magazine...clips are what revolvers use for faster loading and used on older rifles like the M1 Springfield 30-06 and I think even the M1 Garand held its rounds in a 'clip'.

both terms have been misused a lot...

How do you come up with the conclusion that he was in the area illegally? Just because he thought the guy was a cop? Just because he thought it might be a cop, doesn't mean he was in the wrong. I've been confronted by cops/rangers/sheriffs many times while off roading and as long as you have the right to be there and/or the right permits/tags, then they are more or less just doing their job and patroling the area looking for those causing problems. When you're fishing on the shore of a lake and you see a ranger or sheriff coming your way...do you get worried that you shouldn't be there? You may have every right to be there...but he's going to make damn sure you have the license that allows you to be fishing.

I don't know the laws in Texas or Colorado...but here in AZ "trails" are considered open unless noted or posted closed. Also, unless the land owner has fencing up or has posted signs that you are entering private property, a restricted area, or a permitted area, you'd be allowed in the area legally (as long as you've satisfied the restriction or permit). If a private property owner wants people to stay out of an area, they post a no trespassing sign....just as the govt does with trust land...as does the BLM.

As I see it/treat it, around here the sign is merely a formality and extra step measure for the owner. I'm not going to go up to a fenced area and just assume I'm allowed in if there's no sign (like an obvious yard with structures). Here in AZ, there is so much open land that just has a 3 wire fence around it's perimeter and you do need to know what type of land it is...which is why signs are posted. Private land owners use the same 3 wire fencing that the govt does, so decifering which is which can only be done with signage and/or knowledge. Trust and BLM land will be posted with signs...as will *most* private property so you know which boundry you've come across in the middle of nowhere.

Many times you can come across these 3 wire fences in the desert and you'll not see any signs of structures or worked land in any direction. Since you're out in the middle of nowhere and it may not be posted, that's when YOU have the responsibility to make an educated decision based on the surroundings and to know where you are and what land lies beyond. An example of this judgement is coming across a 3 wire fence that has one of the panels cut open with a track leading through it. It may not have been open...but it is now. Doesn't mean you now have the right to enter just because the jack*** before you thought he did.

I'm on your side on the subject of irresponsible wheelers...but there are plenty of irresponsible people that wheel on open unrestricted land. I've been to numerous BLM/land use meetings with discussions always ending up at the subject of the "bubbas" (the irresponsible people) and how to thwart their destructive activities while at the same time not have the responsible people lose privaleges.

Only advice I can give the OP is that ultimately it's your responsibility to know if you should be there...based foremost on your local laws, then by common sense.

it all goes back go the basic childhood rule, if it's not yours, don't touch it! I don't even know what the argument has been about here. the op was wrong to begin with. he must be a highschooler or something judging from his complete lack of common sense.

i totally agree with you. we have lots of land that have been closed off because of people destroying the land and the equipment. now i cant get to my favorite hunting spot because people were tearing up the land for no reason. there is a gate there and no motorized vehicles are allowed plus they have done that to more areas. i respect the land because i want to be able to use it. i always 4wheel where it is legal. and i always leave the trails cleaner than before i got there. my 4wheel club is real strict on this and if you get caught once you get warned and the second time your out. and the reason is because i want to be able to go 4wheeling and hunting where its legal to without worrying that my spots aren't going to be blocked off.

I tend to sway on the "If it's not yours, don't touch it" partly because if you are on private land actions like this do make other 4-wheelers look bad. I've done a handful of stupid things but I have since grown up. I leave speed for the track and wheeling for the trail.

Do let us know how it all plays out, I'm interested to see if that was public or private land.

Not sure there really is an "argument". Though I still have to ask like I did in my post above...how do you discern that he was someplace he shouldn't have been and he was "wrong to begin with". Unless there were signs (which the OP says there was not)...or it was a fenced area (which the OP did not mention)...or it was overly obvious by the surroundings that he should not be there...where was the wrong doing?

What's more comical is your opinion that only kids or "high schoolers" lack common sense. There are plenty of full grown adults out there that could put kids to shame in that respect.

I would really like to see evidence of this in a law. Do you have something to show this?

I can tell you that in most states if you are found on private property and you don't have permission to be there, then you can be ticketed for trespassing regardless if there is a sign or not. Sometimes its not possible for a land owner to fence or post signs around their entire property. Its not right of passage even if there is a road through their property. Its up to you to know where you are, not up to the owner to keep you out. Its also why the BLM, Forest service, etc have free maps available at their offices. Its up to you to educate yourself on where you can wheel, not up to them to post signs showing you where you can/can't.

In a lot of cases the land owner may let you, or not care anyway, but its definitely not up to them to keep you out.

I was thinking the same, just because they have access to dump on the property doesn't mean its public use land. When they work on the roads here I allow them to park their trucks on my property at night, doesn't mean I'm ok with someone using my property to go 4wheeling.

I would have asked the guy why he was yelling at me and sorted out any miss understanding right there. - likely pissed off cause you kept running from him.

Hi there this is the Original Poster, anyway an update on the land in question. Upon further inspection I did notice a couple old fence posts with rusted barbed wire laying on the ground. I never attempted another run at the land, even though I pass by it everyday on my way home. A few months after my incident someone did post "No Trespassing" signs and then big road blocks. Then last week I noticed the bulldozers showing up, and it looks like they are preparing it for subdivisions now. Only part of the estimated 40 to 50 acres is being dozed. It's hard to say who owned it before, as it was unused "rough" land for a long time, no houses or structures. My guess is some family owned it as well as all the hundreds of acres that now has homes on it, including mine, and there was a recent sale of the land to a more conscious owner, as I said I saw people wheeling and even dirt bikes for two years. I was nervous cause I was still new at 4Wheeling. I had seen lots of people like me 4Wheeling, this guy was obviously not as I was the only persons out there at the time and he was making a real effort to get to me quick, despite the beating he was giving his truck. Anyway I am the wiser for it now. It is/was an eye opener for a novice off roader. I live in the area and passed by for 2 years always seeing folks out 4 Wheeling and having a good time, never a sign of an upset owner. Then last year when i bought my 4Runner, naturally I was excited to try out my first 4 wheel drive vehicle. I am in the Dallas Fort Worth area and I am in my 30's and have kids, this was going to be my only "stress reliever". I had done searches for trails but everything was at least an hour or two drive, bummer. I do understand and get frustrated with some folks 4Wheeling where they should not, I really thought it was OK. Anyway I hope to get a lot of good miles on and off the road and probably always own a 4Runner or two.


PS the Avatar picture was taken at the same place in question...

Whats even more frustrating foyaboya, is no matter how hard you tried you would never equal the damage those dozers are doing to the land now. I see it all the time around here, not allowed on the land but plow it under afterwards, whats the big deal of us being on it? I understand not wanting anyone driving in your property, but if your going to cut all the trees and dozer it....

Here are some links to the AZ Criminal Trespass Statutes:

Definitions: Format Document
Third Degree: Format Document
Second Degree: Format Document
First Degree: Format Document

Only real text law I can find so far on signage has to do with hunting/trapping: 17-304 - Prohibition by landowner upon hunting; posting; exception

Interesting how alot of answers to this problem (?) seem to revolve around the possesion of a gun.

If it is not your property or you do not have permission to wheel there you are wheeling illegally!

You can’t just drive anywhere you like. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?

Because you don't own it! You didn't get permission form the land owner. If you don't know it is a designated area set aside for off-roading stay off!

I have land. Some of the land I have fenced for a few cows. Other I will build out and other is for sale. People leave trash behind, when the ground is soft it gets rutted. Anything could happen.
How would you feel if somebody drove through your yard, esp. if it was muddy and you left ruts or decided to through your trash out?

About bringing a gun, don't be stupid. You are going to bring a gun to protect yourself at a place you are not supposed to be, there are people here that have no common sense at all!

There is a difference between wondering through somebody's land as opposed to 4 wheeling on it.

Hell, I wish someone would decide to throw my trash out for me.