Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc

So far all I've seen with BSM is an unreliable system that needs work before it's used in autonomous vehicles, at best it's a great way to distract people when their driving. LDA is also useless most of the time (that has more to do with how lovely American roads are really, when the lines are barely there or snow covers them LDA is useless, but then again how blind do you have to be to not fit the vehicle between the lanes?), but at least it's not as finicky and requires repairs like BSM, so far. Pre-Collision Detection... well assuming the system is calibrated properly (not something you'd be able to tell until you need it because of how it's calibrated and that's it's own scary thing) it's a nice feature assuming it doesn't trip up and incorrectly decide you need to brake when you don't and causing an accident (haven't heard of that happening yet, but it's not outside of possible failure modes for these systems due to how they operate, but then again Toyota already recalled PCS once already).

But you know what I see? People on their phones, not paying attention to the road. People who can't adjust their mirrors or use them properly, who don't look when they change lanes, who don't signal, and so on. Also people who have all the fancy bells and whistles and their cars are more banged up and dented than a damn junkyard wrecker at a demo derby. Oh wasn't there that twit of a kid tweeting her car crash when she killed her sister (intoxicated, underage, not educated as a driver properly, also not making sure her passengers were buckled, and oh yeah let's not forget livestreaming while they were driving, sounds like the average driver to me)? Again, you might be a nice old lady driving, but the majority of drivers are incompetent and unsafe. Don't give me BS that there aren't a large number of twit drivers, we both lived/live in the Bay Area where the average driver intelligence/awareness makes a Trump supporter look like a genius.

All this new technology just encourages them to be lazier and not bother paying attention to the road and their vehicle. That being said, the technology is quickly rolling into autonomous cars, so my only real problem with it besides it being a stopgap to give false security to already bad drivers (because it's not the gadgets that make them bad driver's it's their lack of education and in some cases laziness/disregard for responsibility) until they come out with self-driving vehicles is how unreliable, easy to knock out of whack, and expensive it is to fix when it does break.

The failure rates on the new systems is high enough that I am curious how many people are going to be loving them when they need to drop $1k for a milimeter radar module plus labor and calibration to keep their BSM working? Or $700+ for a BSM equipped mirror?

I don't much like this "grey area" crap, either go full autonomous or actually invest in good driver education for everyone. I'd be more forgiving towards useless stuff like BSM, LDA, and such IF it were optional on every vehicle; not driving the price of a barely worth $10k plasticky, creaky, cheapo mess of a Corolla to near $20k base price because of it.

As for the minivan? Hey, we went over this before. It's a good road trip car for a family or even a couple. I'd rock a Sienna if had use for it, my family's minivan was great for road trips when I was younger.



Well, not quite what I'm saying. Rather what I'm getting at is if you're looking at an LC200, aside from the benefits you get off-roading in that platform, there isn't much else going for that vehicle vs. other "luxury" large vehicles. There are better vehicles ranging from a Minivan to those bloated extra-large unibody CUVs. The only real difference the LC200 has over say a Mercedes ML class is that it's a more capable and reliable vehicle as an off-roader, but the ML trounces it as a city-cruiser/family wagon. Not to mention if you're more interested in creature comforts and feeling like a silicon valley executive, your $90k is better spent on the Mercedes than the Toyota in regards to features per dollar.

Originally Posted by wadle5

But Thai don't you have a minivan and were claiming it as being the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Thai

Damn you write a lot!!! Summarize your thoughts!!!

Just a few quickies. Autonomous driving will likely NOT use those same BSM sensors found in current cars. Autonomous driving involves LIDAR, cameras in every orifices around the car, and sensors with far more range capability.

Pre-Collision is like your backup to your eyeballs. Not everyone is as good of a driver as you...cough***BS***cough.

OMG, people on their phones!!!! Oh and those folks only started using that shit within the past 6 months!!! Phones did not exist 5-10 yrs ago! Did you know that people only recently started to drink AND drive?!!! OMG!!!

The incompetent driver is a new thing...must be a 2017 thing! Seriously!!

Yeah, you see sonny, back in my days in the 1980s, there was no accidents. There was nothing broken. People lived till 120 years of age. You youngsters don’t know nothing!!

You may want to take a stroll over to IIHS or NHTSA and read up on rates of accidents and injuries that have gone down with these new (awful!!) technologies!!

But, nah, why read up on facts when you have pre-conceived ignorant rants from folks like you.

Yeah, lets go FULL AUTONOMOUS even when technology is not there yet!! Good idea!!

Look, here are the facts...you do NOT off-road anymore. Yet, you criticize everyone else who owns a 4x4 and don’t take it off-road often...and that they need to buy a minivan instead! YET, you are the exception to the rule that you impose on everyone else!

Minivan for a COUPLE???? As much as i love my minivan, that just made me choke on water in laughing so hard!

Here’s a marvel idea...why don’t you let other people spend their money how they see fit to their lifestyle, needs, etc.? You clearly don’t follow your own rules.

Originally Posted by Thai

Which do you think affects reliability and durability? Your lift or BSM?

Which do you think may cause loss of life in a crash? Your Shrockswork bumper or Pre-Collision?

Which do you think may cause a rollover? Your lift or VSC?

Not so long ago, a few argued that VSC will create more idiotic drivers and encourage them to go faster resulting in more crashes! Has that happened? No.

Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc

-That's exactly why I am fine with "BSM" (because it won't be Blind Spot Monitoring in an autonomous vehicle, it'll be a software package utilizing existing LIDAR and other tech) in self-driving cars. The techology packages those vehicles will be using are far more robust and redundant by design. Do I need to make this clearer for you?

-I don't have a problem with PCS systems, it's just that they are all relatively calibrated (meaning someone could easily **** up calibration on them like they did on the Avalons) and you can't actually "check" the calibration unless you want to try and crash a customer's car into a wall to make sure it activates because of how the system is designed and coded. It's not something that instills a lot of confidence in the system when you know how sensitive those calibrations can be and how easy a factory worker or tech can mess them up and not having a reliable way to double-check them just makes me feel uneasy. The technology itself is nice though.

-Incompetent drivers are nothing new, drinking and driving is not new, the degradation of the driving education system is relatively new (last 20 yrs or so), the increase of people seeing cars as glorified "toys" and their disregard for operating multi-ton death wagons has only gotten worse the more distractions we give people. The only thing we've managed to do is to increase survivability of people and honestly? That's a topic for another chat, suffice to say that nature has a balance that we may be mucking with for the detriment of humanity's genetic pool. But bottom line, all this technology makes a cheap car ridiculously expensive and a bad driver no better at not getting in an accident.

-Did I say anything about wanting self-driving cars NOW? No, I said that the stopgap and "grey area" we're in as the technology works it's way to the end-goal of self-driving cars is not entirely a good thing over-all. I'd much rather all these gadgets and crap be entirely optional on all vehicles (that means you can buy a car without BSM, LDA, PCS, ect.) on all models/trims. OR you just wait until self-driving tech is a thing. It's an extreme point of view but it's mine, I work on enough of this shit to see it's issues and that it's better suited for self-driving applications more than human driven ones; though it'll be a while for that.

I also made it clear that if the guy is looking to buy a Volvo XC90, he'd probably be better off with a nicer CUV or minivan or something else that matches a XC90. Much in the way that I assume your brother is as much a techie obsessed shill like you and that instead of throwing $90k on "old tech" he should get a nice vehicle that have loads of goodies in it.

As for you in particular? You just enjoy picking fights and being generally a condescending prick when people don't bow down to your ideals and opinions (presented as unerrable facts), I'm just okay with rolling in the mud with you most of the time because I'm a sad ****ing sack of shit and a waste of human genetic code who wonders why he doesn't just put a bullet in his head most days. So thanks for giving my life enough purpose to just finish the bottle and not the magazine!

Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc

Reliability- Both, you did not specific which aspect of reliability you meant (mechanical or electrical) therefore they both fall equally under the blanket.

Cause loss of life- Both, PCS has the potential to engage erroneously and cause pile-ups due to the random application of brakes and the person behind you plowing into you (unlikely but possible). A full metal bumper has the possibility of increasing damage in an accident against some vehicles, though it could potentially protect you against death as well. So due to your vague criteria... again both.

Cause a rollover- Both again, due to your vague (as always) attempts to generalize. VCS is unstable in slippy/extreme conditions such as Ice and can erratically engage and cause you to lose control more so than without (assuming you have a mild understanding of how to operate your vehicle). A lift raises CoG (Center of Gravity) and this can also induce the possibility of a rollover.

As for the VSC causing more idiotic drivers? Debatable. Causing more spinouts and loss of control in the winter-time? Yeah, that's entirely believable and happens a lot.

If you're going to be a troll or at least try to seem like your the more intelligent one, be more specific in your trolling. Because then I wouldn't have to be a dick to you.

(The CORRECT questions you were looking for you support your argument, instead of your usual vague/baiting drivel)

Which will affect the drivability of your vehicle?

Which has a higher likelyhood of increasing the risk of a fatality in a collision?

Which has the likelyhood of causing a higher risk of rollover?

Originally Posted by Thai

Ahhh, now all of a sudden, you know about LIDAR? LOL. Glad to have taught you something.

PCS...isn’t that still a backup system to the human response? Has PCS saved lives? YES. Has it saved lives because people are more idiotic? No. A dumbass will always find a way do bad. A dumbass can over-ride a self-driving car (such as when drunk). Self-driving is not the end all answer to accidents.

BTW, as of now, most self-driving cars in the near future will require driver to put hands on steering wheel. So, good or bad, humans are still in play.

What do you know about my brother? I gave my opinions above, not his. Why the assumptions? That’s just being a dumbass.

Picking fights? Aren’t you the one who keeps on harping the minivan rule...yet don’t follow it? Aren’t you the one who is condescending on anyone who owns a 4x4 and not take it off-road everyday? YET, you admitted that you no longer off-road yourself!

No, just stating facts from your own admissions in past and from IIHS/NHTSA.

I am glad that you feel better talking to me...but you may want to seek professional help or your nearest emergency room. Seriously. You need help.

Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc

I never said it was a "rule" I just always maintained I feel that people who want a BoF 4WD because they want to feel "Safe" or "Be able to handle that gravel road to grandma's" are better suited for something like a CUV or minivan. It's a strongly held opinion that I have, but by no means a "rule" like you seem to think.

As for your brother? Well I have only you to deal with on a regular basis so I was making the assumption you two were alike. But if you're not that's great news!

PCS may be a "back-up" system, but humans are stupid things. People will assume that it's more than that, same as the idiots in the Tesla marketing department and the owners who were crashing because they didn't have their hands on the steering wheel in autopilot mode (even though it specifically said not to). That's the part your brain seems to have trouble with and that's ok, you just can't comprehend that because the sign says "stop" that not everyone will actually stop, or even bother reading or noticing the sign.

Again, PCS is good live-saving/damage-reducing technology. It's just the calibration side of it that makes me uneasy, not enough to say recall it all and dump it in the scrap bin (where as I feel more like that for BSM), but enough that I wonder how much of it is going to be an issue going forward as we've already seen issues with it.

See the difference between me and you? I'm fine with being a shitty human being and a waste of space; I'll survive, it's what I do best. You on the otherhand, just have to be better than everyone else... that sounds like a sad existence to me, but hey what do I know? I'm just a depressed drunk.

Post Note-

I'm well aware of LIDAR systems as well as the self-driving tech used in thoe vehicles. But they have little bearing on BSM tech in human-operated vehicles as those use MM-Wave tech. Now if we were talking smart-cruise control, LIDAR might have slipped in.

Originally Posted by lucky7

Wait, the auto manufacturers are in the weeds again. There will be deals.

I don't like all that electronic crap at all. And yes it does make people worse drivers - technology has that effect. Young kids don't know the difference between understeer vs oversteer, or even what they mean. Perhaps actually learning how to drive isn't a skill we'll need too much longer into the future, but it's an example.

The XC90 has always been a good looking vehicle, and Jeremy Clarkson certainly helped to put the vehicle on my radar, but the newest version looks stunning. Shame there's a lot of kinks to iron out. Is Volvo still owned by Tata?

Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc

Volvo has just been making some stunning designs as of late, they really have been getting the "image" of the old boxy safety wagon out of people's minds.

Last I checked they are still owned by Tata, which is why I'm not entirely surprised about the teething pains. I think they're still relatively good cars, but as the OP said it may be best to wait a year or two for them to work it the "bugs"

Originally Posted by lucky7

Wait, the auto manufacturers are in the weeds again. There will be deals.

I don't like all that electronic crap at all. And yes it does make people worse drivers - technology has that effect. Young kids don't know the difference between understeer vs oversteer, or even what they mean. Perhaps actually learning how to drive isn't a skill we'll need too much longer into the future, but it's an example.

The XC90 has always been a good looking vehicle, and Jeremy Clarkson certainly helped to put the vehicle on my radar, but the newest version looks stunning. Shame there's a lot of kinks to iron out. Is Volvo still owned by Tata?