Public Comment for Tahoe DEIS extended...re: NO more wheeling in snow!!

[Ruffian]

Please everyone who either enjoys our public lands or specificly wants to protect our rights. Send a letter using the proper comment form, pick a specific place/trail etc. If you think they won't do this, go back and see all the trails they closed in El Dorado Forest...yeah...we're talking the Rubicon here people. And the Panamint Valley trail. Tahoe is next.

Tahoe comment deadline extended one month
Written by Ann Westling
Tuesday, 18 November 2008 18:57
The comment period for Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Tahoe National Forest Travel Management process will be extended for one month until December 26, 2008 announced Forest Supervisor Tom Quinn.

 

[Ruffian]

My personal letter

I've lived in Northern California most of my life with just a year or two down on the coast. I am writing because I am concerned about the extensive closures to the user created routes and the winter closure to the Tahoe Forest area. I am a member of the Capital City Mountain Goats and have also been going to the WeBuilt club meetings. I have done this so that not only I recreate with others in a safe manner, but also that I may modify my vehicle in the proper manner so as not to hurt myself, my vehicle, and the land that I choose to off road on.

Since I do not have the proper vehicle to safely enjoy the more extreme trails California offers, I mostly use the trails to explore the great history that is found on California's back trails and roads. However, I do love the occasional challenge that can be found in areas like Greenhorn and Fordyce to better test my ability in controlling my SUV. I love seeing the wonder in a young childs eyes as they get to experience not only the historical sites, but also the great beauty of Mother Nature in the raw that can not be experienced via the web or on TV. It is our greatest legacy to pass on, via hands on, how to love our natural resources. And to ensure it remains available and why it's called the land of the free, and not the land of the regulated. I also love the fact of seeing youth come back to a older person once they have had a chance to relax out of the stressful city life. I feel it in my own heart every single time I get to leave the paved road for a dirt one. Every season I look forward to the change, and I prepare my 4x4 for the same. For summer I make sure the cooling system is prepared for the higher temps so that I don't have a boil over, and I make sure my fire extinguisher is fully charged. Like wise for winter, I make sure my tires are in the best condition so that when I let the air out of them to carefully travel over snow, I'm not damaging the wet surface below. If I come across any mud holes, I take the best route so that I'm not further leaving deep ruts. To have all this taken away from me is a heartbreaker! I wonder how I will deal with the increasing stress and not be able to alleviate it in a healthy outdoors way. We need more education for those who travel these roads, not more barriers. If I see another person off road behaving in a reckless manner, I stop to try to educate them in not only the potential damage they could do to the land and their vehicle, but also that they are risking that we could lose our right to freely be in this area. Most of the time they are shocked more over the land being closed than the worry towards their vehicle! That is how I pay back the friends and family who have taught me the same. To loose these trails is going to take away funds to smaller towns where many of these trail heads are located. No one will be stopping for gas, snacks, supplies, or in a restaurant for a nice hot meal afterwards. Just in setting up my vehicle with a CB system has cost me over $200. I can see where hotels will suffer with lack of large traveling groups. Local shops will not have as many customers for proper trail rated gear and of course for the occasional broken part! To close these trails will mean more local businesses with closed doors. The passage of closing these trails will be nothing but negative.

Thank you very much for reading my letter and I only hope without getting too gushy I emulated how important these trails are to me, my family, and friends. It's truly tragic that there are people out there who think the best way to educate someone is by taking it entirely away. That is not what America's freedom is about.

 

[Mabuse]

I'm a California resident and I emailed them a message. I hope others here do as well.

Even if you don't live in the Lake Tahoe area this is an important issue. Closure here will set a precedent and lead to closures elsewhere.

 

[Ruffian]

Ok so this can't be so bad?

They've produced a video and book & website. Read for yourself. They are pushing for an out right ban on motorized sports.

http://stopthrillcraft.org/getthere.htm

 

[shuly]

For years they have been shutting access to trails in CA. Letters haven't seemed to help (in my experience.) Are there other more pro-active things we can do to stop trail closures? I don't mean radical/greenpeace crazy but something beyond just sending letters. It seems (IMO) that we give the impression to those in charge we are just whining. The people with the power seem to have already made up their mind to close the trail and are simply going through the legal motions to keep within the law...just something to think about? Has anyone had success with alternate/specific methods of keeping trails open?

These stopthrillcraft people are nutz. No one seems to think logically anymore. They claim we willy nilly race across the land...please I rarely go above 10mph unless its a graded road. And on top of that I stay on the road I don't trample plants ugh! Their vision is preposterous...there are plenty of places to go that vehicles cannot get to. Has anyone ever hiked to Mt. Whitney, or in Yosemite, etc? When you get into the back country there are no vehicles no people except quiet and a maybe a few animals saying hello. These people seem to think that motorized sports pollute all land, which we know isn't true. The sad thing is that the 1-2% of the off-roading community are the ones ruining it for all of us.

 

[MikesToy]

That's the cleanest 4th Gen i've seen in the snow. :bigok:

 

[Ruffian]

For years they have been shutting access to trails in CA. Letters haven't seemed to help (in my experience.) Are there other more pro-active things we can do to stop trail closures? I don't mean radical/greenpeace crazy but something beyond just sending letters. It seems (IMO) that we give the impression to those in charge we are just whining. The people with the power seem to have already made up their mind to close the trail and are simply going through the legal motions to keep within the law...just something to think about? Has anyone had success with alternate/specific methods of keeping trails open?

These stopthrillcraft people are nutz. No one seems to think logically anymore. They claim we willy nilly race across the land...please I rarely go above 10mph unless its a graded road. And on top of that I stay on the road I don't trample plants ugh! Their vision is preposterous...there are plenty of places to go that vehicles cannot get to. Has anyone ever hiked to Mt. Whitney, or in Yosemite, etc? When you get into the back country there are no vehicles no people except quiet and a maybe a few animals saying hello. These people seem to think that motorized sports pollute all land, which we know isn't true. The sad thing is that the 1-2% of the off-roading community are the ones ruining it for all of us.

Unfortunetly, letters is what they are looking at. When they get letters either for or against, they scan them to see what people are writting on for. Greenhorn, Fordyce, camping, etc. They each get placed into a pile to be further read over later. That is why we are asked to write numerous letters for each thing we find insulting, wrong, in the DEIS that the environmentalists and Forest Service have info. gathered.

So, no! We need those letters. Right now it's really not looking good. Last tally I heard at the Webilt meeting was that the Forest Service has got around 800 letters against the DEIS, and near 3,000 for! We are in serious trouble because people did not take the environmentalists serious, they did not tread lightly, and now we are at risk of being banned from our wheeling/camping spots. And I know none of us wants this to happen. So please take 5 min. Go to the pirate 4x4 website and use that letter writter format to protest something SPECIFIC about the DEIS that you don't want to see happen/is wrong/is insulting etc.
Thank you very much!

MikesToy: I named my pretty Ruffian because we are both, well, ruffians. Because we both are girls that like to get dirty, we just do it with class. :
Besides, she gets dirty when she needs too. Why do you think I need some good quality floor mats!!!???
This was her first off road trip. Yeah, she didn't even have plates yet!

 

[K.C.]

Ruffian is diRRRRRRRRRRRRRRty.

 

[shuly]

Unfortunetly, letters is what they are looking at. ..... Last tally I heard at the Webilt meeting was that the Forest Service has got around 800 letters against the DEIS, and near 3,000 for! We are in serious trouble ...

You completely missed my point. I don't mean to offend I am just stating the facts, of which you have clearly pointed out yourself: 800 vs. 3000, with a letter from me that is 801. There are and seem to always be too many people trying to take away trails. It doesn't seem to make any difference until we are 3000 and the people trying to close the trails are 800. I am not opposed to writing letters; I never meant to imply that. I only meant to ask the question to those who have had success keeping trails open by other means than the typical (which IMO do not work). Historically over the past 20 years we have lost approximately 50% of the trails in CA.

So again I ask...

Originally posted by Shuly
The people with the power seem to have already made up their mind to close the trail and are simply going through the legal motions to keep within the law...just something to think about? Has anyone had success with alternate/specific methods of keeping trails open?

 

[Ruffian]

Oh no worries! I totally didn't mean to come across as yelling at you or upset. And I'm trying my best, but perhaps I'm not doing a good job.
I only meant that right now the writting letters and showing support that you don't want the trails closed is what they are looking for. If people are non-responsive, that's an act of acceptance. So don't worry about the 800 vs. 3000 thing. A lot of that 3000 are from Greenies that don't even live here, and are fighting for things that have nothing to do with specifics on the trails around here. They want trails closed because there are people allowing their 8 year old child ride an ATV or some other sort of "thrillcraft" all by themselves. They want people to "park the car" and hike to lower diabetes. They want people to drive only on pavement because the sound of a motor is disturbing the wildlife and causing the bears to leave. Because you know if left alone, bears and people can live in harmony....lol.

"Originally posted by Shuly
The people with the power seem to have already made up their mind to close the trail and are simply going through the legal motions to keep within the law...just something to think about? Has anyone had success with alternate/specific methods of keeping trails open?"

Yes, by showing solidarity by the people who USE these trails and why they USE these trails, the Forest Service is going to chose the best methods. If they need to start charging entrance to Greenhorn to pay for enforcement, then they can do that with proof back to the BIG decision makers that is what the people want. And not just the whining from the special interest groups is going to effect them. And your right in that if they had made up their mind, why would they even ask for responce? The trails would of just been closed with no warning. This is our chance to say no, not our trails. Or at least the ones people do want to stay open.

I'm just a peon here ok? I just use the trails, I don't want them closed, and I want the Greenies to focus on saving things that really matter. Please, again, go to the Prirate 4x4 site and contact Bebe.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=728995

Other than the loss that I feel over losing our trails, she is the force behind motivating me to start this thread. She is the one who's been going to the meetings, and she is the one who has read the entire DEIS report. She can help you better than me on specifics. She totally, and litteraly, rocks! One smart cookie, and I am bowled over by the work and time she has commited to educating the public and not letting this quietly slip by. If you want, I can post a question over there for you. I just went to one Forest Service meeting and am trying to do my part by at least educating/alerting my T4R family.

Thank you for reading, and thanks to all if you have taken the 5 min. to send your letter via the letter writer.
Melinda

 

[shuly]

Yes, by showing solidarity by the people who USE these trails and why they USE these trails, the Forest Service is going to chose the best methods. If they need to start charging entrance to Greenhorn to pay for enforcement, then they can do that with proof back to the BIG decision makers that is what the people want. And not just the whining from the special interest groups is going to effect them. And your right in that if they had made up their mind, why would they even ask for responce? The trails would of just been closed with no warning. This is our chance to say no, not our trails. Or at least the ones people do want to stay open.

OK I don't think you get my point. Look isn't this what we as an off-roading community (if it is ok to call the group that) what we have been doing for 20 years. My question was meant to provoke some positive discussion and/or hopefully a new solution to an old problem.

Basically all "we" do is the same thing over and over and achieve the same results. If you are stuck in a mud puddle and all 4 tires are spinning...you are totally stuck...and you have tried the same exact thing to get out 10 times, why do you try the 11th? My point...we can keep sending letters but does anyone have anything more constructive that they have done and/or found new ways of dealing with these matters. I am sorry but I have lived in CA all my life and I repeatedly find is that these letter writing campaigns rarely help to keep trails open.

Please do send your letters...but really has anyone out there had success with keeping trails open with non-conventional thinking? Any rangers or contact with rangers that might have ideas?

 

[RL Lemke]

http://stopthrillcraft.org/getthere.htm [/B]

One of the most effective groups to help keep trails open for everybody is the Blueribbon Coalition.

http://www.sharetrails.org/

 

[Ruffian]

Shuly,
I brought your question up last night at the 4 wheel drive meeting held in the Cal 4 Wheel office.
Yes the letters work. In regards to the El Dorado DEIS, we lost trails, but not WE as in the off roaders. These were mostly foot paths etc.
The letters the Forest Service wants us to send in are proof that the certain trails are being used by honest citizens, and not dishonest people like the ones that are utilizing public lands to illegally log, farm marijuana, bury bodies etc.

I let them hear you exact comment:

"OK I don't think you get my point. Look isn't this what we as an off-roading community (if it is ok to call the group that) what we have been doing for 20 years. My question was meant to provoke some positive discussion and/or hopefully a new solution to an old problem.

Basically all "we" do is the same thing over and over and achieve the same results. If you are stuck in a mud puddle and all 4 tires are spinning...you are totally stuck...and you have tried the same exact thing to get out 10 times, why do you try the 11th? My point...we can keep sending letters but does anyone have anything more constructive that they have done and/or found new ways of dealing with these matters. I am sorry but I have lived in CA all my life and I repeatedly find is that these letter writing campaigns rarely help to keep trails open. "

Letter writting is the most productive next to continuing your support by being an active member with Cal 4 Wheel, or any 4WD club. By continuing to use the lands as your right as a public citizen, and by continuing to be a good steward of the lands by "treading lightly". The letters that you send in by correctly stipulating what you DON'T want them to close, 4 wheeling in the snow, wildlife patterns, data collected, etc. specific comments to specific incorrect comments in the DEIS will bring the NPS attention to correct what the public finds wrong.

In other words, they'll leave the trails and roads open, allow wheeling in the snow, etc. etc. as long as enough people are going to correctly use them. If there is too much damage, then for the better of the land, certain trails will need to be closed.

There ya go!

 

[Mabuse]

Is there any update on this? Was the closure successful?

 

[Ruffian]

Last I heard is that they closed the comment period. Thanked everyone for commenting, and that they would release what will happen next soon.