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View Poll Results: Is the US Economy Improving?
Yes 10 38.46%
Yes
10 38.46%
No 12 46.15%
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12 46.15%
Collapse Imminent 4 15.38%
Collapse Imminent
4 15.38%
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:01 AM #1
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Question Is the US Economy Improving?

Well what do you guys think? I think were in for a double dip at best and we will go down to the second half of the W in the next 6 months after an abysmal Christmas season.

Edit: If you vote, please give a quick run down of why.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:22 AM #2
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I think we've leveled out but in some parts of the country might see a small dip but Colorado is doing alright and home sales have even picked up by 2% around here but were going to stay flatlined overall for a while longer but I don't see things going into a collapse.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:28 AM #3
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Of course the economy is improving. I'm surprised someone would even create a poll for something that can be factually proven.

Anyone who votes "no" should do a little research on current economic indicators and learn something.

Now if you poll asked "Will the economy improve in 2010 over it's current state", then THAT would be an appropriate question for a poll. But to ask if the economy is improving right now isn't even questionable. It is and it can be proven with nothing more than a little research.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:30 AM #4
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Monday, October 12, 2009
By MAE ANDERSON
AP Business Writer

NEW YORK (AP) More than 80 percent of economists believe the recession is over and an expansion has begun, but they expect the recovery will be slow as worries over unemployment and high federal debt persist.

That consensus comes from leading forecasters in a survey by the National Association for Business Economics released Monday.

''The survey found that the vast majority of business economists believe that the recession has ended but that the economic recovery is likely to be more moderate than those typically experienced following steep declines,'' said NABE President-elect Lynn Reaser, chief economist at Point Loma Nazarene University.


Source: http://www.wcbs880.com/topic/ap_news...onomicRecovery
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:10 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyTech99 View Post
Of course the economy is improving. I'm surprised someone would even create a poll for something that can be factually proven.

Anyone who votes "no" should do a little research on current economic indicators and learn something.

Now if you poll asked "Will the economy improve in 2010 over it's current state", then THAT would be an appropriate question for a poll. But to ask if the economy is improving right now isn't even questionable. It is and it can be proven with nothing more than a little research.
Its easy to dismiss ones views out of hand without backing up your opinions. Ill list what Im going off of and try to ref as much as possible. Could you do the same? Ive been doing some research and I dont see how its improving at all? What do you base improvment on? Be specific please. Here we go...

-State tax receipts are cratering, does that signify a recovery? Ref
-USDX is down 15% since March, that is 30% annualized. This is a big deal.
-Consumer credit is contracting at an annualized rate of about 19%, loans to businesses are down 28% annualized.ref
-Stock market trading @ 140 times earnings! That isnt a recovery thats big money speculation. Ref
-Retail is contracting. Have you seen the fleets of idle ship floating around? World trade is coming to a halt. Ref
Ref
Ref
-Unemployment is not only getting worse, it is much worse than reported. There are so many adjustments it isnt even realistic. Jobs are not being lost they are being destroyed and wont be coming back. Sure U3 is "only" 9.8%, but look at U6 which is coming up on 17% (U6 is how they measured during the Depression). Ill reference the govt stats so you cant say Im looking at some right wing nut job numbers. BLS Ref
Karl Denninger says it better than me so Ill quote his Market Ticker blog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Denninger
YOUCH.

Headlines: 263,000 "jobs lost" and unemployment rate up to 9.8%.

That's not good - there goes the "second derivative" argument.

Weekly earnings are also down by $1.54, which is bad news too.

But the Household Data is VASTLY worse than reported. Here are the month-over-month changes, and they're in the realm of frightening. (all numbers in thousands)

Civilian Labor Force: 154,879 to 153,617 this month.

Employed: 140,074 down to 139,079 this month.

That's a loss of 995,000 jobs, not 263,000, and the labor force contracted by 1,262,000 people!

The participation rate was absolutely decimated, down 0.6% this last month alone. The people "not in the labor force" rose by a staggering 1,516,000 in the last month.

The government doesn't count people as "unemployed" who have given up and exited the labor force, but as I have repeatedly noted whether the government counts them or not the corner store owner sure as hell does!

The fact of the matter is that nearly 1 million fewer people were working in September as compared to August; there has been absolutely no improvement in that trend whatsoever.
I gotta get some work done so Ill check back in a bit.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:20 AM #6
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Is 2009 the new 1929?

I find this graph and associated commentary quite interesting and hope you will too, especially when people are calling the recovery because the DOW is almost 10K. At 10K it would be a 50% retrace of the losses which happened in the early 30's right before it all dropped 89% from the highs. In the late 20's total debt in the US was about 250% of GDP, now its about 375% of GDP.
The comments are in chronological order according to the chart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Seymour

1.

"We will not have any more crashes in our time."
- John Maynard Keynes in 1927 [NB: The authenticity of this one is a little suspect]

2.

"I cannot help but raise a dissenting voice to statements that we are living in a fool's paradise, and that prosperity in this country must necessarily diminish and recede in the near future."
- E. H. H. Simmons, President, New York Stock Exchange, January 12, 1928

"There will be no interruption of our permanent prosperity."
- Myron E. Forbes, President, Pierce Arrow Motor Car Co., January 12, 1928

3.

"No Congress of the United States ever assembled, on surveying the state of the Union, has met with a more pleasing prospect than that which appears at the present time. In the domestic field there is tranquility and contentment...and the highest record of years of prosperity. In the foreign field there is peace, the goodwill which comes from mutual understanding."
- Calvin Coolidge December 4, 1928

4.

"There may be a recession in stock prices, but not anything in the nature of a crash."
- Irving Fisher, leading U.S. economist, New York Times, Sept. 5, 1929

5.

"Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau. I do not feel there will be soon if ever a 50 or 60 point break from present levels, such as (bears) have predicted. I expect to see the stock market a good deal higher within a few months."
- Irving Fisher, Ph.D. in economics, Oct. 17, 1929

"This crash is not going to have much effect on business."
- Arthur Reynolds, Chairman of Continental Illinois Bank of Chicago, October 24, 1929

"There will be no repetition of the break of yesterday... I have no fear of another comparable decline."
- Arthur W. Loasby (President of the Equitable Trust Company), quoted in NYT, Friday, October 25, 1929

"We feel that fundamentally Wall Street is sound, and that for people who can afford to pay for them outright, good stocks are cheap at these prices."
- Goodbody and Company market-letter quoted in The New York Times, Friday, October 25, 1929

6.

"This is the time to buy stocks. This is the time to recall the words of the late J. P. Morgan... that any man who is bearish on America will go broke. Within a few days there is likely to be a bear panic rather than a bull panic. Many of the low prices as a result of this hysterical selling are not likely to be reached again in many years."
- R. W. McNeel, market analyst, as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune, October 30, 1929

"Buying of sound, seasoned issues now will not be regretted"
- E. A. Pearce market letter quoted in the New York Herald Tribune, October 30, 1929

"Some pretty intelligent people are now buying stocks... Unless we are to have a panic -- which no one seriously believes, stocks have hit bottom."
- R. W. McNeal, financial analyst in October 1929

7.

"The decline is in paper values, not in tangible goods and services...America is now in the eighth year of prosperity as commercially defined. The former great periods of prosperity in America averaged eleven years. On this basis we now have three more years to go before the tailspin."
- Stuart Chase (American economist and author), NY Herald Tribune, November 1, 1929

"Hysteria has now disappeared from Wall Street."
- The Times of London, November 2, 1929

"The Wall Street crash doesn't mean that there will be any general or serious business depression... For six years American business has been diverting a substantial part of its attention, its energies and its resources on the speculative game... Now that irrelevant, alien and hazardous adventure is over. Business has come home again, back to its job, providentially unscathed, sound in wind and limb, financially stronger than ever before."
- Business Week, November 2, 1929

"...despite its severity, we believe that the slump in stock prices will prove an intermediate movement and not the precursor of a business depression such as would entail prolonged further liquidation..."
- Harvard Economic Society (HES), November 2, 1929

8.

"... a serious depression seems improbable; [we expect] recovery of business next spring, with further improvement in the fall."
- HES, November 10, 1929

"The end of the decline of the Stock Market will probably not be long, only a few more days at most."
- Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics at Yale University, November 14, 1929

"In most of the cities and towns of this country, this Wall Street panic will have no effect."
- Paul Block (President of the Block newspaper chain), editorial, November 15, 1929

"Financial storm definitely passed."
- Bernard Baruch, cablegram to Winston Churchill, November 15, 1929

9.

"I see nothing in the present situation that is either menacing or warrants pessimism... I have every confidence that there will be a revival of activity in the spring, and that during this coming year the country will make steady progress."
- Andrew W. Mellon, U.S. Secretary of the Treasury December 31, 1929

"I am convinced that through these measures we have reestablished confidence."
- Herbert Hoover, December 1929

"[1930 will be] a splendid employment year."
- U.S. Dept. of Labor, New Year's Forecast, December 1929

10.

"For the immediate future, at least, the outlook (stocks) is bright."
- Irving Fisher, Ph.D. in Economics, in early 1930

11.

"...there are indications that the severest phase of the recession is over..."
- Harvard Economic Society (HES) Jan 18, 1930

12.

"There is nothing in the situation to be disturbed about."
- Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon, Feb 1930

13.

"The spring of 1930 marks the end of a period of grave concern...American business is steadily coming back to a normal level of prosperity."
- Julius Barnes, head of Hoover's National Business Survey Conference, Mar 16, 1930

"... the outlook continues favorable..."
- HES Mar 29, 1930

14.

"... the outlook is favorable..."
- HES Apr 19, 1930

15.

"While the crash only took place six months ago, I am convinced we have now passed through the worst -- and with continued unity of effort we shall rapidly recover. There has been no significant bank or industrial failure. That danger, too, is safely behind us."
- Herbert Hoover, President of the United States, May 1, 1930

"...by May or June the spring recovery forecast in our letters of last December and November should clearly be apparent..."
- HES May 17, 1930

"Gentleman, you have come sixty days too late. The depression is over."
- Herbert Hoover, responding to a delegation requesting a public works program to help speed the recovery, June 1930

16.

"... irregular and conflicting movements of business should soon give way to a sustained recovery..."
- HES June 28, 1930

17.

"... the present depression has about spent its force..."
- HES, Aug 30, 1930

18.

"We are now near the end of the declining phase of the depression."
- HES Nov 15, 1930

19.

"Stabilization at [present] levels is clearly possible."
- HES Oct 31, 1931

20.

"All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed... and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S."
- President F.D. Roosevelt, 1933

Colin J. Seymour, June 2001
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking
20 June 2001
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:37 PM #7
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GMZ, I thought your last two posts were very good, something to think about. I do hear some forecasts that this is a major shift and 15 to 20 years to get back to where we were. I really like the graph of the great depression. My parents were both born in 1924, my dad flew a B-24 in WWII. they gave me all these stories about saving money and how tough it was during the Great Depression. It seems easy to dismiss thier stories and how they act about money, but I think we are starting to realize that people from that generation have a few good points to make.

I just hope we learn from this down turn.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:05 PM #8
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Good discussion. I enjoy reading these things, even though i am not very knowledgeable in the area.

Thanks guys...keep up the civil discussions.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:13 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai View Post
Good discussion. I enjoy reading these things, even though i am not very knowledgeable in the area.

Thanks guys...keep up the civil discussions.
I agree it is a good discussion and it is civil. The truth is no one knows. If we do go down a bit more, a lot more of the housing market would take a HUGE drop. The truth is, no one knows. I have being through quite a few recissions and it always looks the darkest at the end of the down turn. Now where that is, that is a good question. The housing market is up a bit here in Atlanta.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:25 PM #10
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I also think its a good discussion, and have enjoyed learning all that I have in the past couple years about economics. I have some data on housing that I will get into when I get home from work that should prove to be interesting to the discussion at hand, its not too good Im afraid.

Grabbing some data be back soon...
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Old 10-13-2009, 05:24 PM #11
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Boy o boy, where do I start with the housing market? I have yet to see a broad based improvement. Sure enough house prices have increased in some areas, but does that alone signal a recovery in housing? As with C4C the $8K tax credit is mostly being used to pull forward demand or worse yet entice people to buy homes by monetizing the tax credit as a down payment. Also, with not only unemployment increasing but wages and hours worked decreasing(Ref), it is a near certainty that NODs and foreclosures will rise.

-The single biggest thing that will bring down the housing market again will be the resets in the ALT-A and Option-ARM ("pick a payment") loan sector. 50% of these mortgages are underwater already. If you look at this image (green, yellow, and light blue) you can see that compared to subprime these sectors are orders of magnitude larger, and once you add that to an already FUBAR economy I dont think I have to go too far into explaining how this will play out. Subprime was only a small sliver and look at what kind of mess it caused. I think that things will inch up into the prime mortgage market as prime borrowers lose more jobs and have more defaults. This is only for residential real estate, commercial RE is twice as big a market and in even worse shape. Good read here

Graph was collated using Fannie/Freddy/Ginnie data credit Business Insider

-Cure rates are getting worse, even after modding more and more people are re defaulting Ref
-The FHA report for August shows foreclosures are up 1.5%, to a total of 22%. Thats 1 in 5 in default! And FHA insures 25% of the mortgages in the US.
-FHA might need a bailout Ref Ref Ref

Can you find where C4C was?


So I guess what Im saying is we are merely in the eye of the hurricane.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:46 PM #12
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I'm not trying to say everything is rosy because it's obviously not. But if you look at economic indicators, it is easy to see we're on an upward trend. Go to bls.gov and search to your heart's content. Sure, anyone can pick out a few areas that don't look too good, but when you sit back and look at the big picture, we're starting to see positive gains in more and more areas.

Gross Domestic Product is probably the #1 indicator of the state of our economy. The stock market is probably second in line.

I've heard too many pessimists say that the dollar will be replaced by the "Amero" (U.S./Canada/Mexico combined currency) and that we will be in a depression that rivals the Great Depression of the 1930's. That will not happen. We will recover, even if it's a slow process. We're already on our way, the numbers don't lie. And this isn't just my opinion, but most economists are also making the same claims. Just read the news, unless you think it's nothing but lies (which is what most cynics claim, BTW).
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:57 PM #13
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Here are some reasons that point to an economic recovery:

1- Housing Market Index is has been rising for the last few months. This basically shows that there is an increased demand for NEW homes.

2- Retailers are starting to report larger profits than even 6 months ago.

3- Interest rates on bonds has been rising.

4- Investors are back to putting money back into the stock market. The Investor Confidence Index is way up over where it was 6 months ago.

5- Banking industry is stabilizing. We're not seeing the collapse of big banks like we did earlier.

6- Durable Goods orders are up about 4%, compared to a decline of about 7% at the beginning of last year.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:59 PM #14
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IMHO, i say "Collapse Imminent" until i see no more "Made in China" products.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:24 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyTech99 View Post
I'm not trying to say everything is rosy because it's obviously not. But if you look at economic indicators, it is easy to see we're on an upward trend. Go to bls.gov and search to your heart's content. Sure, anyone can pick out a few areas that don't look too good, but when you sit back and look at the big picture, we're starting to see positive gains in more and more areas.

Gross Domestic Product is probably the #1 indicator of the state of our economy. The stock market is probably second in line.

I've heard too many pessimists say that the dollar will be replaced by the "Amero" (U.S./Canada/Mexico combined currency) and that we will be in a depression that rivals the Great Depression of the 1930's. That will not happen. We will recover, even if it's a slow process. We're already on our way, the numbers don't lie. And this isn't just my opinion, but most economists are also making the same claims. Just read the news, unless you think it's nothing but lies (which is what most cynics claim, BTW).
I went there and am trying to figure out what indicators you are referring to? Most of the numbers for the last couple months are "preliminary". They arent improving, they are just not getting worse so fast. Its changed from a disorganized rout into an orderly retreat, if you will no thanks to $24 trillion in guarantees made by our govt alone.

The instance that nominal GDP is rising is due to the massive deficit spending by the govt (1.4 trillion) and that is hardly a positive sign of recovery. Thats like drinking another beer to get rid of your hangover. Basically the govt isthe economy right now. Debt is rising too fast measured against GDP, the time is coming that the debt service load (interest payments on the national debt) will amount to a sum equal to the defense budget.

A rising stock market is not really a reliable sign of a recovery either. The P/E ratio is 140! Investors are paying $140 for stocks to earn $1 in earnings, that is way too high (the historical average is high teens or low 20's). And have you looked at the volume of trades? The stocks for BofA, Citi, AIG, FNM, FMC make up a majority of the volume, how does that correspond to a real rise in the stock market and not just program trading by institutional investors? Ref

Where does the Amero come into this? We can leave conspiracies at the door.

I dont think that the USD will be replaced anytime soon, but the primacy and infallibility that the USD once enjoyed has been tarnished by recent events. See China issuing its own sovereign bonds in Yuan, China and BRIC economies establishing payment settlement systems, China buying gold (reserves up 110% in the last few years) and it doesnt take a genius to see that everyone else is trying to not be so bound to/by the USD.

Why do you think that a depression is not possible? Im sure they thought the same thing in the 30's (they did if you read the list up there, they even had a nice bear market rally like we have). I think we are more fragile now than at any time since the Civil War. Reason being our economy is fundamentally weak, much weaker than in the 30's when we had a vibrant manufacturing economy and ran trade surpluses, were a creditor nation, didnt have to rely on imports, etc etc etc. Now we have a consumer/service economy where consumer spending accounts for 70% of GDP. If consumer credit is contracting at nearly 4x the rate that the economists that you trust so much estimate, where is the recovery going to come from?

I dont necessarily think the news is lies, but they do put the "news" or "facts" in a certain light. If anyone think the news is 100% objective they only need to switch between CNN and FOX and compare the coverage and commentary on the same event. Ive been referencing pretty mainstream sources so I dont know why you brought up the Amero and lying media? You can call me a cynic but I take in info from all sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyTech99 View Post
Here are some reasons that point to an economic recovery:

1- Housing Market Index is has been rising for the last few months. This basically shows that there is an increased demand for NEW homes.

2- Retailers are starting to report larger profits than even 6 months ago.

3- Interest rates on bonds has been rising.

4- Investors are back to putting money back into the stock market. The Investor Confidence Index is way up over where it was 6 months ago.

5- Banking industry is stabilizing. We're not seeing the collapse of big banks like we did earlier.

6- Durable Goods orders are up about 4%, compared to a decline of about 7% at the beginning of last year.
1 I can agree with that, but its not an organic growth. The $8K tax credit is done in Nov so we will see how the housing indexes will perform then. Keep in mind the govt is providing massive stimulus with the tax credit and it artificially holding rates as low as possible. This cant go on forever, and when it does stop what will happen?

2 Due in large part to closeouts, and sheer volume as the need to move inventory overcomes the need to turn max profit. Ill give that one to you for now since I dont have the data on hand.

3 They are rising not because of any positive factors, but because of the profligate spending the govt is doing. With all the new issuance the bond holders require more interest for more risk. The spread between short and long term Treasuries is still quite unhealthy. Not to mention all ou creditors ave been shifting their exposure to short term US Debt maturities. Why do you think theyre doing that? The fed has about $6 bil left for its quantitative easing campaign so well see what rates do in the near term.

4 I posted above about the volume of trading and who is most likely doing the trading.

5 The banking industry is no more stable that it was before all this. The FASB rule for mark to market has been suspended allowing the banks to hold loans on their books at full value instead of marking them down to what the market will pay (on average 30% mark down). The banks have also been extending the time it takes to be in default from 90 days to up to 180 days for some banks and they wont foreclose and evict for a year or more! All this so that they will not have to take the loss on the loan and dump more supply into the housing market.

6 Durable goods was no doubt buoyed by C4C, Ill hold judgement on that one.

In my posts I think I included quite a bit of data from housing, auto, finance, stocks, credit so I dont think its fair to say I cherry picked a few bad apples.
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Last edited by GMZ; 10-13-2009 at 07:36 PM.
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its not obama's fault , obama is a fulkin idiot


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