4Runner 5th Gen - Last of the Dinosaurs

[thennen]

Not changing a design is not alway a good thing. Especially, when your competition can change faster to industry trends. Look at Harley Davidson. Their sales are tanking while other brands, who saw the writing on the wall for the cruiser market, came out with bikes for the new upcoming generation of riders and are doing ok in a very tough motorcycle market right now.

Toyota resale value is mainly due to their reliability. If it came out that all 5th Gen 4Runners were prone to some engine mechanical issue that materialized after the warranty expired that Toyota would not cover I guarantee you the resale values would tank. You couldn’t give away a 4Runner.


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I dunno. I’m a buyer. Even with all the ridiculously more advanced vehicles available to me at the time, I bought a new 2019 4Runner in 2018. Not everyone turns up their nose at ‘dated’ vehicles. The fact that Toyota avoids those engine problems, while others just live with them, is better by far in my view.

 

[dan.schweizer]

I have owned many Toyotas over the years between my wife and I.

- 1982 Toyota Celica GT
- 1985 Toyota 4X4 Pickup - original owner and it sits in my garage today
- 2001 Toyota Camry
- 2009 Toyota RAV4
- 2016 Toyota 4Runner (My daily driver)
- 2019 Toyota Highlander (wife’s car)

My wife and I have been discussing getting a convertible or Jeep as a “fun” vehicle. I’m not a Chrysler fan so we had been looking at convertibles and then along comes the Ford Bronco and our interest is peaked.

Did I reserve one? Yes - the $100 is refundable and I am willing to take a risk

Will I buy one? Maybe - depends on how it drives and what the fit and finish looks like. The dealers better have something for those interested to look at and test drive.

Will I get rid of the 4Runner? Maybe.... I know the Ford won’t be as reliability as a Toyota, but I know many people with many thousands of miles on their Ford trucks (my brother has over 200K) with basically zero issues.

Do I think this thread has any value on a 4Runner forum? Not really, as most people are way biased to what they currently own and have a hard time admitting that other manufactures may be more forward thinking than their current brand. This goes across all forums I follow from guns, to motorcycles to cameras to vehicles.

But....if there wasn’t competition like this there would not be innovation, and a new entry into the off-road market can only make things better as it steps up the game for everyone else. The Jeep/Bronco model with multiple vehicle models and lots of options/accessories is not really the way Toyota operates so I don’t ever expect them to jump into this type of business model. I’m not going to hold out hoping they come out with a competitor. They missed that train with the FJ40 which could have been a Jeep killer if they had done it correctly back then. Time will tell if Ford got this one right.


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[tls3601]

Very astute assessment sir! I totally agree had Toyota continued to build and refine the FJ40 it was and would still be a Jeep killer in ALL aspects. Instead they built a wagon and went the “safe” route instead of continuing in their hard core, no nonsense utility 4X4. Even back then maybe a “focus” group or “market analysis” told them to do that. So instead of building a vehicle someone could be passionate about because it was so purpose built, they have decided to build vehicles that instill no passion but basically won’t break. There is a difference, bring back the passion Yota! I own 2 FJ40’s and a ‘19 Pro. The Pro is a great vehicle but I am passionate about the 40’s. People will be passionate about the Bronco as it is unique and quite purpose built. When was the last time someone was passionate about a station wagon???? Stop focusing on corporate profits and build something purpose built.

 

[GupsT4R]

Coming from a family of Mercedes and BMW's i can safely say that my 08 Sport has been by far the most reliable vehicle. Tho its not as comfy or rides as nice as a ML350 the electronics in those things are nightmares as i have seen first hand.

But everything has its place and people may say negative things about Jeep but every 5th driveway in my town has one. I couldn't fathom getting rid of my 08 Sport for a new Jeep or Euro.

The 5th Gens are beautiful but as i cant get a TRD Pro with Torsen Diff Ill stick to my old reliable Dinosaur for now.

 

[thennen]

Very astute assessment sir! I totally agree had Toyota continued to build and refine the FJ40 it was and would still be a Jeep killer in ALL aspects. Instead they built a wagon and went the “safe” route instead of continuing in their hard core, no nonsense utility 4X4. Even back then maybe a “focus” group or “market analysis” told them to do that. So instead of building a vehicle someone could be passionate about because it was so purpose built, they have decided to build vehicles that instill no passion but basically won’t break. There is a difference, bring back the passion Yota! I own 2 FJ40’s and a ‘19 Pro. The Pro is a great vehicle but I am passionate about the 40’s. People will be passionate about the Bronco as it is unique and quite purpose built. When was the last time someone was passionate about a station wagon???? Stop focusing on corporate profits and build something purpose built.

It’s easy to say, “Stop focusing on corporate profits” when you’re not responsible for turning a profit. Every corporation focuses on corporate profits. Ford isn’t planning to produce the “purpose built” Bronco for free. I guarantee you this: if it doesn’t result in corporate profits for Ford, it’ll be shut down.

 

[83Mule]

It's not too late for Toyota to ''Diversify'' the 4 Runner line-up........they could still offer a Base model with rubber mats and a 3'' Pro suspension, gear the axles and offer a low range T-case as well as a different bumper treatment for approach. They could could offer a Limited that was loaded with the ''goodies'' but offer it in the standard bodywork instead of the ugly treatment it gets now. All the possibilities to equal the Bronco or Jeep are within their ability.....they just don't care to do it. Honda lost their way and I hope Toyota can get aggressive and compete before they lose it. They failed by letting the FJ die after making few useful updates.....don't want to see the 4Runner turn into a Soccer Mom car. At least I can drive the Mule when I want a taste of simple and rugged!

 

[04rnr]

I'm making a very safe bet....

so you dont know, just ASSUMING, got it.

 

[AlpineAspirations]

Reading these posts make me think that many on this forum are out of touch with the value proposition that sells most 4Runners: Value & Reliability. That’s it.

Toyota doesn’t update their model line because they don’t have to and doing so would introduce unnecessary cost and risk that would not create additional value for their customer base.

Yeah, my Jeep has a turbo-diesel engine, bi-xenon headlights, air-conditioned seats, pano sunroof, automatic wipers and a myriad of other features. It was also over $10k more than my ORP and has a half-dozen recalls and a class action lawsuit.

 

[Jernik]

Reading these posts make me think that many on this forum are out of touch with the value proposition that sells most 4Runners: Value & Reliability. That’s it.

Toyota doesn’t update their model line because they don’t have to and doing so would introduce unnecessary cost and risk that would not create additional value for their customer base.

Well said. :cheers:

Guess I'm getting old, or have been old. When we were first looking at the 4R back in 2014, we also shopped/drove the Jeep Grand Cherokee (I've mentioned many times the 04 Grand Cherokee we traded for the 4R was a vehicle we really liked). I found the new GC too car-like. The fancy "infotainment" I found unnecessary and honestly too busy to use while driving down the road. Touch screen inputs, finding the right menu/submenu to do basically anything... no thanks.

The simplicity of function over form in the 4R is what sold it. Plus I find it comfortable even on long trips. My list of annoyances is minor, and none interfere with my overall enjoyment of the vehicle. These same traits, the simplicity (plus reliability) is why 6 years later we added our second Toyota (a Tundra) to our driveway.

Good God, I just realized I may have become a Toyota fanboi... :faint2:

 

[mteolus]

100,000 more Wranglers than the 4Runner. Seems like with a refreshed version of the 4Runner those numbers would go way up. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jeep Wrangler sales:
2018 240, 032
2019 228,042

Toyota 4Runner sales:
2018 139,694
2019 131,864

 

[AZ Craig]

100,000 more Wranglers than the 4Runner. Seems like with a refreshed version of the 4Runner those numbers would go way up. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jeep Wrangler sales:
2018 240, 032
2019 228,042

Toyota 4Runner sales:
2018 139,694
2019 131,864

Yes, but look at the overall annual sales for the 5th generation:

2010 46,531
2011 44,316
2012 48,753
2013 48,735
2014 77,006
2015 97,034
2016 111,952
2017 128,296
2018 139,694
2019 131,864

Toyota basically just did a light refresh in 2014 to clean up the front and rear styling (which to this day I think looked super dated) as other BoF vehicles disappeared from the market, and sales took off and built year over year until 2019. The FJ was also cancelled in the US after 2014 and was already losing momentum the last few years it was on sale. This probably pushed some other Toyota SUV buyers into 4Runners.

My guess is 2019 may have been hurt a bit also by folks waiting for the 2020 updates once they were all announced. I would still be driving my 2016 if not for the 2020 Pro fixing nearly every equipment gap I wanted other than blind spot monitoring and a power lift gate.

2020 is going to be a sales disaster year over year for most vehicles I imagine, but it will be interesting to see if things continue downward in 2021 (assuming the automotive market returns to any degree of normalcy and avoids other sustained periods of ugliness). The JL Wrangler in combination with some other people waking up and realizing they'd be better off with a unibody cross over could also starting to be cutting into sales a bit.

 

[thennen]

100,000 more Wranglers than the 4Runner. Seems like with a refreshed version of the 4Runner those numbers would go way up. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jeep Wrangler sales:
2018 240, 032
2019 228,042

Toyota 4Runner sales:
2018 139,694
2019 131,864

Generally speaking, people who buy a Wrangler want a Jeep. I see a lot of soccer moms, and live next door to one, who drive Wranglers. They off-road them as much as most 4Runner drivers, which is to say, rarely or not at all.

The Wrangler and 4Runner aren't direct competitors, their target buyers simply overlap a little. So comparing sales between the two doesn't mean much. Since introduction, Gen5 sales have tripled, which is probably the best measurement of how good a job Toyota did/is doing. If I had something going that well, I'd be hesitant to make wholesale changes too, because my customer base is currently solidly behind what I've been doing. I want to bring them along to my next version, while attracting additional buyers by adding some things. Gotta be a tough job for any automaker. Witness Jeep and their Gladiator. Beginning to look like an expensive experiment.

 

[ravens_wood]

I dunno. I’m a buyer. Even with all the ridiculously more advanced vehicles available to me at the time, I bought a new 2019 4Runner in 2018. Not everyone turns up their nose at ‘dated’ vehicles. The fact that Toyota avoids those engine problems, while others just live with them, is better by far in my view.

Same. The 4Runner's simplicity was a selling point for me.

After my previous vehicle with all the bells and whistles experienced engine failure at 50K (luckily covered by a recall) I wanted simple and reliable.

 

[lunarsnowstorm]

100,000 more Wranglers than the 4Runner. Seems like with a refreshed version of the 4Runner those numbers would go way up. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jeep Wrangler sales:
2018 240, 032
2019 228,042

Toyota 4Runner sales:
2018 139,694
2019 131,864

Absolutely. A refreshed version is needed. All I ask of Toyota would be get rid of that fugly front end and replace with a new version with round headlights. Otherwise the Runner is a reliable hammer.

 

[Jetboy]

Reading these posts make me think that many on this forum are out of touch with the value proposition that sells most 4Runners: Value & Reliability. That’s it.

Toyota doesn’t update their model line because they don’t have to and doing so would introduce unnecessary cost and risk that would not create additional value for their customer base.

Yeah, my Jeep has a turbo-diesel engine, bi-xenon headlights, air-conditioned seats, pano sunroof, automatic wipers and a myriad of other features. It was also over $10k more than my ORP and has a half-dozen recalls and a class action lawsuit.

Generally I agree. Or at least I used to. The value is starting to become an open question. A 4Runner isn't cheap anymore. 5 years ago a base model 4x4 SR5 was $33k. I bought a TRD OR Premium with KDSS for $37k OTD. That was a pretty decent value. And they had a 17-21mpg rating. Now they are a 16/19mpg (what happened?), and the base price is somewhere around $37k. Inflation happens, but the value proposition is starting to fall as the competition improves. Especially at the top end. $50K for a TRD Pro?

When you compare the cost to get one ready to go play in the dirt, the MSRP of a bronco is cheaper than what it would cost just to get the 4Runner comparably capable. - you're going to add around $10k in LT suspension, tires. A winch and mounts, skid plates, BMC, etc. And that's just to get to a 34" tire that it can barely turn. Add another $5k for gearing and a front locker. And if you really wanted something in the same performance category - you're also looking another $7k for a supercharger, and another $5k for a lefty transfer case. You could literally buy a 4Runner AND a new Bronco for less than what it would cost to build a 4Runner to be comparable off-road. And by that point the Bronco is probably better on the road.

They're different segments to me. But I think the Bronco just re-arranged the value proposition for everyone who wants to go on the more difficult offroad terrain. Rubicons and Raptors were $$$. The Bronco should run circles around them both in technical terrain for a lot less $. The ability to buy the base model with the sasquatch package really is a game changer in the market. Nothing comes close on price. ATRAC included in the SR5 is really the only thing kinda close I can think of. Base model Tacomas are pretty crappy offroad with open/open diffs and no traction control. You have to go all the way up to the TRD OR before you get ATRAC or rear locker. Jeep makes you go way up in the option set too.

If you could add a $3000 option package on a 4Runner base to get a 2" lift, 35" tires, low range axle gearing, and front/rear lockers and a extra low range transfer case - would anyone not choose it?

 

[apc9199]

I don't want to add any fuel to these flames, but I feel that more personal experiences might help to clarify certain peoples opinions about these things. I was driving a Jeep Liberty CRD before buying my 2015 Trail 4R. The Jeep was obviously a trainwreck of an engineering and management disaster, being a Diamler Chrysler vehicle. I miss the engine terribly (so fast, so much power!) but that is about it. The rest of the vehicle was like owning a boat. I was spending more maintaining the damn vehicle than a payment on a new(used) vehicle would be. I contemplated several vehicles for YEARS while dealing with the Jeep, which was as much a hobby vehicle as it was a daily driver. I thought about a Wrangler, a Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel, a Chevy Colorado diesel, a VW Touareg Diesel, then realized that these were all TERRIBLE ideas given the diesel attitude in this country and the strangle hold the EPA has on that market. So, I started looking at regular gasoline vehicles. Once I narrowed it down to the ones that weren't depressingly boring, terribly unreliable and didn't feel like the interiors were put together by 4th graders, I bought a 4Runner!

In all honesty, you can squawk about lack of features and lack of functional updates but there is a reason that people still covet Toyota like some kind of god. Its the fact that you can, by and large, expect to get 300K miles out of most of their vehicles with not much more than regular maintenance. Of course lemons exist and some people have out of the ordinary experiences. Just remember, that for every person that complains about a terrible experience with Toyota there are thousands that are perfectly happy that you DON'T hear from. Meanwhile, can anyone here name a 4Runner competitor in any regard that hasn't been plagued with recalls, TSB's, constant maintenance issues or a general feeling of "cheapness" that practically guarantees the thing won't last 200K, much less 300K miles (for a competitive price)? To me the choice was clear as crystal. There was no other option except a Toyota for something that I am going to be taking into the back country for a week or more at a time. Just my opinion on the matter.

 

[sonjason]

I am on the side of the fence that is 1000% happy with my 4R. It's a stock 2016 Trail with KDSS, and will likely stay that way (has a 3/4 length Front Runner rack on top I have never used since I bought it CPO earlier this year).

I am a 45 year old male, and love that it will haul my wife and kids and dog, all of our crap, and we can go pretty much anywhere we want without worrying too much and still be comfortable. No, maybe not to the top of some rock pile, but who cares for most use case scenarios? I do not.

Would I like ventilated/cooled seats, yes. Can't think of one other feature I want. Something about this old school BoF SUV that just excites me, even if it is a dinosaur.

 

[thennen]

I am on the side of the fence that is 1000% happy with my 4R. It's a stock 2016 Trail with KDSS, and will likely stay that way (has a 3/4 length Front Runner rack on top I have never used since I bought it CPO earlier this year).

I am a 45 year old male, and love that it will haul my wife and kids and dog, all of our crap, and we can go pretty much anywhere we want without worrying too much and still be comfortable. No, maybe not to the top of some rock pile, but who cares for most use case scenarios? I do not.

Would I like ventilated/cooled seats, yes. Can't think of one other feature I want. Something about this old school BoF SUV that just excites me, even if it is a dinosaur.

I'm right with you.

 

[tls3601]

I also kind of like that it is a Dinosaur as well. Simple is good, and less likely to break when way out there. I would just like them to give us a little more capability, clearance and a removable hardtop like the original. Is that asking for too much?

 

[rushrunner]

We got the auto back window down. That is all we need.