3rd gen lca upgrade to 4th gen possible?

[bkw]

I read the big/main threads about the 3rd gen lower ball joint design. And as such I have already ordered new oem lbj (and bolts) and outer tre for my 174k '96 with a loose driver side I just purchased a couple weeks ago. Regardless of the possible answers to this question, I'm *already* getting new oem lbj's from camelback. (just to head off the inevitable "just get new oem...")

What I haven't found anywhere is any mention of any possible way to actually fix the problem by replacing the control arm with some other design that rests on a ball rather than hanging from a ball.

Apparently 4th gen changed to a compression design. So can you swap in 4th gen control arms and spindles?

Or is there any after market parts that change the design rather than replicate the factory design?

Thanks!

 

[Black798]

I like the idea of it. I was actually thinking of this the other day. I don't see why it wouldn't work if the hub and arm spacing is the same.

 

[techno]

Several big reasons why you can't swap them. The sway bar and steering designs are completely different. 4th gens moved the rack in front of the axles and the sway bars in front. The work involved it modifying everything to align all that geometry would be a considerable challenge.

 

[bkw]

With all the other crazy stuff Total Chaos makes, I'm surprised they don't have something. Whole boxed lower control arm with dual shock mounts, you know, to handle extreme impacts, which are all still hanging from an upside down ball joint.

Looking at the stock parts installed on the truck, I think IF you were going to the trouble to design a whole new lower control arm from scratch, I don't see why you couldn't make the ball joint point any way you want. It would just require a matching lower ball joint carrier, which might normally mean designing a whole new matching replacement spindle, but in our case we have a handy carrier that just bolts on to the spindle, so you only have to design a matching carrier.

I would normally say it's exotic wishful thinking to talk about a whole replacement lower control arm, but they actually have it, so it's not crazy.

http://www.chaosfab.com/96-02-4Runner-Long-Travel-Suspension-Kit-96000.html

 

[kolelt]

With all the other crazy stuff Total Chaos makes, I'm surprised they don't have something. Whole boxed lower control arm with dual shock mounts, you know, to handle extreme impacts, which are all still hanging from an upside down ball joint.

Looking at the stock parts installed on the truck, I think IF you were going to the trouble to design a whole new lower control arm from scratch, I don't see why you couldn't make the ball joint point any way you want. It would just require a matching lower ball joint carrier, which might normally mean designing a whole new matching replacement spindle, but in our case we have a handy carrier that just bolts on to the spindle, so you only have to design a matching carrier.

I would normally say it's exotic wishful thinking to talk about a whole replacement lower control arm, but they actually have it, so it's not crazy.

TOTAL CHAOS FABRICATION - 1996-2002 4Runner 2WD & 4WD Long Travel Suspension Kit

Total chaos LCA is more then just putting them on. You need tundra axles, and probably different otr and itr

 

[MStudt]

You'll have to replace the LCA's, spindles, UCA's, UBJ's, LBJ, TRE's, and inner TRE's. Basically you'll have to swap over the entire front end. Also, I believe the LCA's are bit wider than the 3rd Gen's. so you need to fab up new cam bolt mounts.

 

[Black798]

Id say at that point is not really worth the effort. To bad the isn't a way other than long travel to get rid of the crappy ball joint design on the 3rd gen

 

[Blackdawg]

Someone on here was making uniball LBJs. They were cutting out the LBJ and putting in a uniball cup.

 

[bkw]

You'll have to replace the LCA's, spindles, UCA's, UBJ's, LBJ, TRE's, and inner TRE's. Basically you'll have to swap over the entire front end. Also, I believe the LCA's are bit wider than the 3rd Gen's. so you need to fab up new cam bolt mounts.

Why? I'm talking in theory. Forget how the actual TC arms happen to be designed or how the 4th gen happens to be designed. Just look at a 3rd gen lca and lbj carrier, and imagine a different lca and lbj carrier in that same volume of space

I see no reason it couldn't be the other way in the same volume of space.

The only thing that makes it "impossible" is the realization that: "You would have to make a whole new lca from scratch." Ok granted, mostly neither of us is going to whack that out in our garage. But someone did in fact already do exactly that, so it's not all that unimaginable. Al that's needed is that they happened to do it slightly differently than how they chose to do it. I don't see anything that requires a major rearranging of all the front end parts, not even a new spindle, Just the lower control arm and the the carrier that holds the current ball joint which just bolts on to the spindle.

Don't focus so much on how the TC one just happens to be. My point about the TC one was that: "Here is a real life example of a 3rd party making an entire new control arm from scratch, so it's demonstrably not an outlandish concept. So given THAT, it seems this other imaginary variation of that should be perfectly possible."

 

[bkw]

Someone on here was making uniball LBJs. They were cutting out the LBJ and putting in a uniball cup.

I'm not sure uniball is any better, except for range of motion. With uniball, the weight of the truck is still resting on a ring that's just a little bit smaller than a ball. Which is evil in 2 ways.

1) Small amount of total bearing surface, so it grinds away faster.

2) WHEN it grinds away to a certain point, the ball falls through the hole.

With a ball joint in a spherical pocket, with the ball on top, both of those factors are reversed. There is more bearing surface so it lasts longer, even indefinitely. And when it does finally wear out, the weight is still just resting in a pocket. It's never ever going to fall through. You have to hit some railroad tracks or something to possibly make it bounce up out of the pocket, or of course if your off-roading.

 

[Blackdawg]

I'm not sure uniball is any better, except for range of motion. With uniball, the weight of the truck is still resting on a ring that's just a little bit smaller than a ball. Which is evil in 2 ways.

1) Small amount of total bearing surface, so it grinds away faster.

2) WHEN it grinds away to a certain point, the ball falls through the hole.

With a ball joint in a spherical pocket, with the ball on top, both of those factors are reversed. There is more bearing surface so it lasts longer, even indefinitely. And when it does finally wear out, the weight is still just resting in a pocket. It's never ever going to fall through. You have to hit some railroad tracks or something to possibly make it bounce up out of the pocket, or of course if your off-roading.

Disagree entirely. Especially because i have blow two ball joints..

It takes nothing to blow the OEM ball joints. Hundreds of people have had it happen just going down the road. Nothing big just bam and your ****ed.

Been there...twice. In a month.

Not fun.

Frank-3.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr
SOSMeet-17.jpg by Monte Nickles Photos, on Flickr


Uniball is much stronger. Its a steel bearing with a coating. Generally, the coating gives out first and then you have to change the uniball. But it won't seperate. This is why they are so popular in the long travel community. You can still limp home after ruining a uniball.

 

[MStudt]

Why? I'm talking in theory. Forget how the actual TC arms happen to be designed or how the 4th gen happens to be designed. Just look at a 3rd gen lca and lbj carrier, and imagine a different lca and lbj carrier in that same volume of space

I see no reason it couldn't be the other way in the same volume of space.

The only thing that makes it "impossible" is the realization that: "You would have to make a whole new lca from scratch." Ok granted, mostly neither of us is going to whack that out in our garage. But someone did in fact already do exactly that, so it's not all that unimaginable. Al that's needed is that they happened to do it slightly differently than how they chose to do it. I don't see anything that requires a major rearranging of all the front end parts, not even a new spindle, Just the lower control arm and the the carrier that holds the current ball joint which just bolts on to the spindle.

Don't focus so much on how the TC one just happens to be. My point about the TC one was that: "Here is a real life example of a 3rd party making an entire new control arm from scratch, so it's demonstrably not an outlandish concept. So given THAT, it seems this other imaginary variation of that should be perfectly possible."

Not sure where all of this came from? Did I say anything about Total Chaos in my post?

Why did you ask us if this could be done? Seems like you have all the answers you need already. I wish you luck trying to attach a new LBJ to you spindle. I think you're best option is going to be welding it in place. Then you won't have to worry about it actually fitting. :help:

 

[bkw]

Not sure where all of this came from? Did I say anything about Total Chaos in my post?

Why did you ask us if this could be done? Seems like you have all the answers you need already. I wish you luck trying to attach a new LBJ to you spindle. I think you're best option is going to be welding it in place. Then you won't have to worry about it actually fitting. :help:

Sorry, I thought you were responding to the later comments not the original post. Yes I see that one part of the original question is impossible, or at least very impractical, which is swapping in 4th gen parts. But the original question also asked about a totally 3rd party replacement. Either way.

 

[MStudt]

Sorry, I thought you were responding to the later comments not the original post. Yes I see that one part of the original question is impossible, or at least very impractical, which is swapping in 4th gen parts. But the original question, and the later post, also asked about a totally 3rd party replacement. Either way.

There's not other option for our LBJ's unless you have a home made kit, or long travel kit. There was someone on here that was going to start making uni-ball LBJ's, but that hasn't happened yet. Uni-balls are going to be far stronger than OEM's, and there's no questioning it.

Trying to swap over 4th Gen parts would be a very difficult task. I've looking into doing that in the past, and ever ordered used 4th Gen LCA's and spindles off eBay. I realized it wouldn't work, and returned the parts.

 

[EatonKyleH]

Been considering running these in the future with the solo motorsports spindle that fits them.

Toyota 1" Lower Uniball & 7/8" Heim Steering Upgrade - Solo Motorsports

 

[Scramble]

Been considering running these in the future with the solo motorsports spindle that fits them.

Toyota 1" Lower Uniball & 7/8" Heim Steering Upgrade - Solo Motorsports

So you're looking at $2550 for 2 spindles & 2 Uniballs...and i can keep everything else factory/midtravel?

 

[JayRolla]

So you're looking at $2550 for 2 spindles & 2 Uniballs...and i can keep everything else factory/midtravel?

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Sounds cheaper to replace with OEM LBJ's, buy two extra sets and have them with you on the trial.

If you going this far long travel should be the way to go.

 

[turbo8]

Even if you get TC long travel, it still uses the stock lower balljoint.

 

[EatonKyleH]

So you're looking at $2550 for 2 spindles & 2 Uniballs...and i can keep everything else factory/midtravel?

You could. sure. However I'm going long travel here shortly and have been looking at them as a future addition to that.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Sounds cheaper to replace with OEM LBJ's, buy two extra sets and have them with you on the trial.

If you going this far long travel should be the way to go.

Cheaper ya. None of the long travel kits (for this vehicle) I've found address the lower ball joint. Also many times the lower ball joint fails it also tears apart the brake lines, steering rack (and/or tie rods), CV, etc. Keeping a spare set of LBJs while a good idea is unlikely to (by itself) get you out of that time one fails.

Mainly I linked these to show the option. Being that Total Chaos has been brought up and the idea of swapping out all 4th gen parts and fabricating their fitment I figured price wasn't of utmost concern here.

 

[Black798]

This is really the ultimate solution. I really wish they would fit in my budget. I can't believe there isn't someone mass producing these