What you said was basically a verbatim Rush Limbaugh quote, so you know, I just had to point it out. If that counts as a personal insult then stop having opinions that match Rush Limbaugh's.

So, if the percentages were similar, could we discriminate against Christians like you want to discriminate against Muslims?

It doesn't matter what the Church condones? The "Mosque" doesn't recognize or condone Islamist terrorist activity any more than the "church" condones Christian terrorist activity. What matters is what's in the books, and what people are likely to find when they go digging for "inspiration" in the dogmatic text they call "knowledge". They get their motivation straight from the pages of the Koran, just like abortion clinic bombers get their motivation straight from the pages of the bible. They think "the church" is leading them astray and that they are the only ones who "really get it, and really understand what has to be done". The mentality is the SAME.

Are you trying to make my point or yours? "They" (peaceful Muslims and Islamic leaders) can't help it if some lunatic tries to align himself with Islam and say he did it for Allah.

So the Muslim equivilant to "The Christian Church" is "Radical Islam"? Again you equate Muslims with Terrorists. PLEASE STOP!!!! Aside from the fact that there is widespread Christian support for abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctor killers, the fact that "the church" denounces it, is beside the point. Islamic leaders also denounce terrorism.

No, radical Christians are recruiting others, just like radical Muslims. So what don't you get?

Sure it does. The bible says that men who die for god are rewarded. The problem is just that you grew up in a predominently Christian society, so it all seems normal to you. You're making my point though, by saying "like 'radical' Islam does". Key word "radical". Radical Christianity is also terrifying, but the fact that there are radical Christians doesn't cause us to deny peace loving Christians their rights.


Honestly, my real problem is with the "reasons" most Americans want to prevent this Mosque from being built, vice the fact that they do. I too would like to prevent new religious buildings from being built, and I would like Islam to be the religion we start with when we start taking away religious freedoms. But I would do it on the basis of them being devisive and mind numbing organizations. Religions, especially Islam, are horrible intellectual cancers, and we should all stop tolerating them, starting with the most intolerant one, Islam. But that's not why people want to prevent the Mosque in NYC from being built. They want to prevent it from being built because they think their religion is the peaceful one, and they don't trust Islam. That just isn't adequate.

You've made strong points, but we disagree on the subject of radical Islam and how large that faction is in the world. You want to separate the terrorists from their religion and make them into people acting individually, but doing it in the name of religion (like abortion bombers). I see it as an entire sect of the religion that hasn't changed in centuries, that teaches hatred and death to the infidel, and they have been trying to eradicate the Jews as well as other races for thousands of years and continue to try to do so now. That is the reason I drew a comparison to Nazis earlier. I guess I should have noted that I was referring to radical Islam and not Muslim Americans, but I honestly thought that was understood in the beginning of this debate.

You may say to me, "If you know that Muslim Americans are different than radical Muslims, why does the mosque bother you?" I'll explain... I think the vast majority of Muslim Americans don't share the terrorists' view on how to deal with the Western world, but the fact that they participate and live in a free country like America, means to me they have branched out from the main religion and made a more tolerant sect that is allowed to enjoy the comforts of living in free countries like ours. Why am I still arguing?..

I am a realist and the fact that these Muslim Americans want to stir the pot of controversy and put their mosque there makes me question them and their motives. And it's offensive because I believe it's meant to be offensive. 2 blocks is just the closest they could get. If they could plop it down right on top of the twin towers site, they probably would.

As much as you may not think I'm capable, I do see your point that Muslims Americans should be able to enjoy the freedom of placing a mosque wherever they want to. If that was your main goal in this, then consider that a success chiplee. However, IMO their choice of location isn't just by chance and I'll stop being offended by it when I get a good explanation of why they want it there. They know it's a touchy subject. I'm arguing what the motive is behind it, not if they have the right to do it. The fact that the president fully supports it as opposed to just not taking a stand either way makes me question him. Why doesn't he think it's such a great idea?

If you are Muslim reading this and love this country as much as I do, I mean no offense and I'm not saying that you're not every bit as patriotic as the next American. But I ask you this: Why do you want to put it right there? If you are just stirring the pot, then that offends me and millions of other Americans. But if you give me a good reason, I may be led to change my mind.

Even if the President thought it was a bad idea, he could not publicly express that thought and keep true to the oath of office to defend the constitution.

I understand your need to know and I'm sure many people feel the same way. But I don't expect answers where an answer is not required. And because it is not required, I hope one is not given.

Ditto, you saved me a lot of typing....

But then again, i would not call RonM a "moderate"....

Did you delete his post?

No...i just assumed that it was a few pages ago?? Why? It's not there anymore?

I could have sworn it was on this page of the thread (page 6) when I read it earlier and then after your post it was gone. My mistake.

Ahhh, i see. I have no idea...you may want to PM him.

No we don't disagree on that. I know there is a frighteningly large percentage of Muslims who support violence in defense of Islam. We disagree about whether that obvious fact constitutes justification for denying Muslims their rights in the United States. The equally obvious truth is that IT DOES NOT!!!

It's not so much that I "want" to do that. It's that that's what you do. You don't declare entire groups of people to be deserving of punishment based on the actions of individual people within that group. If we did that no one would have any freedom at all.

How could it possibly "be understood" when you constantly equate Muslims with terrorists?

I don't just mean Muslim Americans. I mean peaceful Muslims all over the world. The American example is just what fit the conversation best. The best data we have available now suggests that roughly 5% of Muslims think violence is "sometimes justifiable in defense of Islam". I've read and written extensively on the subject, and that number is improving. I strongly believe preventing this Mosque from being built would be a setback to that progress.

I'm a realist, too. The reality of this situation is that religious freedoms are guaranteed to American citizens. The only thing that has made it possible for "them" to stir the pot is the fact that confused Americans stepped up to try to stop them from exercising their rights. Most Americans want their own rights defended, but don't mind stepping all over the rights of others.

Then you should have started the conversation by stating that you were withholding judgment until better information came in about the motivations of the individuals trying to build the Mosque. You came out guns blazing about the stupidity and disrespect of the president.

To my knowledge the president has been basically quiet about it.

Why do you assume every Muslim reading this wants "to put it right there"? Do you think it was a consensus vote where all Muslims got together and decided to really stick it to those Christian Americans? I still contend that being offended by a Mosque means you haven't fully disassociated terrorism from those peaceful Muslims you just said you meant "no offense" to.

I appreciate the concessions you've offered, but I submit to you that we're on the same team with regard to tolerating terrorists. There's just no place in this country (or the world) for denying the rights of entire segments of society on the basis of the actions of individuals or even groups within those segments. Terrorism, wherever it exists, is born of socio-economic factors and desperation. What causes Islam to produce more terrorists is simply that the Islamic regions of the world happen to also be the less affluent regions of the world. They would just as happily use the bible to justify their violence if that happened to be their religion. Objecting to the building of a Mosque in response to Islamic terrorist activity is exactly like objecting to the building of a Church in response to Christian terrorist activity. It's just not an appropriate response.

Here is a video that I thought was interesting. It's not necessarily my view and I don't think it supports their constitutional rights, but I think it's relevant just because many if not most Americans feel similarly and there may be some truth to what he is saying... (which is, is this to spite America and is it the best for the future of America?) Ultimately that is the most important thing IMO.

YouTube - Of Mosques and Men: Reflections on the Ground Zero Mosque

I'm content with the conversation there really. Frankly, I think you did a nice job of considering the arguments I was presenting. The truth is I effing HATE Islam, and I think its leaders are entirely too tolerant of violence. I took a liberty earlier that you didn't call me on when I said they "denounce" extremist violence in defense of Islam. There have been a few brave Muslim leaders who have stepped up to do that, but it took years after 9/11, and it was only a couple. It should have been every one of them, and they should have done it instantly and publicly. The fact that they didn't says A LOT about the nature of that disgusting religion.

Again, though, the extent to which Christianity is "less disgusting" is strikingly similar to the extent to which it is "more mature." In other words, Christianity was just as ugly when it was 1600 years old, so I really don't want to hear from Christians about how bad Muslims are. Religious people are all part of the same big self deception problem to me.

I argue in favor of the mosque primarily because of the weakness of the arguments against it. For example, arguments against the mosque have to be made from a secular perspective to deserve to be heard. You can't say something like this; "Our religion is peaceful, so we get to build a church, but your religion is hateful so you can't build your mosque." Nope, sorry. The whole of Islam isn't hateful so unless the whole of Christianity is utterly peaceful then that argument isn't worth anyone's time. In fact, to me, unless they're willing to say literally NOTHING about religion, no religious person has the right to argue against the Mosque being built what-so-ever, and that goes especially for homeboy in the video there. But then I don't think religious people should be allowed to talk at all so I'm a bit of an extremist myself in that regard.

I appreciate that. I agree that most if not all religions have sickeningly violent pasts and I would venture to say that the majority of history's wars have been fought over them. Some have been tamed down over the years, but they're all supposed to be about love and spirituality - not war and bloodshed. Probably one of the biggest ironies in this world. You argued your points very intelligently and I gained some insight into the issue from you and 004Gunner. I think it's especially nice to talk to soldiers like yourselves and hear your perspectives. And thank you for your service.