User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 05-05-2007, 08:48 PM #16
TechWrench's Avatar
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
TechWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by a77boy
Mechanical relay as far as I know. I managed to take apart the relay next to it, EFI i think. It is a little different, but It is definetly mechanical. The magnetic clutch relay should be the same. As stated before, I simply banged it on my counter top and it has been working for two months. :-)
I remember that from your earlier post, so I suspected it was a mechanical relay, but wasn't sure. Banging a solid state relay shouldn't 'help' it at all. I'll have to look at the contacts when I operate on mine. I suspect they will either have arc deposits which are increasing the resistance across them to the point that they won't activate the mag clutch, or they are welded shut and won't open.
__________________
I can Explain it to you, I can't Understand it for you.
'03 Limited V8, Dark Blue, 265/70R16 Blizzak DM-V1's on '02 OEM alloys (winter), OEM Cig lighter module, Anti-chipmunk mod for fresh air intake, Draw Tite hitch upgrade, Equalizer WD system, '91 Coachmen Catalina 260FK, '89 Grumman GSS w/35HP Force O/B, 8' Snowbear utility trailer, 2012 Polaris 500HO LE in Camo, 7 x 14 TWF Landscape trailer w/2 ramps.
TechWrench is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-05-2007, 08:56 PM #17
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
The one relay that I was able to open was no problem, I simply had to pry it open with a small screwdriver. The MGNT CLTCH relay is different, it is completely sealed with some sort of epoxy type substance. Good luck on opening that one. Let me know if you can.
a77boy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 08:43 AM #18
greasefingers's Avatar
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
greasefingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
Relays electrically isolate the control circuit (low current) from the circuit being controlled (the a/c compressor clutch, which is higher current).

My guess is that the relay was not sized correctly for the A/C compressor clutch. But I would think that a fuse would blow before the relay crapping out?

The control side of the relay could also be failing? Most bosch relays need 8 volts to energize the coil (which pulls the contacts) and the Drop-out voltage is usually around 1 to 5 volts. So maybe the coil is not sized correctly
__________________
2003 4x4 Sport 4runner V8, Scion HU w 4 upgraded speakers, Hella horns, MapLight Mod, de-badged 85 k + miles
1994 Jeep GC with 202,500 miles
1990 Corolla 168,000 miles
1994 Volvo 850 165,000 miles
2003 Camry 12,500 miles
greasefingers is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 08:55 AM #19
greasefingers's Avatar
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
greasefingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
Looking at the relay; it is very very small. Almost too small for a coil? Maybe you are correct, TechWrench, about the solid state type being used. Below is a picture of a typical found in my other two vehicles (not the Toy)
__________________
2003 4x4 Sport 4runner V8, Scion HU w 4 upgraded speakers, Hella horns, MapLight Mod, de-badged 85 k + miles
1994 Jeep GC with 202,500 miles
1990 Corolla 168,000 miles
1994 Volvo 850 165,000 miles
2003 Camry 12,500 miles
greasefingers is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 12:04 PM #20
TechWrench's Avatar
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
TechWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by greasefingers
Looking at the relay; it is very very small. Almost too small for a coil? Maybe you are correct, TechWrench, about the solid state type being used. Below is a picture of a typical found in my other two vehicles (not the Toy)
The MG CLT relay we are discussing only has a 4 prong base. Therefore, it can only have one set of contacts. (two prongs for the controlled circuit, and two for the coil. They are drawn, in the prints, with the contacts in the normally open position, which is the de-energized state. So, the contacts should close when the coil is energized. If the base of the relay is epoxy sealed, that tends to make me think it is a solid state relay. The prints indicate it is a 12 vdc coil, and a ground is provided by the ECM to activate the relay coil. From my experience with relays at work, mechanical relays 'usually' work, or they don't. When they fail, it is usually a mechanical failure. SSRs on the other hand can fail intermittantly for a while before they quit completely. I should receive the replacement relay later this week, and one way or another, I WILL get the cover off that relay to see which type it is.
__________________
I can Explain it to you, I can't Understand it for you.
'03 Limited V8, Dark Blue, 265/70R16 Blizzak DM-V1's on '02 OEM alloys (winter), OEM Cig lighter module, Anti-chipmunk mod for fresh air intake, Draw Tite hitch upgrade, Equalizer WD system, '91 Coachmen Catalina 260FK, '89 Grumman GSS w/35HP Force O/B, 8' Snowbear utility trailer, 2012 Polaris 500HO LE in Camo, 7 x 14 TWF Landscape trailer w/2 ramps.
TechWrench is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 01:48 PM #21
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
haha,, sweet!!!! I am very interested to see what the hells in there!! Keep us posted (uhh excuse the pun)
a77boy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-08-2007, 09:57 AM #22
TechWrench's Avatar
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
TechWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
Update; Patrznet just notified me that this relay is on national backorder, and will not be available for at least one month.

I tried the local Toyota dealer, they want $70.64, and it will take 2/3 days to get it.

Fortunately, the relay I swiped from the fog lights is working, so I guess I will be waiting a while for the new one.
__________________
I can Explain it to you, I can't Understand it for you.
'03 Limited V8, Dark Blue, 265/70R16 Blizzak DM-V1's on '02 OEM alloys (winter), OEM Cig lighter module, Anti-chipmunk mod for fresh air intake, Draw Tite hitch upgrade, Equalizer WD system, '91 Coachmen Catalina 260FK, '89 Grumman GSS w/35HP Force O/B, 8' Snowbear utility trailer, 2012 Polaris 500HO LE in Camo, 7 x 14 TWF Landscape trailer w/2 ramps.
TechWrench is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-08-2007, 02:18 PM #23
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
a77boy a77boy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 121
a77boy is an unknown quantity at this point
Hopefully all will work fine during the summer months
a77boy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-08-2007, 05:38 PM #24
greasefingers's Avatar
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
greasefingers greasefingers is offline
Senior Member
greasefingers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,941
greasefingers is on a distinguished road
Yup I diagnosed my boss
__________________
2003 4x4 Sport 4runner V8, Scion HU w 4 upgraded speakers, Hella horns, MapLight Mod, de-badged 85 k + miles
1994 Jeep GC with 202,500 miles
1990 Corolla 168,000 miles
1994 Volvo 850 165,000 miles
2003 Camry 12,500 miles
greasefingers is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 01:17 PM #25
rando's Avatar
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
rando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
I got the same 'national back-order' message from Partznet this morning after wondering why I hadn't received my parts yet. I just took a look at the wiring manual and believe it points to the cause of the premature relay failure. This relay is switching an inductive load but doesn't have a mechanism to absorb the "kick back" EMF produced when the load is de-energized. The energy very likely escapes the system by arc'ing across the open relay switch contacts.

Over time, this design is likely to cause the relay contacts to fail to properly conduct current. Possible failure modes are stuck open or intermittent stuck open, or even stuck closed. Any of these faults will result in a failure of the compressor lock sensor circuit. The A/C control module will respond by blinking the light and shutting down the compressor. If your failure was the stuck closed type, banging the relay on the counter could bring it back to life (temporarily).

I'm going to try swapping the relay with my fog lights (until my new relay comes) AND adding a reverse polarity diode across the switch contacts to dump the inductive load back to the supply. My guess is the new relay has the diode built in or it uses a more durable switch contact material/size so it can withstand this kind of punishment longer.

UPDATE: See later posts -- you need to install the diode between pin #3 and GND, not as pictured in the next post.

Last edited by rando; 05-09-2007 at 10:18 PM.
rando is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 02:39 PM #26
rando's Avatar
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
rando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
Here's the intended orientation of the protection diode. I don't advise anyone else try this since my relay didn't survive the heat from the soldering iron -- ended up dead completely.

UPDATE: This circuit doesn't work -- see later posts for the correct solution.
Attached Images
A/C light flashing??-protection-diode-jpg 

Last edited by rando; 05-09-2007 at 10:19 PM.
rando is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 02:44 PM #27
rando's Avatar
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
rando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
Since my relay is now completely dead, I thought I'd go ahead and confirm a few theories.

A) This is a mechanical relay -- OK, I already knew that since I could hear it clicking on/off on the bench.

B) The charring around the relay contacts supports the theory that arcing is causing the premature failure. A diode as pictured above would solve this problem.
Attached Images
A/C light flashing??-relay-contact-charring-jpg 

Last edited by rando; 05-11-2007 at 05:39 AM.
rando is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 04:40 PM #28
Kmvreter's Avatar
Kmvreter Kmvreter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,015
Kmvreter will become famous soon enough
Kmvreter Kmvreter is offline
Senior Member
Kmvreter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,015
Kmvreter will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally posted by rando

B) The charring around the relay contacts supports the theory that arc'ing is causing the premature failure. A diode as pictured above would solve this problem.
Thanks for the disection Rando. Good info.
I don't have a relay failure yet but am out of warranty so I would like to do some prevention.
Since the durable relay is hard to get would it help to splice the diode somewhere else in the circuit (due to the solder heat at the relay)? What are the specs on the diode you suggest?
Thanks again.
__________________
__________________

'04 SR5 V6 4x4 Galactic Grey Mica. Delivered 03/17/2004. Link to my mod list in posts 7, 8 & 9 of this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?t=21354
____________
[__/[_[_\____\,_
L---L-L-L--0=*=0
`(o)_---(o)_--)_)`.........
``````````````````````` The battle begins at the end of your driveway... Game On! "Car!"
Kmvreter is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 06:43 PM #29
rando's Avatar
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
rando rando is offline
Senior Member
rando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Palos Verdes Peninsula, CA
Posts: 1,141
rando is on a distinguished road
Any general purpose rectifier should be fine (ex: 1N400x series). I used a 1N4005 equivalent part. It's rated at 1A (far more than the inductor kickback will produce) and 600V reverse voltage tolerance which means it should survive the nasty load load dumps and other transients that appear from time to time on the automotive alternator/battery supply rail.

I went ahead and moved the Fogs relay over since it's unlikely I'll need them anytime soon. For now, I just went ahead and installed the diode as pictured -- just without the solder (i.e. surface tension only). When I get some more time, I'll look for an easy and safe spot to install it. The wiring manual suggests there are a couple of junctions in that circuit. The A2 socket at the compressor clutch / sensor might be a viable option -- in this case you'd hook the diode anode to ground (UDPATE: In fact this is the proper solution) .

An obvious alternative would be to build a small harness including the diode to fit between the relay and the socket, using blade connectors.

Last edited by rando; 05-11-2007 at 05:52 AM.
rando is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 05-09-2007, 07:58 PM #30
TechWrench's Avatar
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
TechWrench TechWrench is offline
Senior Member
TechWrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Hawley, PA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,734
TechWrench is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by rando
Since my relay is now completely dead, I thought I'd go ahead and confirm a few theories.

A) This is a mechanical relay -- OK, I already knew that since I could hear it clicking on/off on the bench.

B) The charring around the relay contacts supports the theory that arc'ing is causing the premature failure. A diode as pictured above would solve this problem.
Nice detective work. I'm not used to seeing mechanical relays sealed like that, Thats why I thought it might be a SSR. I guess it is to keep them clean given the environment they work in. Though some of the other relays in the box aren't sealed, in any case. Those contacts are, with out a doubt, burnt. I'm hoping the fog light relay holds out until the new relay is available again. I think the original A/C relay lasted 3 years, so I hope we have some time before the next one fries.
__________________
I can Explain it to you, I can't Understand it for you.
'03 Limited V8, Dark Blue, 265/70R16 Blizzak DM-V1's on '02 OEM alloys (winter), OEM Cig lighter module, Anti-chipmunk mod for fresh air intake, Draw Tite hitch upgrade, Equalizer WD system, '91 Coachmen Catalina 260FK, '89 Grumman GSS w/35HP Force O/B, 8' Snowbear utility trailer, 2012 Polaris 500HO LE in Camo, 7 x 14 TWF Landscape trailer w/2 ramps.
TechWrench is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A/C Light Blinking on 2003 LTD bluduk15 Problems & Warranty Issues 60 06-18-2019 06:55 PM
D light on dash not lighting up (sometimes): DRC 4th Gen T4Rs 4 10-17-2013 02:09 PM
1st gen brake and charge light flashing?? Leo Ahearn Classic T4Rs 10 05-14-2012 10:09 AM
a/c light burnt out nc211 4th Gen T4Rs 2 01-27-2009 11:22 AM
AC problem: light flashing, no cold air buwen 4th Gen T4Rs 2 03-30-2006 01:31 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
***This site is an unofficial Toyota site, and is not officially endorsed, supported, authorized by or affiliated with Toyota. All company, product, or service names references in this web site are used for identification purposes only and may be trademarks of their respective owners. The Toyota name, marks, designs and logos, as well as Toyota model names, are registered trademarks of Toyota Motor Corporation***Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
 
Copyright © 2019


Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.