3rd Gen Possible Blown Head Gasket @ 195k

[phillyphonka]

Hello all!

I am new to the forum, been lurking on here for quite some time for various topics but recently decided to sign up.

So, it turns out, for my debut post I'm asking for some repair advice. :\ I had originally planned on asking about tires as my first post, but that will have to wait. I apologize for the lengthy post and truly appreciate your input.

Background: Bought a 97 4Runner SR5 about a year ago with 186,3xx on the odometer. It has been an excellent and solid vehicle for the past year and have loved it. I've had a couple minor things that I've needed to replace, but I haven't ever regretted getting it. My dad has a 96 with 250k+ on the odo, still running strong.

What I've had to replace: most recently, the thermostat. It was overheating in slow/stopped traffic. Living in AZ, I am sure glad this happened in late Fall, when it's a bit cooler. A few months earlier, the idler control valve had corroded through, from what I'm assuming was hard water in the cooling system. So, it was leaking coolant and the engine had gotten hot then as well. Neither of these times did the temp get into the red, though it did get quite close a few times.

The current problem: It's safe to say this vehicle has had its share of overheating issues recently. This past weekend my girlfriend and I were on our way up to Prescott where we were going to stay for a day, then up to Flagstaff for a couple days. About 15 mins outside of Prescott Valley, the temp started rising again (about 3/4 way up when I saw it). I immediately pulled over to let it cool down. We were fortunate enough to be rescued by her grandfather who lives close by and brought us some water.

Put about a half gallon in and we were able to limp it up to his home where we stayed for a little bit, then continued into Prescott where we were gonna be staying with her mother. The next morning, it ran rough for about 30-40 seconds, then smoothed out while driving it locally. Same thing would happen, although for shorter time periods, the next few times I started it up. Took it to a local shop who looked at it, and here's where the bad news came...

Apparently (and I'm still quite skeptical), it passed a cooling system pressure test, though they mentioned it having some leaking hoses. They claimed to have put another half gallon of coolant in, and when they ran a block test, it apparently failed. They then quoted me what I consider an outrageous price ($3300+tax) to replace the head gasket, inspect and machine the heads if necessary, as well as replace the timing belt & water pump. The head gasket set they were to use was $845 and the timing belt/water pump kit was $571. The rest was labor and miscellaneous necessary repairs such as coolant system flush, oil change, etc.

It sat for a couple days while my girlfriend and I continued to Flagstaff and when I started it upon return to Prescott, it ran smooth as it always has with no obvious tell-tale signs of head gasket issues (white smoke, loss of power, misfiring, etc)

Currently, it is at my girlfriend's mom's house until I can tow it down, hopefully this weekend.

So, here are my options:
1) Pay for them to repair it per their estimate.
2) Sell the vehicle for a low-ball price
3) Tow it home and have it repaired locally
4) Drive it home and have it repaired locally, assuming I make the trip successfully

So, for the questions:

1) At 195k, is it worth it to try and open up the motor and repair the head gasket/heads?

- I haven't received a quote from my local shop yet, but I assume it will be cheaper, although probably not by a ton.

2) If not, would the better option be to try and find a used motor with less miles to swap in for the current motor?

- I spoke with a local salvage yard and got a rough estimate of $2800 to swap for a motor with a claimed mileage of 135k

3) Is it possible that this might not be a head gasket issue?

- I got the vibe from the shop that they might have just quoted me an outrageous price in hopes I just sell it and they would gladly have bought it from me.

I am determined to keep this thing goin', but I'm just significantly torn between the two options as both are pretty heavy and incur painful damage to my wallet. The vehicle definitely has great potential for long life and I'm willing to keep it alive as long as I can.

I've read mixed answers to similar questions on this and other threads and am hoping to get some feedback.

Again, my apologies for writing a novel. Thank you very much for reading it or skimming it! If you have suggestions I am open to hearing and discussing them.

Thanks!!

 

[BrianSD_42]

- I spoke with a local salvage yard and got a rough estimate of $2800 to swap for a motor with a claimed mileage of 135k

That price is ridiculous.

Guys here find used engines for sale with < 100k miles for less than $1500.

 

[BillIam]

id show him 1200$ cash for the engine and have a local shop do the swap, have the timing belt changed while your in there

 

[BrianSD_42]

Here is my thread ---> http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/[email protected]

I'm not advocating you do what I did though. If you are not planning on keeping or builiding the truck then consider just selling it cheap to someone who can do the work. Subtract $2000 off the KBB and just sell it.

 

[shootmymime]

any white smoke out the exhaust? CEL? When its cold open up the radiator cap and look for continuing bubbles (if it is a head gasket the high compression in the cylinder will force gas into the cooling system, thus bubbles)

you know you almost due for a timing belt and water pump. might be a good time to do it if the head is coming off, that is if a head gasket is needed.


so to get down to the dirt of things. i would say pack 5 gal of water in the truck and drive it back to the vally. its winter time and all down hill. I used to live there. Salt River Rez and if i was there we would work on it together. Darn now you got me thinking about that place!

 

[BrianSD_42]

They then quoted me what I consider an outrageous price ($3300+tax) to replace the head gasket, inspect and machine the heads if necessary, as well as replace the timing belt & water pump. The head gasket set they were to use was $845 and the timing belt/water pump kit was $571. The rest was labor and miscellaneous necessary repairs such as coolant system flush, oil change, etc.

That price is outrageous. You can order BRAND NEW aftermarket (yet reliable) complete HEADs for $580 each side from JE. They are the only ones I have ever heard of that makes a complete Japanese aftermarket head for the our Toyota V6.

I have 2 of them courtesy of my mechanic shop and about $2700 (both sides, Toyota gasket kits); its been about 22,000 miles and no issues so far.

 

[phillyphonka]

Thank you for replying so quickly, everyone! Sorry I've been late to reply, it's been outrageously busy at work and home the past few days.

That price is ridiculous.

Guys here find used engines for sale with < 100k miles for less than $1500.

True, but it did include both the motor and the labor for swapping it out. The motor itself was priced @ $1300. I've called a couple other places and seen 'em as low as around $1100.

 

[phillyphonka]

Here is my thread ---> http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/[email protected]

I'm not advocating you do what I did though. If you are not planning on keeping or builiding the truck then consider just selling it cheap to someone who can do the work. Subtract $2000 off the KBB and just sell it.

I'll have to look at your thread. Thanks!

I'm definitely wanting to keep it. It's worth it to me to put out a few thousand rather than spend way more thousands on a newer vehicle that I don't know as much. I've had enough vehicle changes in the past couple years and I keep running into issues, so I'm wanting to pick one and just stick with it. If I were to sell it and get another vehicle, I'd want something new, or lightly used with a hefty warranty, but at this point, I wanna keep my Runner.

 

[nissanh]

Was your engine burning engine oil? if not:

Get a quote for to rebuild both heads with new valve stems and guides. (complete head job)
I spent $220 to get a 4 cylinder head job.

Buy OEM head gaskets and get it done right for the first time. You'll notice good power and better gas mileage. If possible get the fuel injectors cleaned and recalibrated (I am planning to use witchhunter.com for the injectors)

Clean the piston top:

Get the T-belt/waterpump.. etc., done.
You should be good for abother 100 K miles minimum

 

[phillyphonka]

UPDATE: Sorry everyone for my absenteeism! Work has been crazy and I just recently had some new developments with the 4Runner. Hadn't made any real progress until this past weekend.

So, BrianSD, just checked out your thread and what happened to your engine is pretty identical to what happened to mine (except mine had had some instances of overheating prior to this last issue). Your thread was informative and helpful for what I'm thinking about doing with mine.

So, I got it down from Prescott on Saturday. My girlfriend's dad was generous enough to tow it down, so I rented a UHaul auto-transport trailer for about $70 (with the insurance), and we went up and fetched it. When I started it up up there, it ran rougher than it had before, not surprisingly, but we got it on and secured without any issues. Bringing it down went smooth and I just parked it at my place.

Shootmymime, you asked about CEL and white smoke? Well, until Saturday when I started it up, I had had no CEL or white smoke. When I started it up in Prescott, within 30 seconds the CEL had come on steady and it has remained on since then. Until today, there had been no white smoke, or at least none that was apparent. It wasn't terribly cold when I picked it up, but it's possible that it was cold enough to have the typical exhaust vapors that accompany cold weather. However, today when I started it up to take it to the shop, white smoking came pouring out the back. So, another unmistakable sign of a bad head gasket.

Luckily, the shop I'm taking it to is about a mile and a half away, so I drove it there nice and easy. On the way, the engine smoothed out a bit, but as I pulled into the lot, it got running really rough.

This shop seemed a bit more reasonable in their price. They're going to do a block test tomorrow, just to verify and give a second opinion. In the likely event of it being a bad head gasket, and I want to repair it/replace it, he quoted me just over $2900 to have the head gasket replaced, the heads sublet out to the machine shop, the timing belt and water pump replaced, and the other smaller, miscellaneous repairs that go with all of that, tax included. Still not cheap, but at least it's a few hundred dollars cheaper then the other quote.

We also briefly discussed the option of having the heads replaced if they are cracked, since it could possibly be cheaper and better that way.

I also checked with a couple other salvage yards in the area that I can find, one of which had a motor with 123k miles on it for $1100, but they don't do the swap themselves, though they would ship it to where it's needed.

Another option that I started considering was the option of getting a completely remanufactured engine. There are a couple websites that sell them, and I was reading a rebuild thread on TacomaWorld.com that seemed to be rather successful. While this option would definitely be more expensive, if it comes down to it, I think it's worth the extra money to get an engine that is completely refurbished/rebuilt over an engine that has fewer miles, but that I don't know any of the history. Although, if the bottom end of the engine is still good, would this just be overkill? Or would I run the risk of needing to replace the bottom end/entire engine at some point in the future since it would have had its entire life without rebuild?

The sites I have been looking at for remanufactured engines are:

YotaShop.com

and

ToyotaTruckEngine.com (APR Auto)

Anyone here have any experience with either of these? The Tacoma rebuild was from YotaShop and though the OP hasn't reported back with a 2000 mi update, it seemed to be a successful venture.

Anyways, thank you again for your replies and I'll try to keep things updated, for those interested. Thank you for your help!

 

[BrianSD_42]

Dude I don't know if it is a good idea to spend $3500 to rebuild or fix an engine on a vehicle worth $4000, maybe a bit more, maybe a lot less. And that is without the head issue.

I justified fixing mine because it was a build but it still hurts (lol)

 

[PhysioTherapyD]

Dude I don't know if it is a good idea to spend $3500 to rebuild or fix an engine on a vehicle worth $4000, maybe a bit more, maybe a lot less. And that is without the head issue.

I justified fixing mine because it was a build but it still hurts (lol)

Ah, man. This is where I am at right now:Cry: Last Sunday morning I tried to start my '96 and, yep, NOPE. Lotsa bad language :tape2:, a tow truck, and a week later I am facing the same question. My Runner has 192k on it and is in pretty damn good condition other than, you know, THIS:

 

[BunkySr]

Ouch

Maybe look into a Rebuilt motor for less and drop it in?

 

[UnderFire]

Jesus, that is ridiculous markup on the parts, a Fel-Pro head set for the 5VZ can be had for under 300$, and an OE TB/WP is just over 200$.

I'd tell em to eff off and take my 4Runner with me.

 

[PhysioTherapyD]

Maybe look into a Rebuilt motor for less and drop it in?

That's where we are on it now. Looking for a short block - the heads seem to have made it out alive but there's an awful lot of rust and crud on the block and God knows how long the da@m thing has been leaking....I just hope none of the "green stuff" found its way to the cat....
(Where's the "giant pit with money being tossed in" emoji???! GRRRRRRR....)

 

[4Runnermex]

Thank you for replying so quickly, everyone! Sorry I've been late to reply, it's been outrageously busy at work and home the past few days.







True, but it did include both the motor and the labor for swapping it out. The motor itself was priced @ $1300. I've called a couple other places and seen 'em as low as around $1100.

Man these shops sure like to rip people off. Down here in Texas I've charged 1200 motor and labor included to do a 4x4 swap I can do in 8-10hours.

I've redone heads for the total of 600 with machine shop resurfacing,water pump and t belt, head gasket kit, thermostat, spark plugs and sealed the whole engine again all under 600.

If you know the basic things about mechanics you can do the swap your self and if your gonna pay that much money for a swap.

FLY ME OUT THERE AND ILL DO IT FOR WAY CHEAPER..

I have 5 engines one has 118k miles with blown head-gasket I'm gonna work on here soon.

I'm a self thought 3rd gen guy with about 50 swaps under my belt. And 6 headgasket jobs all on 3rd gen and no other.

Haynes Manual was the one I used to learn how to swap this engines. I downloaded on my IPad and the rest is history.

 

[snivilous]

What head gaskets is everyone running? I saw [MENTION=65101]BrianSD_42[/MENTION] ran all Toyota gaskets and that cost over a grand, I'm looking for super cheap and KNOWN to work. My heads are blown and I picked up some "new" ones and want to do it cheaply, I don't care enough about my engine and just want it to run for 6 months so I can swap something in over the summer or 18 months tops so I can graduate before it grenades.

The O'reilly kit is a $400 FelPro set which a lot of people seem to like, then there's some place called sealingtek which one of my buddy's shops can get fast and is a cheap chinese one it looks like. What do you normally run [MENTION=127012]4Runnermex[/MENTION] ?

Like I said, it just has to work for a few months, and I live at high elevation so make quite a bit under the normal power levels. Anyone think the sealingtek setup can work?

 

[4Runnermex]

I've used this 3 times. No issues, comes with all you need except water pump, timing belt, thermostat, knock sensor harness.

Change the knock sensor harness. Feel free to contact me if you have questions.

It's a pretty fun detailed job. Easy if you just have the simple tools. Torque wrench most important.

I watched a video on you tube by: worsethanchiggers

Shows one side but it's the same for both. To me it's a lot easier to have the engine out on the engine stand.

 

[UnderFire]

What head gaskets is everyone running? I saw [MENTION=65101]BrianSD_42[/MENTION] ran all Toyota gaskets and that cost over a grand, I'm looking for super cheap and KNOWN to work. My heads are blown and I picked up some "new" ones and want to do it cheaply, I don't care enough about my engine and just want it to run for 6 months so I can swap something in over the summer or 18 months tops so I can graduate before it grenades.

The O'reilly kit is a $400 FelPro set which a lot of people seem to like, then there's some place called sealingtek which one of my buddy's shops can get fast and is a cheap chinese one it looks like. What do you normally run [MENTION=127012]4Runnermex[/MENTION] ?

Like I said, it just has to work for a few months, and I live at high elevation so make quite a bit under the normal power levels. Anyone think the sealingtek setup can work?

All Fel-Pro on my recent top end rebuild. The only other brand I would use for a HG is Cometic.

 

[4Runnermex]

The torque specs and sequence you can find online. If you can't find them I have the FSM here I can send you some pics of the reassembly