Post-lift Alignment woes

team_gforce

team_gforce

New member
After 2 attempts by 2 different shops, I still feel a little disappointed in my alignment specs. I feel as though I should be getting much better numbers but am by no means an expert in geometry and alignment. So here is the story:

Step 1: Install Toytec 2.5 Boss kit. Net lift in the front is about 2.5" as measured from the center of the wheel.
Step 2: Install 285/70/17 Toyo OC AT2's on factory Trail wheels.
Step 3: Alignment done by Nissan dealership. (I know, i know, but this was the only place i could find a full set of the exact tire I wanted. Sept/Oct is not the best time of year to shop for tires in Alaska).
Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.2* 0.1*
Caster 1.5* 0.9*
Toe 0.05* 0.05*
Total Toe = 0.1* Steer Ahead = 0.00
Thinking I could do better, I purchased and installed the Camburg UCAs with the MOOG ball joints. Got it back from a respected local tire store this morning and this is how it sits now:
Before Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.4* -0.2*
Caster 4.0* 1.8*
Toe 0.07* -0.16*

After Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.4* -0.2*
Caster 1.2* 2.1*
Toe 0.06* 0.07*

The caster leaves me quite disappointed as I was told that Camburg would add 2 to 2.5 degrees additional caster. When I dropped off the Runner this morning I asked to make a note of setting to the maximum caster possible. The before specs are all in the green for the driver, but afterward the caster is very low and out of spec?!? This is supposed to be one of the better places in town and have to make an appointment at least a week out to get in. I left my spare tire with them to put on an appropriately sized tire, so I will have to go back at some point. I am justified in thinking that they could do a better job on the alignment. On the after specs everything expect the caster is within spec, seems like there is some adjustability left? Is there something else I'm missing on why it seems so hard to achieve a higher caster?
 
you need to find a shop that has a clue, specifically one that specializes in off road vehicles. I have better specs with OEM arms. reach out to [MENTION=99235]Scott@Hightech[/MENTION]
 
Last edited:
Looking at the change in numbers from what is posted, it appears the tech only adjusted 2 of the 4 LCA cams. Most likely, the tech didn't want to bother with adjusting the rear LCA bolts because it adversely affects the specs.

Another option, if you're mechanically inclined, is to adjust the cam bolts so that they are maxed out before you go to your appointment. This is assuming you are not more than a few minutes drive to the shop because it will/should be a squirrely drive there.
 
team_gforce said:
After 2 attempts by 2 different shops, I still feel a little disappointed in my alignment specs. I feel as though I should be getting much better numbers but am by no means an expert in geometry and alignment. So here is the story:

Step 1: Install Toytec 2.5 Boss kit. Net lift in the front is about 2.5" as measured from the center of the wheel.
Step 2: Install 285/70/17 Toyo OC AT2's on factory Trail wheels.
Step 3: Alignment done by Nissan dealership. (I know, i know, but this was the only place i could find a full set of the exact tire I wanted. Sept/Oct is not the best time of year to shop for tires in Alaska).
Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.2* 0.1*
Caster 1.5* 0.9*
Toe 0.05* 0.05*
Total Toe = 0.1* Steer Ahead = 0.00
Thinking I could do better, I purchased and installed the Camburg UCAs with the MOOG ball joints. Got it back from a respected local tire store this morning and this is how it sits now:
Before Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.4* -0.2*
Caster 4.0* 1.8*
Toe 0.07* -0.16*

After Specs: Driver Passenger
Camber 0.4* -0.2*
Caster 1.2* 2.1*
Toe 0.06* 0.07*

The caster leaves me quite disappointed as I was told that Camburg would add 2 to 2.5 degrees additional caster. When I dropped off the Runner this morning I asked to make a note of setting to the maximum caster possible. The before specs are all in the green for the driver, but afterward the caster is very low and out of spec?!? This is supposed to be one of the better places in town and have to make an appointment at least a week out to get in. I left my spare tire with them to put on an appropriately sized tire, so I will have to go back at some point. I am justified in thinking that they could do a better job on the alignment. On the after specs everything expect the caster is within spec, seems like there is some adjustability left? Is there something else I'm missing on why it seems so hard to achieve a higher caster?
Click to expand...

I'm kinda in the same boat after my lift, but I'm even more curious after reading your numbers. It looks like they backed off caster from when you brought it in after installing the UCA's. The shop I took it to showed 2.0-4.1* as the acceptable variance for Caster, and mine is set at 3.0*/3.3*. I'm in a bit of a quandary because my driver's side doesn't rub at all, but the passenger side rubs badly on the body mount at full lock. I want to have the shop adjust it, but I'm kinda nervous that 1* won't make that much of a difference. However I'm running 17x9 -12mm offset wheels. With your caster #'s being out of spec based on what my shop showed me, could it possible be that they are 1.2*/2.1* above a baseline of 2* or something like that?
 
ST1FLER said:
reach out to [MENTION=99235]Scott@Hightech[/MENTION]
Click to expand...

Thank you sir, PM'd Scott. Going to have a chat with the alignment tech. I dont feel as if I have given something that is impossible to deal with. I mean if you are going to change my radio station and crank up the volume while moving it out of the shop bay, least you could do is to correctly do the work I asked for in the first place :drummer:

At least they got the steering wheel straight...
 
4Rager said:
It looks like they backed off caster from when you brought it in after installing the UCA's.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY! I think that's what has me so frustrated right now. Drivers side was all in the greens on the incoming specs. The after specs show they dialed it down by 2.8*? It its all in the green to start with, why futz with anything?
 
You're not alone. There's no way the Camburg arms I purchased have an additional 2° built in. Actually, one side might have 2° built in but the other side no way. As mine sits both sides have about 2.5° of caster. One side is maxed out but the other side can get close to 4° on caster with camber still in spec. Funny thing is, my 5th gen with low caster drives better than my 4th gen with over 4° of caster.

OP- I'm not exactly sure why the shop couldn't keep the 4° of caster but I'm willing to bet it was similar to mine. Hard to tell because it looks like they didn't touch the passenger side at all. How does it drive?
 
Many of these trucks are off on one side. My drivers side has been easy with all the LCAs I have had. Passenger has been a PITA. I've had stock, camburg, and now TC uniballs. The TCs gave me a bit more caster but not that much.

It drove fine with the camburgs but I could never get the caster above 2.5 or 3 (always limited by the passenger side). It was terrible with the stock UCAs. Think I'm at about 3.5 now. It drives fine still. The TCs uniballs tuck the upper ball in a little more allowing for a bit more adjustment without going into positive camber.

I would look for a tech who is willing to spend some time with it. They are really hard to find. Start with the more difficult side. Get the rear cam all the way out and the front cam all the way in. Adjust it out until camber is acceptable. Match the other side and move on.
 
Ducmonsta said:
Looking at the change in numbers from what is posted, it appears the tech only adjusted 2 of the 4 LCA cams. Most likely, the tech didn't want to bother with adjusting the rear LCA bolts because it adversely affects the specs.

Another option, if you're mechanically inclined, is to adjust the cam bolts so that they are maxed out before you go to your appointment. This is assuming you are not more than a few minutes drive to the shop because it will/should be a squirrely drive there.
Click to expand...

I did all the lift/UCA install myself, so I could probably handle the cam adjustment. Just to clarify, when you say rear bolts are you referring to both bolts on the rear arm of the "A" or the rearward facing bolts on each leg of the "A"? And by "max them out" do you mean turning them toward the outside of the vehicle or toward the center of the truck?

Thanks for all the replies guys. I talked with tech who did the work. Basically he said the actual caster number is irrelevant as long as the driver is 1 degree less than the passenger. I agree with half the statement, but still think someone could spend some more time on the adjustments. His claim is that he couldn't increase caster without pulling negative camber, "no matter how much he turned the cam bolts"

With a set-up virtually the same as most lifted Runners on the forum, just thinking that 1.2* and 2.1* seems so much lower than everyone else? At this point i would be happy with the factory minimum, though I havent gotten the chance to drive it on the highway yet.
 
team_gforce said:
I did all the lift/UCA install myself, so I could probably handle the cam adjustment. Just to clarify, when you say rear bolts are you referring to both bolts on the rear arm of the "A" or the rearward facing bolts on each leg of the "A"? And by "max them out" do you mean turning them toward the outside of the vehicle or toward the center of the truck?

Thanks for all the replies guys. I talked with tech who did the work. Basically he said the actual caster number is irrelevant as long as the driver is 1 degree less than the passenger. I agree with half the statement, but still think someone could spend some more time on the adjustments. His claim is that he couldn't increase caster without pulling negative camber, "no matter how much he turned the cam bolts"

With a set-up virtually the same as most lifted Runners on the forum, just thinking that 1.2* and 2.1* seems so much lower than everyone else? At this point i would be happy with the factory minimum, though I havent gotten the chance to drive it on the highway yet.
Click to expand...

The tech doesn't know what he's talking about; you will probably be better off going somewhere else.

Each lower control arm has 2 eccentric adjusters, 1 at the front, 1 at the back. Adjust the ones at the back of each LCA so that the bolt is furthest outboard of the vehicle. This pushes the lower ball joint forward, increasing caster.

Couldn't find a good picture, this is one of the front bolt, but they look similar. This one is at about 1 o'clock, you want it to be at 3 o'clock.
PICT1753.JPG
 
Last edited:
team_gforce said:
Basically he said the actual caster number is irrelevant as long as the driver is 1 degree less than the passenger. I agree with half the statement, but still think someone could spend some more time on the adjustments. His claim is that he couldn't increase caster without pulling negative camber, "no matter how much he turned the cam bolts"
Click to expand...

He's obviously wrong about the numbers being irrelevant. Also....Normally... increasing the caster will throw the camber positive.. (maybe he just stated it wrong...)

Has you truck ever been wheeled hard....?
 
wfo9 said:
He's obviously wrong about the numbers being irrelevant. Also....Normally... increasing the caster will throw the camber positive.. (maybe he just stated it wrong...)

Has you truck ever been wheeled hard....?
Click to expand...

Runner has 14k miles on it. 13.8k of those are hard pavement. 200 miles or so of dirt road. Havent got the chance to wheel it much yet, let alone wheel it hard. Pot holes and frost heaves during spring break-up are the hardest terrain she's seen so far.
 
team_gforce said:
I did all the lift/UCA install myself, so I could probably handle the cam adjustment. Just to clarify, when you say rear bolts are you referring to both bolts on the rear arm of the "A" or the rearward facing bolts on each leg of the "A"? And by "max them out" do you mean turning them toward the outside of the vehicle or toward the center of the truck?

Thanks for all the replies guys. I talked with tech who did the work. Basically he said the actual caster number is irrelevant as long as the driver is 1 degree less than the passenger. I agree with half the statement, but still think someone could spend some more time on the adjustments. His claim is that he couldn't increase caster without pulling negative camber, "no matter how much he turned the cam bolts"

With a set-up virtually the same as most lifted Runners on the forum, just thinking that 1.2* and 2.1* seems so much lower than everyone else? At this point i would be happy with the factory minimum, though I havent gotten the chance to drive it on the highway yet.
Click to expand...

A 1 degree caster split is a bit much. Usually, I start with maybe a .25° split (lower on the driver side). Some vehicles need a .5° split and you can do some adjustments with camber to also help out with road crown but after that I start looking for other causes if the vehicle is still pulling.

I agree with @wfo9
Start with the difficult side (looks to be your passenger side). Get that as good as you can then adjust the left side to match the right (adjust the left caster .25° lower to start with).

It's ridiculous how hard it is to find an alignment tech that knows what they are doing AND will take the time to get there.
 
Here is a guide on the cams.... If the side they say that has the least caster does not have the rear A-arm cam pushing the arm outboard....(example shown for drivers side rear) they did not do it right. As Jeremmy556 stated. The bolt should be outboard. The high point of the cam should be inboard.
 

Attachments

  • align1.jpg
    align1.jpg
    18.5 KB · Views: 4,289
  • align2.jpg
    align2.jpg
    76.5 KB · Views: 3,437
  • cam.jpg
    cam.jpg
    18.8 KB · Views: 3,440
Last edited:
Crawled under the truck this morning to take a look at the cam bolts.
22fe8d6ad65a024a307bb95ad6b3b87f.jpg


So it looks to me as if the passenger side cam is 180° out of phase (pointed to 3 o'clock rather than the 9 it should be), providing the minimum amount of caster?

Another stupid question. I have yet to install the diff drop spacers. I know this won't affect the alignment per say, but by not installing could it binding the system since the effective width is shortened? If I install the drop kit would it provide some additional free play?
 
Actually, your passenger side cam is on the correct side, the driver's side is on the wrong side.

Don't install the diff drop. It only lowers the diff about 1/4" where it counts, messes up your skid plates and you lose clearance, for no benefit.
 
Yea, looks like the passenger side is at least started in the right direction. Driver side has way more adjustment in it.
 
Depending on where that passenger front cam is, that side may be maxed out. Without seeing it, I'm guessing the tech could get a little more camber and caster out of the passenger front cam. Then that side will be maxed out. Next, adjust the driver side so the angles match the passenger side. The cams won't be in the same positions from side to side. That is similar to how my 5th gen ended up. Camburg may build in 2° extra caster but they only do it to the driver side UCA.
 
Jeremy556 said:
Don't install the diff drop. It only lowers the diff about 1/4" where it counts, messes up your skid plates and you lose clearance, for no benefit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had been on the fence about this one. I read that it doesn't really provide much in actual correction to the CVs and think I actually saw somewhere that it could create a situation in which the pinion becomes starved for lubrication. I'll replace CVs until the cows come home if it means the diff lasts the life of the vehicle. Think I'm just going to through those spacers on the shelf, they may come in handy for something some day.

Now that I have been corrected on the cam positions (thank you by the way), does this mean that I really have reached the maximum amount of caster that can be had on the passenger side? Should the cam bolt on the front of the passenger side be maxed out in the opposite direction?
 
gm350reratliff said:
Camburg may build in 2° extra caster but they only do it to the driver side UCA.
Click to expand...

Can you please state where you got this misinformation from? ALL aftermarket control arms are built to have the same consistency from left to right. The only exception may be from those that are running in a circle track. And even then they would be custom designed for that chassis and possibly even just for a particular track.

And please understand that I am not berating you. I just don't want wrong information spread.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

Total: 339 (members: 2, guests: 337)

Forum statistics

Threads
278,239
Messages
3,553,623
Members
247,908
Latest member
Trdoffroad916

Share this page

Trending content

Back
Top