Hey everyone,

I recently saw "An Inconvenient Truth", a movie/documentary about the realities of global warming. The movie is very educational, shocking, and surprisingly touching and I encourage everyone to watch it.

Anyhow, the movie does reveal an "inconvenient truth"...basically summed up: If we continue to pollute the air at the exponential rate we do today, it'll be less than 100 years before Katrinas, coastal flooding, super high temperatures, unusual weather etc., becomes common place. It's hard to believe because it's "inconvenient" but watch the movie and you will believe it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not an environmentalist or part of the green party or anything...(I did buy a 4runner after all). But after seeing this movie, it really scared me to see what we are doing to our planet and how frighteningly fast we are doing it too. Many might disagree and say global warming is just a theory or that it's a natural cycle or that the movie exaggerates, but I am naturally a VERY skeptical guy and this movie/documentary just does not lie...it does not have to lie. Watch it, you will see what I mean. We see the effects of global warming everywhere. Katrina and consistent record breaking temperatures are some effects. The effects are endless so if you need more, do research or watch the movie.

So finally on to my point/question:
Assuming we agree that global warming is and will be a problem, how do you cope with the fact that you drive an SUV? I do not mean to insult as I too drive a 4runner, but the guilt I feel is really beginning to push me toward a Prius or the like. Although the 4runner does get decent mileage, (within reason) shouldn't we strive to drive more efficient cars if we can? I understand the 4runner is great in terms of practicality, but besides offroading occasionally and towing something, a van seems just as practical. I want to make it clear that I do not want to start an argument. I just hope to hear your thoughts.

Thanks


(I'm not sure if this thread fits under General Discussion, so please move it if it does not.)

Woohoo...100 years!! I will be dead by then! Oh wait, that's a bit selfish of me!

It's kinda strange the past few years...severe weather is now more common than ever...or maybe i am just paranoid. I have not read much on global warming, but i hear that it's a debatable subject.

I have a Corolla to do the dirty work. But, my Corolla does not off-road very well nor does it carry heavy/big stuff.

This topic will be kept here...interesting topic. Let's not get into any major political debate. If it does get out of hand, then i will move this topic to OFF-TOPIC or delete it.

Thanks.

I honestly believe that global warming is at least partially responsible for the changes in weather in the last decade. I've lived in the Chicago suburbs all my life, and I recall summer rain being no big deal as a kid. Hail was few and far between. These days, it seems we hardly ever get rain between March and July without needing a severe thunderstorm watch. Pea size hail is now an annual occurance a few times a year, and this year I saw nickel-size hail for the first time in a long, long time. I agree - global warming is a big deal now and is getting worse over time.

I don't think that hybrid cars are going to do a heck of a lot to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Sure, every little bit of gas we don't burn helps, but you're still running a gasoline engine in a hybrid. On "ozone action days", even lawn mowers are supposed to be bad for the air. And don't get me started on E-85.

I think we've got to look at other sources of fuel to power cars. Getting rid of cars isn't the answer - everything is too spread out in the United States to make public transportation practical for everyone. In the spirit of "The X-Files", I believe there's a conspiracy between organizations like car companies, oil companies, and even the government to keep groundbreaking technologies on the shelf while gasoline is still practical to sell. I'm sure people have been working on alternatives, but they're either too expensive or too hard to distribute right now. If push came to shove and there was a major, major oil crisis, then we'd see something else happen. But until then, I'm afraid we're going to keep burning huge volumes of oil on a daily basis.

global warming is an interesting issue. over the past few years i have taken some time to read up on the issue and have concluded that i have no idea who is right. there are ph.d's who support the theory of global warming, and there are those who scoff at the mere mention of it. when there is no consensus from top scientists, how is a lay person supposed to know?

some may argue that large corporations (and even the u.s. government) have "bought" scientists, charging them with distorting the public opinion and creating doubt. others have said that supporters of the global warming are basing their arguments on spurious cause-and-effect relationships. perhaps both are true, perhaps neither are true.

if, for the sake of discussion, we were to assume that global warming is a real phenomenon, should that translate into a responsibly of being more conscious about conserving fuel? according to an article in newsweek several months back, the major source pollutants that contribute to global warming are not from vehicles, but from the production of power. the article i read stated that the heating and cooling of office buildings absorbed such a substantial amount of power that it was far and away the premier consumer of energy (supposedly the main contributor to global warming). i have also read that automobiles have very advanced emissions controls so that they produce much less pollution than a lawn mower or a weed whacker. if this is the case, than driving an echo over a 4runner will undoubtedly do little to change the volume of pollutants that are entered into the atmosphere. however, supporting legislation (through politicians) and initiatives that are designed to combat the release of harmful pollutants and global warming might better serve the country, and the world in the long run.

there is a whole lot more to this argument than i have time, or room for. i look forward to reading other people's thoughts on the subject.

I am worried. I am also disappointed that more people do not beleive this is an event that will occur if we do not change our ways. One of my former co-workers was such a staunch republican he beleives the party line and tried to convince me that we didn't have any reliable climate data prior to 40 years ago and global warming was a total myth. He has so much more to lose than myself because he has 2 children that will inhert whatever we give them.

Enough of the politics. I know several people who work for Toyota Corporate and they have confirmed Toyota wants to make a hybrid model for every one of thier cars. While hybrid power trains may not be the final answer, at least it is a start. I think we will be going in the right direction, especially once we are forced to make a change.

I drove a hybrid Highlander thanks to my friends and I was really impessed. It had enough torque to satisfy me and my "speed". I cannot wait until Toyota releases a hybrid 4runner. I definitely want to see reaction to a hybrid Tundra that can complete with a detroit diesel. The technology is impressive these days and it just keeps improving.

I hope we have enough time left to make the changes that will keep this planet as beautiful as it is now.

Okay, consider yourself informed that you just opened a can of worms. Fortunately, I believe that the folks who frequent this forum are generally a little bit above the average drone who has access to his mother's computer and AOL connection. One thing about this site is that it tends to attract folks who are a bit more sensible than most.


First of all, it still has yet to be proven that 'Global Warming' actually does exist. Remember that just because it may be hotter now than it was fifty years ago is not indicative of a long-term trend. The Earth tends to go through cycles that take centuries and millennia -- not years or decades. In other words, it is possible to have a 100-year warming period inside of a 10,000-year ice age. For those old enough to remember, harken back to the mid-1970s when everybody "in the know" was claiming that our farmland would turn into tundra because we were definitely coming into another ice age.

I lived in upstate NY at the time, and I remember how one winter ('77 or '78) was so cold that the Hudson River actually froze enough that snowmobiles could go on parts of it. We had a few days off school because it was so cold that the buses would not start. We had some snow in the middle of May and it was pretty bizarre, to say the least. However, the following summer was one of the hottest on record and it hit 100 degrees in some places - as well as being rather humid. Kind of made everyone forget about ice age, though!

Second, even if global warming is indeed proven to be true and acknowledged as gospel......we still have the problem of a cause and effect relationship. There are many other factors which affect our climate - other than driving SUVs or turning on air conditioners. What about solar activity? The sun does not just sit there at one constant temperature, you know. It goes through phases. The orbit of the Earth varies slightly as well. Then there are certain things within our planet that might affect the climate.

What about volcanic activity? What about geothermal changes? What about oceanic activity? What about barometric pressue? Storms? Earthquakes? Man cannot certainly be totally to blame for these things - especially since we know that the most severe climatic changes occurred long before we drove SUVs or had A/C units in our homes.

The 'cause and effect' issue is going to be sticky wicket for any thinking person who uses rational logic to understand the situation. My dog barks in the morning before dawn and then the sun comes up. Does this mean that his barking makes the day begin for everyone? Well, the dog might think so! {Ah, the old "cause and effect" problem again.}

Mankind on the Earth might simply be akin to ants walking on the surface of a basketball. Certainly noticeable, but do they (we) really have that much of an effect?

I do eventually plan to see Algore's movie and will do so with an open mind.....but remember that you are viewing a guy who thinks that the internal combustion engine is more dangerous than nuclear weapons. These anti-capitalist (except for themselves) people often have a socialist agenda in their hearts and tend to favor anything that harms the USA, its private citizens or our overall happiness. If a clean environment were truly their goal, why are they not focusing their efforts on the nations of the world who truly are the dirtiest?

Just remember back to the old CFC debacle from the early part of the 1990s. Freon (R-12) and other CFCs were declared evil, dangerous and destructive. We were forced to switch to HFCs, which were not supposed to eat a hole in the ozone layer (another hoax). The ban on CFCs only applied to North America and Western Europe, though. They still pump it out ad infinitum in Africa, China, Russia, Mexico and South America. If they were so bad, why not ban it everywhere? Could it have to do with money and the fact that DuPont's patent was due to expire? No, of course not.
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After all that was said and done, the amount of CFCs from man-made sources was still less than four percent. Volcanic eruptions and emissions from the oceans still constituted the vast majority of CFCs spewing into the atmosphere.

Okay, so that is the end of my rant. Just follow the money and hold onto your wallet. While wise stewardship of the planet is a laudable goal and I want to leave things in better shape for our kids, I fear we might have a solution in search of a problem here. I predict this will be a very long thread, and I expect everybody to be on their best behavior.



P.S. I use my Sentra for most commuting duties, so the 4Runner has less chance to kill the planet.

Jeff, seriously, this statement is a little far out.

"Ants on a Basketball" have never split an atom to release the energy of a nuclear reaction and have enough power to destroy the "basketball" or make it uninhabitable for decades.

Man does make an effect on this planet no matter how you look at it. We have the power to destroy it and possibly to fix it.

Ahh yes the old Global Warming debate. I've had discussions about this with coworkers and I've heard both sides of the debate. I have to warn you that I am a skeptic on global warming and I believe we are in just a warming trend rather than the Earth spinning out of control.

Scientist have said we are going through one of the hottest times in years. But can they say definitively how hot it was 500 years ago? How about 1000 years ago? No they can't. All they can do is "estimate" how hot it was through ice/soil samples. The reason they cannot tell you definitively how hot it was more than 400 hundred years ago is because no one documented temperatures till the industrial revolution about 400 years ago.

The Earth has existed for millions of years now and we have only been looking at the temperatures for the last couple hundred years. With this infintesimal amount of data, we think we can predict what will happen in the next 100 years? Hell, the weathermen can't even predict if it'll be raining next week, what makes us think we know what will be going next year or a decade. Also it is debatable if the "extreme" weather over the couple years can be contributed to Global Warming. Can we blame El Nino on Global Warming or is it just a natural occurence?

I now own a motorcycle that gets about 40+ MPG and I've been using it every chance I get. Of course I can't drive it year round since Virginia has 4 real seasons but I figure it is contributing somewhat. Also I take the HOV lane when on the bike so it is also removing at least one vehicle from traffic congestion on the regular highways.

This is always a good debate and I'd like to see some new viewpoints.

Hybrid vehicles are all the rage these days. It does my heart good to see people buying them and that more research is being done. However, I still cannot help but wonder about the long-term usage of them.

What about the batteries? They are very costly to replace (although that cost has diminished somewhat as technology and economies of scale come into play) and there is an environmental consideration as well. Old batteries contain lots of lead, mercury and other harmful chemicals.

It seems minor in the grand scheme of things, but it seems as though there really is no such thing as a free lunch (to use an old cliche' once again).

Also, a hybrid still uses fossil fuels. Gasoline is still going to be an important part of our country for the foreseeable future. It'd be nice to run all of our engines on hyrdogen or ethanol, but I don't see that happening for quite awhile.

Besides, we do have an abundant supply of energy in our country -- but it may not be cost-effective to harvest it right now. The primary problem, even if we had a limitless supply of crude oil, is that we lack the ability to refine it. From what I have heard, the last refinery to be built was in 1976; although a few of the existing ones have been renovated since then.

With stagnant supplies and growing demand, the market price of petroleum is surely going to increase.


If environmental issues are not enough to make the country consider alternative fuels, high prices may end up doing it. Market-based factors often do more to encourage innovation than dictatorial fiat or some kind of social obligation. Not trying to be harsh, but that is just the way it is.

Better inform China and India, they are producing the majority of green house gasses with their 1910-era level pollution.

In these countries smog, ozone and catalytic converters are unheard of, plus the coal being burned by these countries unregulated produces more toxins and gasses than all of N. America combined.

While it is admirable for you to feel a desire to help, your efforts will be greatly overshadowed by the belching of China and India.

Why not just ride a horse? But then they say the methane being produced by our millions of cattle and horses is going to kill us also.

I have seen the movie, with my two kids 9 & 13 yrs and my wife. We came away seriously thinking about the issues. I am not too convinced by the data presented in the movie, and remain very sceptical.

There has been a tone of stuff written over the net in the past few weeks since the movie that contradicts the movie's (Gore's) position.

I think we all probably need to do more to make the companies who produce our fuels and make our cars to become far more environmental. "Think Global, Act Local", is a pretty good mantra.

Comments like this are typical of what will always happen - blame someone else, see the problem as too big, and do nothing.

I lived in China (Hong Kong) for eight years. In the rush (past 10years) to become part of the western global market, China is making rapid progress. Don't forget that a lot of what is happening there, good and bad, is a result of western influence. We need to encourage further progress in improving technologies in these developing (sic) nations to keep the planet a sustainable place for the future generations. Many of the companies "belching" in China and India, are doing so for US and other western markets. Be informed about which companies and write them.

Of course we know that most of us won't write, won't become more informed, won't act locally.....because we don't feel we will have a significant effect (or just can't be bothered).

Just like how few people on this board subscribe to an action group trying to keep trails open for offroading, groups protecting our oceans, groups calling for the rights of children....

Don't feel helpless...don't feel overshadowed...act as best you can, no matter how small (sic) your contribution is.

Back to global warming specifically, no matter whether you believe it or not, reducing pollution so we can all breath better has got to be a good thing....yes????

Not sure I agree with that. Climate scientists around the world are pretty much agreed now that the planet is the warmest it's been for 400-500 years and, moreover, that it has warmed faster in the last 50 years than at any other time. Another fact is that CO2 levels have risen faster in the last 50 years than over the last few thousand, and are now the highest they've been since the last ice age by a long way (ice core samples pretty much prove that). Linking those two very definite trends is a theory, for sure, but one backed by a considerable amount of hard science.

Those are the facts. The speculation then begins. No-one knows how higher CO2 levels and the rapid recent warming will affect the planet in the longer term. There are many theories, but the climate is so complex than even the supercomputers used by various government meterological departments around the world cannot reliaby predict current weather, let alone how the climate might change. Add the complicating factor that weather patterns around the world tend to go in cycles of many decades, and it's all a big unknown. It's certainly too early to say that higher CO2 levels and higher global temperatures will affect climate a certain way.

In that respect I think exercising caution and doing more research is the best course of action for governments. Sadly some governments are doing neither. However, on the other end of the spectrum I think the doomsayers are getting a little ahead of themselves. The atmosphere's a hellishly complex body (As I learned with my chemistry thesis). It's simplistic to say higher CO2 levels are going to roast us unless we do something about them.

And no, I haven't seen the Al Gore documentary. I have no intention of seeing it -- he's deathly-dull and I don't need convincing about the science.

Anyway, I'm doing my bit. My 4runner gets better mileage than my old Jeep. I plant lots of trees when I can to make myself at least a little more carbon neutral. I bike around the city instead of driving, saving a lot of gas. And I don't drive around towing a jet-ski with a "Keep Tahoe Blue" sticker on my bumper. That really irks me!

So if you're worried, plant trees and buy a bike. Otherwise get on with your life as if nothing evern happened, just like most people do!

The planet will either finish us off in the next few hundred years or sort itself out. It's been through worse in its multi-billion year life than a few millennia of selfish modern civilization. Right now it's probably hailing the nearest asteroid to come obliterate us.

... and another thing that really irks me is how car companies have hijacked hybrid technology and moved it away from its original goal - to save gas.

I recently read a review of the Honda Accord hybrid that said the regular V6 actually got the same gas mileage as the hybrid. In other words, the hybrid engine was merely providing additional torque. Now we have GM dropping hybrid engines in pickups with virtually no improvement in mileage. What's the point?

Car companies can probably improve mileage of regular gasoline engines by 50% without much problem. They don't because the cars will cost more and there's a constant price war in the US. So now they're all jumping on the hybrid bandwagon instead, because apparently people will happily pay a premium for hybrid engines whether they do much to improve gas mileage or not.

Frankly, putting a hybrid engine in a 4runner would be laughable. It would get maybe 10-15% better mileage (and that's optimistic if the Camry's anything to go by) and you'd have resale problems down the road when the batteries need replacing. Drop in a modern, low-emission European diesel or LPG engine and you'd get far better mileage figures plus a truck with far better low-end torque.

OK, rant over!

Documentaries like that have an equal purpose as any other motion picture film you watch... to make you leave the theatre feeling a certain way. Nothing separates the way a director will make you believe the world is coming to an end from 'we all live in the matrix'. the most noteable of these being chick flicks which make you walk out wondering if that's how a realtionship is supposed to be. That being said..

-- you must take everything with a huge bucket of salt --

automobiles still produce less than half the worlds pollution. Cars will forever burn way cleaner than any oil burning factory.

-- you must have faith in mankind --

our dependency on oil is a top issue with the world right now and companies have been working for decades prior for these days. I'm confident we'll one day be able to harness the nuclear power in the palms of our hands or something of the sort. Haven't you seen disney's the blob with robin williams? oh wait.. another movie to make you feel a certain way ;)

The most important steps we have right now is to protect the worlds oxygen creating forests. we -must- protect the rain forests - this is one of the most important things to me. Use recycled/synthetic papers until we create our own photosynthesis plants that pump out oxygen at alarming rates to put the whole planet on a 'high'.

sit tight, work hard, reduce reuse recycle. You're not gonna change the world yourself, neither will taking 300,000 4runners off the road. The changes we need are far greater and the innovation of mankind moves millions of times faster now than it ever did before. The day oil costs us more than an alternative energy source is the day this all spins around (somewhere around 7-8$/gallon i think.. )

I'd like to have one of those "Mr. Fusion" things from Back To The Future. Now that would be a cool way to power your car -- throw some trash into a plastic tube.


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