04-12-2021, 06:44 PM
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#1
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5,000 mile 3.4?!
Welp, my truck decided to blow a headgasket last week and I decided to take a gamble on this motor since the price was right.
The story is that it came from a truck with only 5,000 miles on it that had an engine bay fire. It ended up at the dealer since it was under warranty and instead of replacing external parts they just put a whole new motor into the customers car. It was in the way at the dealership so one of the mechanics gave it to his friend who had a tacoma so he could have a spare engine. It was supposed to be a solid motor at the time. I asked if it ran when pulled and was told yes, but after looking at the wiring I doubt it was started. All of this was second hand from the mechanic, at it happened 20 plus years ago. It sat in this guys garage since the late 90's until he decides to list it on Craigslist this past weekend.
Enter me, in need of a motor and willing to take chances.
I checked it out yesterday and the owners were happy to let me take my time inspecting it. As I am looking it over it clearly is a low miles engine as the inside of the intake is ridiculously clean, appears to have the factory plugs in it, NGK's in the passenger and Denso's in the driver. Piston tops have some carbon but a thin layer. No evidence of rodents in the exhaust or intake. Still had 5 quarts of oil in it, it appeared used but was nice and clean so I assume it is the oil that was last run in it 20 years ago and it looked just fine, no metal etc. The valve cover gaskets never leaked a drop! The engine turns over very smoothly, they had turned it before I got there so I can't say it wasn't stuck the first time, but I was told it wasn't.
Everything is going well until I do a leak down test. The cylinder nearest where the fire was, front on the drivers side (2?), only reads about 28 psi vs around 80 for the others with a 90psi input. I am not sure what the % would be because my chart doesn't go that low, but clearly there is an issue. There air is being lost out the intake and exhaust and I can't detect any coming out of the oil filler cap or cooling system.
At that point I was going to walk away but we came to a price that I couldn't turn down, basically less than what it is likely worth as parts.
I pulled the intake and drivers side exhaust manifold last night and the valves look totally fine, no different than any of the other cylinders. I checked the lash and the intakes are less than .008 which was my thinnest feeler, the exhaust was .012 and .013 if I remember correctly. I pulled the melted timing cover off as well and the timing belt looks brand new, I don't see any signs of heat damage, although I obviously won't be using the belt ever. I appears that the heat was concentrated right on the corner of the motor, it melted the oil filler cap and timing cover, totally burned the wiring going to the starter and alternator, melted the OBD1 connector, but didn't touch either radiator hose or oil cooler hoses. Underneath the valve covers looks nearly brand new and I don't see any discoloration from heat or anything at all that would signal problems. the silicone on the front semi-circle plug is still pliable and doesn't seem affected by heat. The spark plug tube gaskets are also soft and pliable and seem to have no damage, if the head had gotten very hot I would think those would show signs of heat. There is what I believe to be dry chemical fire extinguisher stuff all over outside of the motor but none of it seems to have made it inside. It honestly looks like they put the fire out quickly especially because a fuel hose is burned in half and I would have expected that to cause a total loss of the car, but the fire seems to have been contained to just that corner of the motor.
The valves appear to operate normally but obviously aren't sealing tight. I am not sure whether I should pull the cams to try and diagnose the problem, maybe some light hammer taps on the valve stems could seat them if they are just stuck? Pull the head and take it to a machine shop for diagnosis/rebuild? Put it in the truck and see if the valves seat under compression?
I am pretty tempted to fire this thing but at the same time don't want to do any damage to what may be a perfectly good and nearly new bottom end. From what I can see of the cylinder walls they look great, like a fresh hone.
Of course I will prime it and do my best to oil the cylinders before firing if I go that route, mostly interested in what you all think could be the issue with the valves and what route is best. This is my third 3.4 but I have not taken one of these heads apart yet.
I think it is from a 99, not sure whether a tacoma or 4 runner. It has brown injectors and the second dipstick location is drilled and plugged which puts it in that range I think, and I was told this happened in the 90's.
I will try to post some pictures.
Last edited by swapped_mini; 04-12-2021 at 07:03 PM.
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04-12-2021, 06:55 PM
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#2
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Hope this works
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04-12-2021, 07:30 PM
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#3
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5,000 mile 3.4?!
Wow what a story. Great photos. Thanks for sharing. I’ll be watching this thread to see what happens..
@ swapped_mini
how many miles did you have on your old engine?
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Last edited by cl4Rk; 04-12-2021 at 07:46 PM.
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04-12-2021, 07:58 PM
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#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cl4Rk
Wow what a story. Great photos. Thanks for sharing. I’ll be watching this thread to see what happens..
@ swapped_mini
how many miles did you have on your old engine?
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Well it was a junkyard engine that came out of a 97 4runner with 154k on the odometer. I put at least another 46k on it so it should have been right around 200k when the headgasket went. I ran carfax on the 4runner it came out of and it did go through a used car lot and the mileage seemed suspicious as it only increased by about 20k in ten years, the 4runner looked a little rough for 154,000 but it is hard to say. It ran strong until this happened though.
One reason I wanted a new motor was one cylinder on mine had 175 psi vs 195 on all the others, a leak down test never really showed anything and it never got worse so I just ran it. It wasn't the cylinder that ended up blowing the headgasket either.
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04-12-2021, 09:16 PM
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#5
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That's some yarn! specially after sitting all this time there is not a spec of rust in the cylinder walls. Pictures you posted look good. As for the sticking valves on a motor that old? One or two sticking valve is not a big deal. The leak down test on a crate motor might not be accurate once it's fired up and compression tested, the results might be inline. I would take the bottom pan off and see if it looks as good as the top. According to you, all the gaskets and seals are pliable which is another surprise. I would expect some drying, shrinking and hardening but you have to be the judge of that. Assuming the rear main seal looks and feels just as good as the others. Replace the burnt parts, tune up and timing belt job, with water pump, thermostat, pcv valve and oil the cylinders through the spark plug holes. lube the shafts and fire it up. Personally I would change out all the gaskets hoses etc.
It's a good find and it looks good. A second set of eyes from a friend who knows motors or even a professional for a few sheckles might also he a good idea.
Last edited by spartacus; 04-12-2021 at 10:29 PM.
Reason: Grammer
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04-12-2021, 10:49 PM
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This:
This makes me suspicious "appears to have the factory plugs in it, NGK's in the passenger and Denso's in the driver" tells me the engine has more miles than whats stated. NGK is NOT the factory plugs.
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04-12-2021, 11:18 PM
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#7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissanh
This makes me suspicious "appears to have the factory plugs in it, NGK's in the passenger and Denso's in the driver" tells me the engine has more miles than whats stated. NGK is NOT the factory plugs.
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That's how they were assembled and shipped 3 Denso's driver side and 3 ngk passenger.
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04-12-2021, 11:21 PM
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#8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissanh
This makes me suspicious "appears to have the factory plugs in it, NGK's in the passenger and Denso's in the driver" tells me the engine has more miles than whats stated. NGK is NOT the factory plugs.
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I've never really heard a good explanation of why, but NGK in one bank and Denso in the other is actually typical from the factory for the 5VZ.
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04-13-2021, 12:10 AM
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#9
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That is the answer I was hoping for Spartacus! I don't have any experience with crate motors and what to look for, most the stuff I dig through is junky and rusty. I think I got scared because it was the cylinder that was where the fire was, but I just don't see how the fire could have affected the internals after digging in to it more. I was a little worried about surface rust on the cylinder walls too but I can't see any, but can't see everywhere either. The most amazing thing so far was spinning the exhaust nuts off by hand once I cracked them loose, I couldn't stop myself from laughing a little.
I did ask a friend who has more experience with motors than me and he was of similar thought as you. I am really leaning toward dropping this thing in and firing it off. I may call a couple machine shops though and see if I can get more opinions.
I will drop the pan next, it has to get switched out anyway to one that will clear my front diff. I can't say the seals haven't dried out at all, but they are certainly not hard like a motor that has heat cycled a bunch and mostly I was looking for heat damage by the fire. I was planning to drop in a JDM motor and tear my current one down to do a rebuild/refresh so I already have all the gaskets fresh from the Toyota dealer and a new timing belt. I will reuse all the timing gear from my current motor since it doesn't have too many miles on it. Basically this one will be stripped to the long block and built back up with new hoses and most, if not all seals. Also have a freshly redone set of injectors for it that I was waiting to put in until I had the time to rebuild my supercharger and drop that on...
I will report back when I drop the pan tomorrow, have to work tonight unfortunately.
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04-13-2021, 04:14 AM
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#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissanh
This makes me suspicious "appears to have the factory plugs in it, NGK's in the passenger and Denso's in the driver" tells me the engine has more miles than whats stated. NGK is NOT the factory plugs.
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As stated above, that is the factory configuration.
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04-13-2021, 12:41 PM
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#11
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without a nice engine stand or test bed can you brace it some how....what about throwing some oil into it, put a starter on it and crank it for a few. Or pull the plugs and use an impact gun on the crank bolt to spin the motor a few time
then retest it. Just a thought ?
BTW, that thing sure looks clean and new on the inside....outside looks typical for oxidation and a fire.
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Last edited by 3bears; 04-13-2021 at 12:43 PM.
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04-13-2021, 02:24 PM
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#12
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Yeah, those are 5K old valve covers for sure. I wish you could do a compression test but it can't be done without the transmission mated up to it. That will tell you for sure how healthy the engine is. I really hope this works out for you!
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04-14-2021, 01:09 AM
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#13
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Got it on my engine stand and pulled the pan, looks as good as the rest of the motor. Will cut the filter open but I doubt I will find anything. Do people cut these open with shears? I would imagine any power tool would just make a huge mess.
Only the backs of the pistons show any real signs that this motor has been run. Cylinder walls look great with lots of crosshatching.
It had a little bit of coolant left as expected and it looks fine, maybe a little thick from evaporation? No signs of rust behind the thermostat.
The crank pulley bolt was a royal pain to get out! bolted a spanner to the back of the crank after removing the flexplate and braced it against the floor. My 1/2" impact was beginning to round the corners off of the bolt and it wasn't budging, I heated the bolt a couple times but didn't get it real hot, started cycling the impact back a forth and it finally popped free. Will be getting a new bolt tomorrow along with the flywheel and pressure plate bolts I forgot last time I was at the dealer.
I didn't realize these motors had a VIN tag until I came across this one. I couldn't find anything about the car so paid for a carfax. It is from a 1999 4runner as expected. The car is still owned by the original owner and was registered December 2020 less than an hour from where I live! Not sure if I can find their contact info but would love to talk to them to hear the story. How cool would that be.
It shows that the 4runner was leased as a new vehicle in Dec. of 1998. It was in for service at 23,066 miles in Feb. of 2000 and then shows a rebuilt title was issued at 24,000 miles in June of 2000. So, me thinks this motor might have about 24,000 miles on it. Not 5,000 but who really cares, even if there is an issue with the valves the rest looks fantastic. I am kind of impressed with how clean it is for 24,000 miles, but the only other motor I have opened up with that mileage was a struggling rebuilt 22r so I can't say I know what to expect.
Talked with a machinist whom I don't know but came recommended through one of the local auto parts stores with knowledgeable people. He recommended pulling the head to check the valves. One thing I was worried about with pulling the head is whether the head might need resurfacing to seal well with an MLS gasket, he seemed to think it should be fine but I am still a little worried that it could be an issue down the road. I am really leaning toward dropping it in just with new timing gear and seals, I can always pull the head in the truck if I have too, obviously not ideal though.
He suggested spraying Windex on the back of the valves while running air in the cylinder to see which valves are leaking and how much, hadn't thought of that and will do it in the morning.
Thanks for the replies, will post back more tomorrow.
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04-14-2021, 01:31 AM
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#14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3bears
without a nice engine stand or test bed can you brace it some how....what about throwing some oil into it, put a starter on it and crank it for a few. Or pull the plugs and use an impact gun on the crank bolt to spin the motor a few time
then retest it. Just a thought ?
BTW, that thing sure looks clean and new on the inside....outside looks typical for oxidation and a fire.
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I hadn't thought of using a test stand just for the starter, I suppose I could fab up some mounts, weld them to my welding table and crank it over. My engine stand is a cheapy. I could also just drop it onto the mounts in the vehicle, I nearly got my engine pulled today. I'll consider this option. It still has timing gear on it so wouldn't be too hard to just connect it to my battery...
I am not sure an impact would turn it over well, It might just move it in short strokes as the hammers hit. Interesting thought though, I might have to try this just to see how it works.
I can see the valves opening and closing as I spin the motor with a breaker bar, they just don't seem to be seating in that cylinder. The backs of valves and the stems look just about like the other cylinders. I feel like it probably just needs some compression to slam them home and some fresh oil to lube them up. fingers crossed!
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04-14-2021, 06:37 PM
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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swapped_mini
I hadn't thought of using a test stand just for the starter, I suppose I could fab up some mounts, weld them to my welding table and crank it over. My engine stand is a cheapy. I could also just drop it onto the mounts in the vehicle, I nearly got my engine pulled today. I'll consider this option. It still has timing gear on it so wouldn't be too hard to just connect it to my battery...
I am not sure an impact would turn it over well, It might just move it in short strokes as the hammers hit. Interesting thought though, I might have to try this just to see how it works.
I can see the valves opening and closing as I spin the motor with a breaker bar, they just don't seem to be seating in that cylinder. The backs of valves and the stems look just about like the other cylinders. I feel like it probably just needs some compression to slam them home and some fresh oil to lube them up. fingers crossed!
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The starter mounts to the bellhousing on the transmission, which you can remove, so if you're willing to take apart your transmission you could do it that way as well. I think you'd just have to take out the torque converter and the bellhousing only has 8 or 10 bolts holding it in if I remember. Been a while since I took one off. Then just bolt to the back of your engine and bolt on the starter.
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