2019 Honda Passport

[MAST4R]

Wheel travel is important on trails that very few Subarus and Passports will see and extremely important on trails those will never see (if they are still street worthy anyway).

So wheel travel is grossly overrated when those vehicles are discussed. They don't need it. I lifted wheels in my H6 5EAT Outback all the time and could not care less. Wheel spin was never an issue because there is no firm lock anywhere in the system. I have had to spin wheels for a full 10 sec in front of 8-10 inch steps that the 4R won't notice, but nothing broke nor was alignment seriously affected. Similarly, being tippy was never an issue as it would take a crazy line or epic mistake to roll an Outback. And I did have to take inventive lines in some places due to abysmal angles. Undercarriage clearance was never an issue with a 2" lift.

Top-heavy 4x4s, on the other hand, while much more capable overall, have serious stability issues compared to low center of gravity Subarus. So, a short wheel base, tall 2dr Jeep compensates with awesome flex. And all other vehicles are somewhere in between.

Therefore, the capable AWD crossovers should be judged against different parameters. Subarus rock and roll on dirt and will hold their own in sand until they run out of clearance. They can and do beat loaded Land Cruisers on Australian sand dunes because they are so much lower to the ground and so much lighter.

But by the same token, while you can run Subaru stints on Fins and Things or Hells Revenge, or find the one hardcore obstacle a Kia can do with a pro driver, these vehicles are simply not suited for the kind of the terrain that Wranglers and 4Runners call home. One can drive Lockhart Basin in a lifted Legacy, but it is an epic adventure vs a family excursion in a 4Runner.

In sum, I am sure that the person who really knows what their priorities are can be extremely happy with either the 4R or the Passport. Personally, I don't mind all the street-only 4Runners whatsoever because we need those to ensure the existence of the model as well as a good supply of second-hand vehicles for full use in the hands of enthusiasts.

 

[LandCruiser]

One thing I've grown to love about the German crossovers is RWD bias in some of the models, something that I also had in my MT FJ Cruiser.

I think a little drivetrain trickery in these could make them fun to drive, but most manufacturers play it safe and even with tremendous HP all of these things wind up driving like minivans.

If you insist on "fun to drive" factor, only Mazda registers with the Japanese and the Subarus can be driven aggressively even if the newer ones will fight you. Honda and Toyota crossovers have never fallen into the "fun to drive" category even if they look like they're about to transform into a robot.

 

[Thai]

One thing I've grown to love about the German crossovers is RWD bias in some of the models, something that I also had in my MT FJ Cruiser.

I think a little drivetrain trickery in these could make them fun to drive, but most manufacturers play it safe and even with tremendous HP all of these things wind up driving like minivans.

If you insist on "fun to drive" factor, only Mazda registers with the Japanese and the Subarus can be driven aggressively even if the newer ones will fight you. Honda and Toyota crossovers have never fallen into the "fun to drive" category even if they look like they're about to transform into a robot.

RWD is great and all........but it means nothing in terms of “fun” on a BOF vehicle with high COG and super super soft suspension (with rigid axle to boot) and ultra conservative stability control....

A SH-AWD vehicle (e.g. Passport) will run circles around 4Runner or FJ in pretty much any handling tests...wet or dry. SH-AWD is also better than most AWD system, including those from Subaru.

 

[Thai]

AWD modes on Passport: Mud, sand, snow.

From my off-roading days, there isn’t much difference b/w mud and sand in driving. Snow...yeah, the computer starts you off in 2nd gear.

But isn’t how you drive in mud and sand pretty much the same?? Steady gas pressure and wheel spin is allowed to maintain speed...you don’t want aggressive traction control intervention because that may kill momentum.

But, if i am going up a rocky roads slowly, then which mode do you pick? (Yes, i know that Passport is not a rock crawler.). Like when i am off-roading in Colorado mountains with those semi-technical trails.

Over rocks, you need a super aggressive traction control system that clamps down on slipping wheel quickly...to send power to the wheel(s) with traction. You don’t want lots of wheel spin (as you want over mud and sand). Too much wheel spin over rocky terrain (esp. uphill) can lead to loss of momentum and thus being stuck.

 

[MAST4R]

Below, in bold:

AWD modes on Passport: Mud, sand, snow.

From my off-roading days, there isn’t much difference b/w mud and sand in driving. Snow...yeah, the computer starts you off in 2nd gear.

I also start in sand in 2nd, using manual mode with the AT.

But isn’t how you drive in mud and sand pretty much the same?? Steady gas pressure and wheel spin is allowed to maintain speed...you don’t want aggressive traction control intervention because that may kill momentum.

And so it is very important to turn off whatever button disengages on-road traction control. Otherwise you get stuck in whatever it is in a few yards, providing it is deep enough. Or cannot get started.

But, if i am going up a rocky roads slowly, then which mode do you pick? (Yes, i know that Passport is not a rock crawler.). Like when i am off-roading in Colorado mountains with those semi-technical trails.

None is needed. The real issue without low range in the San Juans is having sufficient power. This is why an H6 or XT Subaru is needed over a n/a H4. The latter can barely (I mean that very literally) climb the west slopes of Corkscrew or Engineer. But my H6, with upgraded brakes, moved up and down at speeds between the 4x4s and the UTVs.

Outside the San Juans, the rest of high-elevation CO is probably too much for Hondas and Subarus. Some people do it, but that's really pushing it to the extreme.

Over rocks, you need a super aggressive traction control system that clamps down on slipping wheel quickly...to send power to the wheel(s) with traction. You don’t want lots of wheel spin (as you want over mud and sand). Too much wheel spin over rocky terrain (esp. uphill) can lead to loss of momentum and thus being stuck.

I agree but it is a bit more comlex. If not using the rear locker, using traction control alone, the 4R can slide sideways dangerously while spinning wheels if a spot catches you off guard. I actually don't know how crawl control would react in those cases because I only use it downhill and for extended rock gardens. In both of those scenarios it shines, but I like to be in charge uphill.

 

[Thai]

Found it: Here's How The 2017 Honda Ridgeline's Trick Off-Roading Modes Work

Mud: “Mud” mode has an emphasis on maintaining momentum. Gain increases as you tip the throttle. Torque vectoring is shut off and more power is sent to the rear wheels. The transmission delays upshifts and traction control allows for more wheelspin.

Sand: Basically the same as “mud,” but with all the needles moved even more aggressively. It has maximum rear-bias (a Honda rep told me 70 percent) and an electronically “locked” rear differential.

Snow: The idea here is to minimize pedal travel and make launching easier. The throttle input via Drive By Wire (DBW) is made less aggressive, particularly where you first tip-in the pedal. That basically means you’re giving it less gas than you think.

 

[MAST4R]

Found it: Here's How The 2017 Honda Ridgeline's Trick Off-Roading Modes Work

Mud: “Mud” mode has an emphasis on maintaining momentum. Gain increases as you tip the throttle. Torque vectoring is shut off and more power is sent to the rear wheels. The transmission delays upshifts and traction control allows for more wheelspin.

Sand: Basically the same as “mud,” but with all the needles moved even more aggressively. It has maximum rear-bias (a Honda rep told me 70 percent) and an electronically “locked” rear differential.

Snow: The idea here is to minimize pedal travel and make launching easier. The throttle input via Drive By Wire (DBW) is made less aggressive, particularly where you first tip-in the pedal. That basically means you’re giving it less gas than you think.

No question that this is well thought out. Subtle, but meaningful adjustments.

But how does an ABS-based traction control system simulate a rear locker?

Couple things I like: that Honda put an effort here and did not just offer a pseudo-AWD, the engine, and the cargo area.

Couple things I dislike: tire sizes!, that AWD is optional and that the approach angle is very bad.

As a soft roader it basically attacks the Forester/Outback market being with Forester proportions but Outback overall size. So that's interesting.

At the end, I very much doubt that the details matter. Unless there is flaw in the Honda system, the Passport, the Forester, and the Outback alike will get to the same places in the same way. The Forester will have a bit of an easier time due to less overhang and the Subarus will be probably more comfortable due to less ridiculous tire sizes.

 

[Thai]

No question that this is well thought out. Subtle, but meaningful adjustments.

But how does an ABS-based traction control system simulate a rear locker?

Couple things I like: that Honda put an effort here and did not just offer a pseudo-AWD, the engine, and the cargo area.

Couple things I dislike: tire sizes!, that AWD is optional and that the approach angle is very bad.

As a soft roader it basically attacks the Forester/Outback market being with Forester proportions but Outback overall size. So that's interesting.

At the end, I very much doubt that the details matter. Unless there is flaw in the Honda system, the Passport, the Forester, and the Outback alike will get to the same places in the same way. The Forester will have a bit of an easier time due to less overhang and the Subarus will be probably more comfortable due to less ridiculous tire sizes.

You need to read more about SH-AWD. The rear diff can indeed lock side to side. That’s why I wrote that Honda SH-AWD system is much better than Subaru on-road and off-road.

 

[MAST4R]

You need to read more about SH-AWD. The rear diff can indeed lock side to side. That’s why I wrote that Honda SH-AWD system is much better than Subaru on-road and off-road.

Actually, that's wrong. From the Honda press release:
"Unlike most competing systems, i-VTM4™ uses active torque vectoring to send up to 70 percent of engine torque to the rear axle and 100 percent of that torque to either the left or right rear wheels."

While most Subarus never get more than 50% torque to the rear, the side to side "100%" distribution is attained by the ABS braking the spinning wheel to a full stop, which is exactly what Subaru VDC does (and X-mode does it faster than VDC models without X-mode). So that makes sense. Magic e-locker, not so much.

2019 Honda Passport Makes World Debut: Adventure-Ready All-New 5-passenger SUV on Display at 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show - Honda News

So saying that it is "much better" is quite the stretch. It is actually very similar offroad.

On road, do not forget the boxer engines lower center of gravity. Not only does Subaru offer torque vectoring as well, but also that low CoG. I will believe that a Passport corners faster that a turbo Forester when I see it

And let's remember that 21 degree approach angle. The Passport ain't getting any further than a Forester, maybe the other way round, by a bit. But that's detail. They will all do well.

I will give you this: Subaru dropped the turbo from the Forester and if they do not put the new 2.4 turbo in the Outback when they retire the H6 next year, the Passport will be the better enthusiast option. At least on paper.

 

[Thai]

Actually, that's wrong. From the Honda press release:
"Unlike most competing systems, i-VTM4™ uses active torque vectoring to send up to 70 percent of engine torque to the rear axle and 100 percent of that torque to either the left or right rear wheels."

While most Subarus never get more than 50% torque to the rear, the side to side "100%" distribution is attained by the ABS braking the spinning wheel to a full stop, which is exactly what Subaru VDC does (and X-mode does it faster than VDC models without X-mode). So that makes sense. Magic e-locker, not so much.

2019 Honda Passport Makes World Debut: Adventure-Ready All-New 5-passenger SUV on Display at 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show - Honda News

So saying that it is "much better" is quite the stretch. It is actually very similar offroad.

On road, do not forget the boxer engines lower center of gravity. Not only does Subaru offer torque vectoring as well, but also that low CoG. I will believe that a Passport corners faster that a turbo Forester when I see it

And let's remember that 21 degree approach angle. The Passport ain't getting any further than a Forester, maybe the other way round, by a bit. But that's detail. They will all do well.

I will give you this: Subaru dropped the turbo from the Forester and if they do not put the new 2.4 turbo in the Outback when they retire the H6 next year, the Passport will be the better enthusiast option. At least on paper.

All-Wheel-Drive 2017 Honda Ridgeline Outsmarts Bad Roads - PickupTrucks.com News

"The brains of the system is the i-VTM4, which controls an electronic rear differential and dynamic torque vectoring to send up to 70 percent of the 280 horsepower V-6 engine's 262 pounds-feet of torque to the rear depending on the traction needs.

That power can be further split from zero to 100 percent left or right between the rear tires using computer-controlled wet-clutch packs that precisely control slip at the wheel. This gives the Ridgeline a big traction advantage over conventional 4x4s with open or limited-slip differentials.

The 2017 Ridgeline all-wheel-drive rear differential uses a pair of computer-controlled wet-clutch packs, one for each wheel, to distribute torque left or right in whatever percentage is needed to maximize traction."

The Honda system has a wet-clutch and gears in the rear differential. It controls power to both rear wheels...depending on traction needs. It does NOT use brakes to shift power between the rear wheels (like Subaru's VDC and other brake-based traction control). Honda's is like a rear locker off-road. Because it is MECHANICAL-based via clutches, the reaction and torque distribution is instantaneous.

Subaru's VDC X-mode etc. uses traction control to give "LSD" like control. But those systems (and like 4runner's ATRAC) is REACTIVE. The system reacts only after it detects enough slippage before it will start pulsing the brake on the slipping wheel. And because it pulses the brake(s), the torque transfer to the wheel with traction is not smooth...the power going to the wheel with traction "stutters". This is not the case with i-VTM4 or SH-AWD.

In other words, i-VTM4 rear differential is a locker off-road. The Subaru's is like any other traction control system.

On-road, again unlike others, the Honda's rear differential can OVER-drive the outside tire (on rear axle) around a corner via the clutch-packs. OVERdriving makes the outside tire spin FASTER than the inside, thus help prevent (or reduce) understeer.

Subaru VDC and other traction control based torque vectoring would use ABS brakes to slow down the inside tire around a corner to decrease understeer.

One system uses mechanical clutches to make you go faster around corner...the other system uses brakes to slow the inside tire(s). I prefer the over-driving vs. the slowing down.

And this is why i wrote that on-road handling, i prefer iVTM-4/SH-AWD. I am ONLY talking about the AWD system, not the rest of the car. I have no idea how the actual handling of the whole vehicle is...only talking about the AWD function.

The downfalls to i-VTM4/SH-AWD are twofold. One...cost...because Honda's system requires extra hardware...it is not a cheap system...thus, not many other car companies have this type of system. Two...it is heavier. Due to extra hardware, it does add weight. And i am not sure how well it ages over the life of the car due to extra hardware and more things to wear out.

 

[Thai]

Here is a much better and ultra-detailed explanation of Honda/Acura's AWD system: Acura SH-AWD: A Comprehensive Analysis | YouWheel - Your Car Expert

Basically, the system functions as a true mechanical center differential with lock capability to manage power front to rear. And this is why it is capable of sending so much torque to the rear axle.

The system also has mechanical gears and clutches in the rear diff to function as a true mechanical rear locker to manage power side to side in the rear axle. And this is why it is capable of sending 100% (of the 70% being sent to the rear axle) to ONE rear wheel.

It other words, it is a bloody damn good system. Too bad it is stuck on a minivan platform vehicle. :crybaby:

 

[Thai]

And let's remember that 21 degree approach angle. The Passport ain't getting any further than a Forester, maybe the other way round, by a bit. But that's detail. They will all do well.

I will give you this: Subaru dropped the turbo from the Forester and if they do not put the new 2.4 turbo in the Outback when they retire the H6 next year, the Passport will be the better enthusiast option. At least on paper.

Yeah, i agree with you that 21 degree approach angle is somewhat disappointing but i doubt that it matters much to 99% of owners. Like Subaru, Passport is just a soft off-roader all-weather vehicle. It is good for basic sight-seeing off-road like in the mountain trails in CO.

Frankly, that is all i need. My days of hardcore off-roading is long gone with wife and 3 kids.

 

[Thai]

Good video:

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[MAST4R]

Ok, so you are talking about the Ridgeline and I am talking about the Passport. I know nothing about Honda but the press release did not even feature the word "differential."
It makes sense that the Ridgeline will be better and more robust.

Again, whether you have a Passport, Forester, or Outback, you will do or can do the same things. Therefore, we seem to agree and so it becomes a matter of preference.

Considering that Subaru dropped the turbo from the Forester and may also limit the Gen VI Outback to just an n/a H4, the Passport may well be the best option for enthusiasts.

 

[Thai]

Ok, so you are talking about the Ridgeline and I am talking about the Passport. I know nothing about Honda but the press release did not even feature the word "differential."
It makes sense that the Ridgeline will be better and more robust.

Again, whether you have a Passport, Forester, or Outback, you will do or can do the same things. Therefore, we seem to agree and so it becomes a matter of preference.

Considering that Subaru dropped the turbo from the Forester and may also limit the Gen VI Outback to just an n/a H4, the Passport may well be the best option for enthusiasts.

Ridgeline, Pilot, and Passport...and mostly, Acura MDX/RDX/RLX...all share the same hardware and very similar programming. Honda vehicles get “off-road” modes, while Acura gets more aggressive on-road programming.

Passport will likely share everything with Ridgeline...in terms of programming i would guess.

 

[MAST4R]

Ridgeline, Pilot, and Passport...and mostly, Acura MDX/RDX/RLX...all share the same hardware and very similar programming. Honda vehicles get “off-road” modes, while Acura gets more aggressive on-road programming.

Passport will likely share everything with Ridgeline...in terms of programming i would guess.

All that's good. I don't have any shares in either (that I know of, lol). The more options, the better.

Are you looking to move to a Passport?

For me, being with the kids out is key.

I started going out with kids, so I have never been "hardcore" or care to be but we did drive trails almost no Subarus did and we are driving trails in the stock height 4R that few people drive solo. So others think we are pushing it but I think we are doing just fine.

I think the key with kids is to make them comfortable, give them enough time to enjoy themselves outside, and have something they like (ugh, screens) for the pavement to and from trail head. Once they enjoy it, it is all good.

Mine are to the point that they are pushing me into the bigger rocks and the deeper sand and I am like, relax! They wanted Poison Spider on our first Moab trip in the 4R and I was, yes we can, but nope, Fins and Things and Tower Arch are the hardest we will do on this trip.

My now 12yo has changed from the guy who disliked bumpiness and needed many stops to the guy who wants a Rubicon and big rocks and who does not want me to stop on trail, just go-go! My little one has always been a fan, has a myriad of offroad themed shirts (and national parks etc) and can sleep while I go over the bumpiest sections there are.

So, your kids might enjoy it! Just a find a vehicle that has a 3rd and is capable enough for most of what you want to do...And of course, you will be exhausted after both driving and taking care of the kids.

 

[Gecko]

I actually really like this Passport, and think it will be a hit for Honda. The SUV market has changed so much over the last decade or so... new segments have developed or shifted away from what they were before, and the two-row, midsize CUV/SUV area is one that was quickly neglected. The only other competitors I can think of are the Ford Edge and Nissan Murano - maybe the new Chevy Blazer too.

The class below - CR-V, Rav4, Escape, etc - are a good size these days, and have nice features, but they're also all quite narrow and lacking a V6 option.

The class above - Pilot, Highlander, Explorer - almost all come standard with 3rd row seats, and most fold flat so you can't remove them, which eats into cargo room.

As a 6'1" single guy with dogs, I have no need for a third row and would prefer more cargo space for gear and weekend trips. I also want something wider and more comfortable than the entry level utes, and won't buy a 4cylinder.

I think this segment of the market has been underserved since OEMs decided that everything needs a third row - standard. Passport should do well here.

I've also heard that Toyota has a few new SUVs in the wings - three to be exact - and I'm curious if something like this will be in the cards. Something like a Venza in execution.

Yes, 4Runner fits into that midsize, two row category, but at this point, it's not the easiest vehicle to live with day-to-day with a family and urban commute.

 

[Thai]

Really good walk-around:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/K6nJetPDfaQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Ed_C]

I'd like to rebadge one as an Isuzu Rodeo

 

[sstyota]

I was into the Passport until I saw it doesn't have a shifter -- it has buttons! No thanks