Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen

Blackwatch said:

Yes, the job ad posted for the Mexico plant sounds pretty convincing that the 4R will be made in Mexico. I think the 610l is the 5th gen and they either didn't want to post the 6th gen code or didn't know what it was at the time the job ad went up. Either way it makes more sense to make the 4R in the same factory as the taco with most of the same parts.

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So well deduced, it gives me assurance on my perspective. This level of casual intelligence and staunch common sense in this forum, is why I get so pissed at stupid YouTubers and other folks who miss little clues out there. This is impressive, because so many people wouldn't have arrived at the result you all have and just haven't been at all.

The program code is actually 930B and Toyota has scrubbed it from everywhere possible 3rd party database, only leaving it with some select sources close to them. Some cease and desist action has occurred on a Tacoma forum I post on, where the sources posts' have all been scrubbed. 920B is virtually everywhere as the Tacoma no thanks to careless employees and suppliers, but this guy right here gave it away. Now he's gone.

I had seen 930B, but had no idea what vehicle it was. It's the next 4Runner.

Toyota recycles old model codes every blue moon, whether 20 something or 30 something years down the road. See how close they are marked? The Tacoma started out as 989A, but then Toyota secretly redesignated the model code for 2020 MMC to 625B. Most publicly accessible sources will continue to recognize it as 989A, but it has since been reshuffled by Toyota as 625B.

The Tundra likely started out as "954A" many years ago, but a major shift in the program likely resulted in the change in program code to 780B. A guy connected with Toyota named "D.T.", is just gobsmackingly impressive with what he knows about product planning on Toyota BOFs and TNGA-F in the 2010s. Wow, just wow. My head is still spinning, especially on so many things I had been wrong about pre-TNGA-F debut.

Out of respect for his intel, I don't want to parrot his info without his deserved credit for it or violating his confidence, but Toyota had a major reboot on developing these vehicles some years ago and THIS is why everything came SO LATE to market, than expected. TNGA-F was just Land Cruiser once upon a time apparently and caused ripples to align everything to it. That's all I will say for now. So many concessions, that if I touch on what he said, Toyota WILL take OFFENSE and investigate.

It's like whistleblowing here, because he's the reason why you knew in the first place from me 11 months ago, this wouldn't be a 2023 model anymore and 2024+ instead. On the other hand, the other guy DJinTN leaked the 930B program code, while replying to a post of mine about the 920B Tacoma. Now he has vanished.

Just too interesting how this all keeps coming together, from random discussion I start. This is why I do this, if it is drawing Toyota-informed folks out of the woodwork, to spill more and aid us all. Discussion never gets there, if you pretend like development isn't ongoing and depending on clueless YouTubers who know next to nil.

These forums are where the magic happens, in terms of real future insight and it has never been any different, save for the occasional incognito commenter in a comment section.

Back in June 2017, some 5 years ago, I came across some supplier database information using my Jaguar Land Rover credentials. I saw some "dummy codes" for Toyota North American production and saw that the next generation NX, was listed for Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada and ran with it to a Lexus forum (below). I had issues with the given data, because I knew for a fact that the production date expected was summer of 2020 for the 2nd generation NX.

A lot of my info was off per my sources back then, but shockingly in April 2019, Toyota announced Lexus NX production plans for TMMC. This information published in 2016 was correct, some 2.5 years of announcement.

Toyota to begin producing the popular Lexus NX compact luxury SUV in Canada | Lexus | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Production ultimately began in the spring of 2022, rolling off in April 2022.
Toyota Starts Canadian Production of the Popular Lexus NX Compact Luxury SUV | Lexus Canada

This pattern is identical to how I came up with TMMGT producing the 4Runner.

Currently there's been no announcement to date, so one is just waiting to see when.

Lexus unveiled the engines for the new RX350. Top line gets the 2.4 turbo hybrid. 367 HP and 407 torque...26 mpg with a 6 speed auto.
I'm betting this engine goes in the 4Runner TRD Pro.

Blackwatch said:

Lexus unveiled the engines for the new RX350. Top line gets the 2.4 turbo hybrid. 367 HP and 407 torque...26 mpg with a 6 speed auto.
I'm betting this engine goes in the 4Runner TRD Pro.

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Only a 6 speed?

I'm curious how you believe that engine will perform going over mountain passes at 8k feet? That's really my biggest grip about the 4Runner's engine. Driving in the mountains is not fun.

I wonder what this means the GX will get.

Blackwatch said:

Lexus unveiled the engines for the new RX350. Top line gets the 2.4 turbo hybrid. 367 HP and 407 torque...26 mpg with a 6 speed auto.
I'm betting this engine goes in the 4Runner TRD Pro.

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They did make it a bit confusing in the press release, but it's the 500h F Sport that gets the 6-speed. the RX350 has the 8-speed or a CVT.

REDEFINING THE LUXURY CROSSOVER THAT LAUNCHED A SEGMENT: THE ALL-NEW 2023 LEXUS RX - Lexus USA Newsroom

God its ugly. They just can't seem to get the styling for that car right.

mscot said:

Only a 6 speed?

I'm curious how you believe that engine will perform going over mountain passes at 8k feet? That's really my biggest grip about the 4Runner's engine. Driving in the mountains is not fun.

I wonder what this means the GX will get.

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I'm not an engineer but they say a turbo engine does not lose power at altitude like the NA engines. I fear change but this new 2.4 turbo hybrid might be a great fit in the 4R considering what the options are for us.

balong48 said:

They did make it a bit confusing in the press release, but it's the 500h F Sport that gets the 6-speed. the RX350 has the 8-speed or a CVT.

REDEFINING THE LUXURY CROSSOVER THAT LAUNCHED A SEGMENT: THE ALL-NEW 2023 LEXUS RX - Lexus USA Newsroom

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Yeah, I meant the top line RX350 meaning the 500h F sport. Since the Tundra TRD Pro has the hybrid option I can see Toyota offering the hybrid option in the Pro version to compete against the Bronco. It's looking like that 2.4 turbo will be in the 4R so it makes sense to hybridize it for the Pro.

Blackwatch said:

I'm not an engineer but they say a turbo engine does not lose power at altitude like the NA engines. I fear change but this new 2.4 turbo hybrid might be a great fit in the 4R considering what the options are for us.

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That non-hybrid 2.4T with the 8 speed slushy looks like a good option. Seems to be the same engine as the new Highlander with a more aggressive tune.

Jeff_DML said:

That non-hybrid 2.4T with the 8 speed slushy looks like a good option. Seems to be the same engine as the new Highlander with a more aggressive tune.

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This is the widely rumoured and anticipated engine/trans in the taco and 4Runner coming up. I wonder if the difference in power between the Lexus and Highlander is just the premium vs regular gas?

I would want more power unless the 4R loses a lot of weight. I can't see Toyota throwing a detuned tundra motor in it. The future is small and electric with hybrids and a few turbos bridging the gap.

I'm not an engineer but they say a turbo engine does not lose power at altitude like the NA engines. I fear change but this new 2.4 turbo hybrid might be a great fit in the 4R considering what the options are for us.

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You are correct. The rule of thumb is 3% loss of power for every 1000 ft above sea level. I was driving through Colorado in my ~215 hp car but through the mountain passes I had about ~150 hp. I could absolutely feel my engine starving for air.

Look, an obese Accord!

KimchiJae said:

You are correct. The rule of thumb is 3% loss of power for every 1000 ft above sea level. I was driving through Colorado in my ~215 hp car but through the mountain passes I had about ~150 hp. I could absolutely feel my engine starving for air.

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So that means the 4Runner has about 220hp in the mtns here. Is it the same % loss for torque, b/c that's the 4.0s real issue?

So what's the build relation to the TX traditionally? I take it the 4R is after the GX (Prado). Is this new GX based on the Prado or is a whole new thing?

Is the GX a North America only thing?

It honestly makes sense to have North America only cars made here, if that's the case.

_chassis_ said:

Look, an obese Accord!

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Is that a Beluga Whale on land? Lol

Honestly I don't think Toyota knows what the **** they want to do at this point. Sounds like the Sequoia was barely kept around and they scraped the original design and tried to use as much of the Tundra as they could at the last minute. Speaking of which, it is painfully obvious that we're ridiculously desperate to push that thing out this model year, the QC is abhorrent and disappointing coming from Toyota; not to mention just trying to get information on them is a nightmare. There are so many QC issues that trying to compare it to a known good vehicle has you going "is this normal because the other 5 on the lot are like this, or are they all just ****ed up?" Trying to get answer from TAS, tier 2, or even an FTS is a mixed bag; no one seems to know what to say about the numerous issues or wants to make a definitive statement. Would not surprise me if Toyota Japan was leaning heavily on Toyota NA to axe the Truck/SUV line up like they wanted to do back around the shift to the Texas plant. I'm sure the EPA and CAFE standards played a role in this as well as trying to predict what the next administration/policy change will look like.

But given what I've seen over the last decade or two o would venture to guess the compartmentalization and incongruous communication internally had just reached a point where shit is being approved, axed, and then scrambled back into development like a schizophrenic on crack. The biggest eye opener came when Toyota/Scion made a huge deal about releasing three new Scion Models to great big fanfare... to then shutter all of Scion before the end of the first model year of those vehicles and then scramble to rebrand them and absorb them into the Toyota line-up. Was just so out of left field that it made it clear that the ship's wheel went missing.

Unfortunately I'm going to have to concede that the Turbo 4 is likely the drivetrain they're going with and I'm not entirely sure how to feel about that. It also would not shock me if they pulled a 3rd Sequioa and scrapped the 6th gen only to quickly bring it back by Frankensteining a 4th Gen Tacoma and only offering it in hybrid to get that extra 1mpg for the fleet average. I'm not going to say Toyota is a sinking ship, because they're doing relatively fine and make some decent vehicles. But it's clear that they're so fractured internally and the left hand has no clue what the right hand is doing; they're just bloating their lineup with so much chaff to eek out better fleet averages and their design goals are all over the place at the moment. I don't know if it's Hunger Games in the corporate boardrooms or what, but clearly something started cracking well before COVID and these last couple years have just fully broken something internally.

BlackWorksInc said:

Speaking of which, it is painfully obvious that we're ridiculously desperate to push that thing out this model year, the QC is abhorrent and disappointing coming from Toyota; not to mention just trying to get information on them is a nightmare. There are so many QC issues that trying to compare it to a known good vehicle has you going "is this normal because the other 5 on the lot are like this, or are they all just ****ed up?"

I'm not going to say Toyota is a sinking ship, because they're doing relatively fine and make some decent vehicles. But it's clear that they're so fractured internally and the left hand has no clue what the right hand is doing;

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I'm afraid we may not have much hope that the 6th 4Runner will be any better than the new low quality Tundra or the new Bronco. It seems the reality is that Toyota realized they rode the "buy a Toyota for its reliability and quality" for as many years as they could but now the party is over. They are trying to figure out how to pump out the most vehicles for the least cost in order to chase profitability and keep up with Ford, GM, Stellantis, etc.

If you took the brand name off the fender of the Tundra and Bronco, all the stupid missteps and quality issues look like two peas in a pod. The funny thing is, Jeep, having been the laughing stock of quality for years, actually started focusing on improvements over the last five years and has come a long way.

Remember, one of the key people at Toyota for 20 years, who helped set the company direction and helped set the company on the path they are on today, a guy named Jim Farley. Now look at the company he runs today, Ford, with similar problems on the roll-out of the new Bronco as the Tundra is facing. Is it a coincidence and simply a manifestation of American automobile manufacturing or something more?


Carmaker1, your insight to the state of the industry is welcome as well.

TexasFunRunner said:

I'm afraid we may not have much hope that the 6th 4Runner will be any better than the new low quality Tundra or the new Bronco. It seems the reality is that Toyota realized they rode the "buy a Toyota for its reliability and quality" for as many years as they could but now the party is over. They are trying to figure out how to pump out the most vehicles for the least cost in order to chase profitability and keep up with Ford, GM, Stellantis, etc.

If you took the brand name off the fender of the Tundra and Bronco, all the stupid missteps and quality issues look like two peas in a pod. The funny thing is, Jeep, having been the laughing stock of quality for years, actually started focusing on improvements over the last five years and has come a long way.

Remember, one of the key people at Toyota for 20 years, who helped set the company direction and helped set the company on the path they are on today, a guy named Jim Farley. Now look at the company he runs today, Ford, with similar problems on the roll-out of the new Bronco as the Tundra is facing. Is it a coincidence and simply a manifestation of American automobile manufacturing or something more?



Carmaker1, your insight to the state of the industry is welcome as well.

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Toyota built their rep on using many of the same parts for years with a laser focus on ironing out any kinks, their cars were basic transportation. Look at the last Tundra. A very basic truck, that cost more than a GM, Ford or Dodge. Unless you were a Toyota fanatic there was no way you bought the Tundra after testing an American truck loaded with features the Toyota couldnt even dream about.

Toyota has now had to add those elaborate features to stay in the fight, hence the dip in quality, but they'll get it under control.

I have worked for Toyota at an OEM and retail level a few times over the years, I didnt like any of their cars until I drove a 4runner. I could have got a sweet discount on a new limited but couldnt fathom popping that much coin on basically a 10 yr old SUV. Hence why I bought my 2006. If its the most reliable SUV, why buy new??? So far my decision has worked.

Flybynight said:

Toyota built their rep on using many of the same parts for years with a laser focus on ironing out any kinks, their cars were basic transportation. Look at the last Tundra. A very basic truck, that cost more than a GM, Ford or Dodge. Unless you were a Toyota fanatic there was no way you bought the Tundra after testing an American truck loaded with features the Toyota couldnt even dream about.

Toyota has now had to add those elaborate features to stay in the fight, hence the dip in quality, but they'll get it under control.

I have worked for Toyota at an OEM and retail level a few times over the years, I didnt like any of their cars until I drove a 4runner. I could have got a sweet discount on a new limited but couldnt fathom popping that much coin on basically a 10 yr old SUV. Hence why I bought my 2006. If its the most reliable SUV, why buy new??? So far my decision has worked.

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Understand, but to call the problematic turbo on the new Tundra an "elaborate feature" or body panels misaligned anything other then poor quality is disingenuous.

Flybynight said:

Toyota built their rep on using many of the same parts for years with a laser focus on ironing out any kinks, their cars were basic transportation. Look at the last Tundra. A very basic truck, that cost more than a GM, Ford or Dodge. Unless you were a Toyota fanatic there was no way you bought the Tundra after testing an American truck loaded with features the Toyota couldnt even dream about.

Toyota has now had to add those elaborate features to stay in the fight, hence the dip in quality, but they'll get it under control.

I have worked for Toyota at an OEM and retail level a few times over the years, I didnt like any of their cars until I drove a 4runner. I could have got a sweet discount on a new limited but couldnt fathom popping that much coin on basically a 10 yr old SUV. Hence why I bought my 2006. If its the most reliable SUV, why buy new??? So far my decision has worked.

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Yeah... I don't disagree about the Toyota vehicles being overpriced for what you get (particularly their truck/SUV line-up); though they have done a better job of fleshing out more realistic models with bells and whistles (the new Highlander being top of that list). But at the same time I also look at the domestic truck market, particularly anything under a 2500/F-250 line-up with "wow, they sure put plenty of polish to distract from that turd. Then again, you're making a point that I unfortunately see far too often these days, people don't plan out a vehicle purchase or consider what they need a vehicle for; they generally shop by phone compatibility or the number of "features" a vehicle has (even if they have no idea if their vehicle comes with those features or how to even use them). The majority of people I have to deal with who just buy a vehicle without any thought as to what they need or what they'll do with it is just staggering... it's very much the "Apple" consumerism mindset that's taken over much of the technology/vehicle segment in the last decade or two; poor engineering and flash sell more than function and reliability.

I don't know, maybe I am just old and jaded... but I would rather have a vehicle that I can trust rather than shiny features to distract me from one that barely stays together. Unfortunately Toyota seems to have been phoning it in for a while now, their go to is to outsource engineering and outright buy other vehicles to sell as their own rather than design or engineer their own stuff. Their partnership with BMW still makes me cringe and I think we're now starting to see some of the issues I predicted popping up in the newer vehicles; thermostat failures, awkward/weird engineering of computer systems and logic, poor design of components with no regard for realistic serviceability besides basically just pulling the drivetrain and tearing it down. Subaru didn't really want the D4S injection system on their BRZ and wanted to plop a turbo on that thing; Toyota was the one who foisted their injection system on that engine and continuously shot down the turbo, despite real world driving, modding community, and just about everyone with two braincells pointing out it could use more power for real world freeway driving/passing. What's worse is that it's not even that they can't design/engineer things, they've shown that they are clearly capable of making a proper sports car with the Yaris & Corolla GRs, the Lexus side of things have shown that Toyota can innovate on the "old ways" of doing things and maintain that Toyota DNA. But as I and others have pointed out earlier, they're rotting from the inside and just end up buying out vehicles and outsourcing their design and engineering these days (ala the Toyota Z4, the Toyota Mazda2, etc.) We could even look at the sudden shift of Toyota to heavily investing into EV tech all of the sudden after many many years of Mr. Toyoda himself having a huge stick up his ass above pure EVs after he was burned by Elon Musk in their not so great partnership with the Rav4 EV as signs that there is some serious disconnection internally.

[MENTION=166416]Carmaker1[/MENTION] has pointed out a lot of things that don't really surprise me at this point and honestly just make me wish that his source and/or others in his source's position could just leak some shit; maybe it'd be a wake-up call for Toyota to pull their heads out of their ass and fix their internal issues.

TexasFunRunner said:

Understand, but to call the problematic turbo on the new Tundra an "elaborate feature" or body panels misaligned anything other then poor quality is disingenuous.

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That I am not entirely surprised by, it's essentially the "Gen 2" version of the engine that was made for Lexus; though weirdly enough from everything I have heard from both Toyota and Lexus persons, the Tundra got the "Gen 2" version before even Lexus did (a bit of an oddity, given that Lexus is usually used to play with new technology/engineering ideas before trickling them down to Toyota; I'm guessing because the cost/risk ratio is more favorable in the Luxury segment and most people who buy a 100k vehicle just care that warranty covers an issue, rather than there being an issue?). From what I have seen/heard/dealt with, it honestly sounds like a manufacturing defect/supplier issue with the linkage assembly of the wastegate portion of the turbo; which is sort of to be expected with a new engine/model of vehicle. Far as I know, it should be fixed by now; the rest of the early production vehicles will likely end up being taken care of under powertrain warranty and/or I wouldn't be shocked if a CSP was released for it. These type of teething issues are fairly normal and if you look back at just about every first model year of a new Model/Generation you'll find plenty of TSBs, TechTips, and Campaigns for various teething issues; what bothers me is more of the quality control issues related to trim, fit, finish, and overall product quality. It hasn't been uncommon to have a smattering of QC issues on new models/gens, but the Tundra takes it to a level I honestly don't remember seeing in my career.

Was parked in front of a brand spanking new Tundra at big orange yesterday. The whole front fascia was visibly diagonal to the hood line and wheels. LOL
I can't believe someone was willing to drive it off the lot.

Wild speculation...perhaps...

Checking out the image that autoblog took while Toyota is testing out the Tacoma...but I noticed the 4runner, and a few things seemed off.
2024 Toyota Tacoma seems to have a rear coil spring suspension

This could be wild speculation but I think they are testing more than we see - perhaps the new engine. More than just the Tacoma. In addition, if we believe the Tacoma and 4runner are going to share more components - this may make sense.

Notice the 4runner...
1. The hood doesn't line up correctly.
2. There is something sticking out of the front of the grill.
3. The thing that is above the windshield is also on the Tacome - but not the other support vehicles.
4. The thing on the side (to the left of the passenger headlight) - it could be a shadow but it might be something else.

I think there could be a different engine shoved into the 4runner for testing. Thoughts?