evidence suggest that AMEN Clinic is not mainstream medicine and lacks data to support its use of SPECT scan. Simple. I present well-known effects of radiation (long term). I present evidence that discredits some of AMEN claims. Simple. How you come to your conclusion is beyond me? I suggest that you stop being so damn bias...and look at the evidence (or lack of) at hand.

Why is this not the place to post legitimate counter evidence to what the OP was seriously considering????

the great him · 11-25-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

Oh, that is what you mean by YEARS OF EXPERIENCE with the medical profession...you're the son of your parents visiting a doctor's office. Ok...that is about as useful as poop-flavored lollipop!

You have no opinion, but it seems like you want to suppress mine, despite me giving valid evidence...just because you don't agree with my opinion (backed by the WHOLE medical community!). Or is it because you don't like me from our past disagreements? I hope the former...but either way, you're showing your personal bias. You claim to not read my post because it is simple common sense.

and exactly what makes you an expert on so many subjects, you seam to be a SME on just about everything... and you continually attack other people and their beliefs and experiences, what expertise do you have to back the statements you have made? you seam to be on a war-path here, and for what? you are blasting anyone who steps in your way... no infact your opinions are not backed by the whole medical community and your statements about the Amen clinic being some off kilter psych center who caters to cash is just BS and shows just how uneducated you are especially in this field... my parents didnt have a ton of cash, never had, never will, infact we grew up in what would be considered poverty by US standards, combined income well below $40k a year(yes my mother is a LCSW who was also 1 class short of a RN degree but switched at the last moment, she has her masters degree and made less than $40k a year. it was the going pay for MSWs/LCSWs at the time), and living in the napa valley -well you do the math if your so smart... basically our insurance covered the Amen clinics care, and a lot of insurance company's do so i dont know where your getting your info pal but its wrong, and thats a FACT.

now when i was in college, i was majoring is psych, but i spent more time goofing off and not applying myself(part of my ADD) so i dropped out before i failed out. i was failing out not because i wasnt learning, but because i wasnt doing, i was not doing the home work, and writing the papers ect, but all my professors kept coming to me and asking "why", "why"? why wouldnt i just do the work, why arent you applying yourself ect, i got great marks for in class participation and i was acing tests, but yeah. so i picked up on a few things when it came to the brain and how it works, it fascinates me. i have several friends who are either psychologists and psychiatrist, as well as some that are therapists in various working rolls. they all have different opinions on things and theorys when it comes to meds ect. none of them have been to the Amen clinic all but one is familiar with it, but not one has attacked it as you have and blasted its concepts...

one reason that the Amen clinic has not gone main stream is pharmaceuticals, they dont want to be pushed or backed by any of them for any reason, they believe in patient care and that patient care should be number 1 not profits and kick backs. pharmaceutical companys would love to shut them down because they do not believe in medicating the problem, they believe in solving and fixing the problem... and fixing something does not yield profits.

so before you go bashing something you obviously know nothing about how about you check yourself at the door lest you look like a fool -its better to be thought of as a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt

the great him · 11-25-2013, 08:26 PM

anyone can presents "facts" about anything to suite their needs or goals... its all about who backs the research, and what the agenda is or was...

MtnT4R · 11-25-2013, 08:35 PM

Sorry if I missed a post about the dangers of antidepressants, but I've researched enough to spend most of my time trying to convince people in my life to get off of synthetic SSRI medication. I am fully convinced that this stuff is making things far worse, and would encourage you all to read a little more from varying sources to make up your own mind. This is a fairly comprehensive article, and frankly, the information it contains is pretty scary.

Psychiatric Drugs: Chemical Warfare on Humans - interview with Robert Whitaker

BrianSD_42 · 11-25-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

one reason that the Amen clinic has not gone main stream is pharmaceuticals, they dont want to be pushed or backed by any of them for any reason, they believe in patient care and that patient care should be number 1 not profits and kick backs. pharmaceutical companys would love to shut them down because they do not believe in medicating the problem, they believe in solving and fixing the problem... and fixing something does not yield profits.

Ahhhh what? I thought that the AMEX clinic prescribes medication the same as any other PHYSC. They just claim to know what specific medication is best for you based on the brain scan.

The link Thai posted is definitely worth a look ---> http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...your-mind.html

Here's a snippet ....

Quote:

While I was intrigued by my experience with Amen, other New Yorkers—people with actual psychiatry degrees—aren’t rolling out the red carpet.

“I winced when I heard the news that he was opening a clinic in New York,” says Dr. Jeffrey Lieberman, the president of the American Psychiatric Association and psychiatrist in chief at Columbia University Medical Center. “Unsuspecting people could fall prey to this. This guy is a pretty slick operator—he leaves a patina of science into his talking points.”

Lieberman and many of his peers say there’s simply no proof that the blood-flow activity SPECT tracks can be useful for anything beyond identifying basic medical conditions. Mark Madsen, a professor of nuclear medicine at the University of Iowa, says SPECT scans can show how a brain works after epileptic seizures and strokes and can identify recurrent brain tumors more precisely than an MRI or a CT scan. “In terms of today’s technology, it’s a very unsophisticated mode of imaging,” says Lieberman. “It’s only useful for gross pathological lesions.”

Quote:

Psychiatrists say there’s no proof that the activity Amen is measuring says much when it comes to distinguishing between natural psychiatric variations between people, even combined with questionnaires and assessments. “There’s no evidence at all to support it,” says Lieberman, “and beyond that, anyone who is currently trying to use neuroimaging technologies to diagnose or characterize mental disorders would not use SPECT.”

To treat SPECT scans as an effective diagnostic tool, says Dr. Paul Appelbaum, the director of the Division of Law, Ethics, and Psychiatry at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, “we would need to be able to say that, on the basis of the scan, we could reliably distinguish individual patients’ conditions from what is normal and from other psychiatric conditions.”

Quote:

Dr. Fredric Busch, a psychiatrist in private practice in New York City, says the patients Amen sees often do get better, but that’s because after the scans and consultations, Amen will prescribe what any other psychiatrist might: a better diet, more exercise, and possibly a new or different supplement or medication, depending on the case. “The main thing that ends up happening is that his patients spend money and get exposure to radiation that they don’t necessarily need,” Busch says, “but the net effect is the same.”

BrianSD_42 · 11-25-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

I simply saw no need for you to attack and attempt to discredit a positive experience that 2 members had.

I don't think the intent was to attack those members who had a positive experience.

The counter argument, or at least the view of skeptics like me is that anyone considering this should read all the "other" points of view out there. Some of them will be negative sure.

If the head of the APA denounces the clinic as a place that pushes junk science for profit (and he does), well that is really concerning.

02SE · 11-25-2013, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the kid

and exactly what makes you an expert on so many subjects,

I wouldn't presume to speak for Thai, but he already stated what his perspective is on this subject, in his first post in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

I am not a neuropsychiatrist, not a neurologist, and not a radiologist. But, i am in the medical field and practice evidence-based medicine (at least to the best of my ability).

SPECT scans are good for CNS (brain/neuro system) tumors, lymphoma, neuroblastoma, and seizures. Are there rare indications for other stuff? Maybe, but standard of care in using SPECT is for these indications.

Are there radiation concerns due to SPECT? Yes. How much? Probably close to a CT scan? Again, i am no expert in how much radiation you are exposed to.

BlackWorksInc, if you're elderly, then yeah, knock yourself out with these scans! Go for a scan buffet! My radialogist brother would appreciate your business!

However, if you're young, then i would encourage you to step back and consider the risks. Remember, in all likelihood (if you're young), this SPECT scan won't be your last x-ray in your life. For example, a person who gets a SPECT at age 25. 5 years later, he gets into a motor vehicle accident and gets a full body CT Scan (per ER protocol). More radiation. Later in life, this person broke a few bones...more x-rays...or develop a cough and need a chest x-ray. And then a few years later, this person needs some other x-rays done. You get my point. Radiation adds up in your body over your life.

I have yelled at frequent (dumb) ER patients about telling the truth when they visit or else they get x-ray'ed repeatedly. Over time, they will pay for it with their health/life. I have personally known more than a few of these type of patients who develop cancers (note: plural) as they get older. (Yes, i have been practicing medicine for a while.) Sure, these cancers could be from bad luck, genetics, or radiation exposure...or a little of all three.

Any young patient of mine will get the bare minimum radiation exposure...for their sake. I avoid CT scans unless they failed to respond to initial therapy or their symptoms are complex. And i explain the reason why i am going conservative on them. On elderly folks, i am more open because they will not live long enough to experience the potential harm from radiation.

You decide. Don't read any rinky-dink internet blog/profile/website. Ask a licensed medical person in the field who is not linked to the business that you are interested in. Again, i don't expect you to listen to me...see my disclaimer above...but FOR YOUR SAKE, be careful of what you read on the internet/forum/etc..

I cannot help you with your depression (thus, no comment until now) because it is way above my medical knowledge. But, GOOD LUCK and God speed in getting it worked out.

Happy Turkey Day next week with your father.

EDIT: one more thing...if you eat a balanced diet, then you probably do NOT need a multi-vitamin. I would get a Vit-D level checked because that is one vitamin that is a good one to take IF you are deficient (easy to check at any clinic via blood test).

the great him · 11-25-2013, 08:56 PM

most doctor and or psychs are backed by at least one or more pharmaceutical companys... they will push their drug and give the Md "kick backs" from the sale based on volume of the drug... im not saying all but a lot do this. Amen refused to sign with any of these companys or work with any docs that practice this way... that does not mean that the Amen clinic will not use/prescribe medications from companies that do business this way, but they will not push them... they will use what they feel biased on their research and experience is best for that specific issue/patient...

i have heard enough about what thai thinks and feels to not care about the links he posts, im not going to waste my time with someone who clearly is just regurgitating things he reads online... again anyone can can make a study or test that backs anything they want, and anyone can create findings to support theorys... now weather or not those are factual or have legitimate basses is another thing.

depression is not a life long issue, it can be treated, and treated many ways too. sometimes meds are needed, sometimes they are not, but again in my experience putting someone on life long meds or long periods of meds to help "stabilize" them is a sign of not knowing the issue, and or not knowing how to treat the issue. meds change people, and with all change, it can go to far. its a delicate balance and it needs to be balanced from falling one or the other. going too far one way is just as bad as being too far on the other side.

again their is no profit in fixing something, treating it however is where the profit is.

CXS · 11-25-2013, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

I am not a neuropsychiatrist, not a neurologist, and not a radiologist. But, i am in the medical field and practice evidence-based medicine (at least to the best of my ability).

~snip~

I have yelled at frequent (dumb) ER patients about telling the truth when they visit or else they get x-ray'ed repeatedly.

Hey Thai, I'm curious about what your job is and in what setting you work that you yell at ER patients.

dapslappy · 11-25-2013, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thai

I have yelled at frequent (dumb) ER patients

This is the behavior of a bully. You are a bully. You revel in opportunities to publicly humiliate those you deem vulnerable or ignorant, ignorant as in less knowledgeable. Not stupid but vulnerable and ignorant, like a patient in the Emergency Room. This is the unprofessional behavior of an insecure, petty, small minded, defensive, dismissive, egocentric with the impulse control of a spoiled 7 year old. A 7 year old who is, by definition, incapable of engaging in the reasonable discourse of a mature adult.

Dark Lord · 11-26-2013, 12:05 AM

You are courageous for reaching out like this. Mental illness is nothing to joke about, and severe clinical depression is a mental illness that ranks up there with schizophrenia. It's amazing how unaware people are of how serious these illnesses are. I just took a week long class about crisis intervention, and the affects of mental disorders... pretty serious stuff man. I am by no means an expert.

I'm going to start by saying I cannot even begin to understand what you are experiencing. I venture to say I have experienced depression at times, and recently more anxiety than anything else. Nothing I have experienced could be anything considered severe, and I partly believe that's due to my state of mind.

I'm not sure if I'm the right person to give advice about life since I have unusual and extreme views, but I will see if we can connect. To give a quick background about myself, I served in the military, and graduated college a few years ago. When I was in college I experienced depression at times, mainly due to women, but I got over it eventually and moved on. I think that's partially because of my "never quit" mentality that has been ingrained in me by the Marine Corps.

I don't believe any sort of deities exist. I don't completely disregard the possibility of a higher being existing due to multiple dimensions, but the theory of a creator that watches over everyone just seems completely bogus to me. I personally don't believe higher beings exist either, but I don't deny the possibility of their existence. The reason I'm bringing this up is to tie into what I'm going to discuss next, life and death. I'd be lying if I said I didn't think about dying very often. Although I'm an optimist in life, I don't have very optimistic views on what death is like. I have a very plain and bland view on it.

At this point it almost seems to me that life is pointless. So I ask myself, why not just end it now? The number one question in everyone's life is what happens when you die? Some people claim they know what happens when they die based on a book they've read or for whatever reason, but nobody is truly 100% sure. If I'm so curious to find the answer, why not just do it? I'll tell you why. Because everyone dies eventually, so you may as well enjoy life. Even if life isn't enjoyable, you must be patient, and try to make the best of it. That's why I'm an optimist. I am always willing to look at the brighter side of things (there is almost never a brighter side to something). Instead of allowing life to be pointless, make a point to it.

I don't really know what else to say, but that's how I think.

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