A tale of two tires

[bamma]

About two weeks ago we had an ice storm in Portland. My wife was working and came home in the evening the day of the storm and got stuck in her 5th gen 4runner with BFG KO2s. She was spinning and sliding backwards. I was able to take my 4th gen with General Grabber AT2s and pick her up. Had to back up her car and park it until the next day.

I was sliding too, it was crazy, but my Generals were the difference maker. My wife has a limited 5th gen and the rims have very few tire options (didn't realize that is what Toyota meant by Limited). Wish the at3 or at2 fit her wheels.

Both tires are severe snow rated and both are less than a year old w approx 5k Miles each. The Generals were about 40% cheaper.

 

[cyclist]

Big difference between all-seasons that are "snowflake" certified, and dedicated snow and ice tires. Below 40-45 degrees, the rubber compound is a huge factor.

More sipes and less large blocks are beneficial on snow and ice. If you're trying to do a 1 tire fits all seasons, you're pretty much spot on. Sort of like having one pair of shoes in your closet. Your wife probably wouldn't go for that. Tell her she needs another set of shoes for Thanksgiving through April, and get a good set of dedicated winter tires. Girls like shoes right?

 

[bamma]

Big difference between all-seasons that are "snowflake" certified, and dedicated snow and ice tires. Below 40-45 degrees, the rubber compound is a huge factor.

More sipes and less large blocks are beneficial on snow and ice. If you're trying to do a 1 tire fits all seasons, you're pretty much spot on. Sort of like having one pair of shoes in your closet. Your wife probably wouldn't go for that. Tell her she needs another set of shoes for Thanksgiving through April, and get a good set of dedicated winter tires. Girls like shoes right?

I understand and agree on the benefit of snow and ice tires. If I lived somewhere more extreme, I would get them. We get snow rarely in Portland, and this is the first ice storm I have seen here, so generally no need for snow tires. I have snowflake tires as I drive through the I5 pass which often requires them. None of this is the point of the thread though.

I was just surprised at the massive difference between two all terrain snow rated tires, especially because the better performing tire was so much cheaper. Especially as the Generals have been referred to as BFG Clones (clones of the original bfg at).

 

[t-man]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, BFG sucks!!! I wasn't impressed with them in any situation, and I can't believe people think they are good in sand, especially in snow. First snow fall came last year and I thought I was going to die! Grandma passed me in her Corsica and it was time to go. I switched back to my stock sized Hankook ATM's until my new Hankook MT's showed up and I had them installed. My 35" MT makes those all terrains look like a street slick.
Fact is, bfg's rubber is just to hard which they do to make them last a long time.

 

[JB.]

In science, "massive" effects nearly always point to experimental shortcomings rather than to actual effect size.

But, I have no trouble believing that KO2s somewhat underperform some other snowflake (and some non-snowflake) ATs in snow.

Design parameters come with tradeoffs. That tough desert performance doesn't come free but the presence of the snowflake contradicts any notion that reasonably new KO2s would "suck" in snow.

 

[bamma]

In science, "massive" effects nearly always point to experimental shortcomings rather than to actual effect size.

But, I have no trouble believing that KO2s somewhat underperform some other snowflake (and some non-snowflake) ATs in snow.

Design parameters come with tradeoffs. That tough desert performance doesn't come free but the presence of the snowflake contradicts any notion that reasonably new KO2s would "suck" in snow.

I agree there are a lot of variables at play. The 5th gen atrac Is supposed to be more aggressive. Psi differences could play a part. Vehicle weight (heavier=more friction) etc. IMO, most of the variables point to the 5th gen performing better on sheet ice.

And I inferred they suck on ice, not snow. And the difference was massive. Like most drivers I do mostly on road with a mixture of off road. Ats are great for me. But I am shocked I have to give up that amount of safety for "tough desert performance". Wish I would have gone with Duratracs, or that the generals came in a 20" version. Can't afford to get rid of brand new tires.

FWIW, both have been great offroad, mostly go get to backcountry whitewater put-ins.

Edit: I see you have the same tires so I see why you'd want to justify them as a good tire.

 

[JB.]

I agree there are a lot of variables at play. The 5th gen atrac Is supposed to be more aggressive. Psi differences could play a part. Vehicle weight (heavier=more friction) etc. IMO, most of the variables point to the 5th gen performing better on sheet ice.

And I inferred they suck on ice, not snow. And the difference was massive. Like most drivers I do mostly on road with a mixture of off road. Ats are great for me. But I am shocked I have to give up that amount of safety for "tough desert performance". Wish I would have gone with Duratracs, or that the generals came in a 20" version. Can't afford to get rid of brand new tires.

FWIW, both have been great offroad, mostly go get to backcountry whitewater put-ins.

Edit: I see you have the same tires so I see why you'd want to justify them as a good tire.

Well, ya gotta admit, if I was being a fan boy I have a peculiar way of going about it.

I still think a "massive" difference is more likely to represent comparison error (not an indictment) than an accurate representation -- at least from my perspective as someone who wasn't there, but I understand your perspective as the person who was.

Hey, all you can do is report. All I know is that internet tire evaluations endlessly run the gamut from "sucks" to "awesome". IOW, mostly noise with any signal being nearly impossibly hidden.

 

[snowboardwcu]

all you can do is report.

i'm grateful for this. i had done a lot of research into tires and decided to go with KO2's as soon as I saved enough. I live in Philly; we've had awful winters the past few years and would require snow/ice performance over desert/off roading. not sure i can afford a set dedicated for winter.

looks like i have more research to do. thanks guys.

 

[Tooltime19]

I quit using BFG years ago due to their ultra hard compounds with the A/T. On road they were horrible, in the rain, snow they were horrible, and dont even mention ice...
I reluctantly switched back to the new KO-2's, but only after speaking at length with an actual BFG engineer. I tried the new tires, and I am here to say, for everything I have thrown at them, and again for those who follow any of my posts and replies, know Im not easy on my tires. I am ocd when it comes to finding the right air pressure for the given terrain. I also keep close tabs on my alignment and tire rotations. These new KO-2's have surpassed my expectations in every terrain and most recently lots of snow and ice, but not icy pavement roads, only ice beneath the snow. On dry roads, they are pretty great for an A/T tire, and surprisingly quiet as well.
The General Grabber A/T's are also a very well performing tire. Just my .02 for what its worth.
:thumb:

 

[bamma]

i'm grateful for this. i had done a lot of research into tires and decided to go with KO2's as soon as I saved enough. I live in Philly; we've had awful winters the past few years and would require snow/ice performance over desert/off roading. not sure i can afford a set dedicated for winter.

looks like i have more research to do. thanks guys.

I found another thread on here earlier where someone said the KO2 sucked on ice. Wish I had seen it before I laid out nearly a grand for tires I don't trust. I hear great things about the Cooper At3, I just wanted a snowflake tire on my rig too avoid otherwise required chains in thr Oregon mountains.

 

[snowboardwcu]

I hear great things about the Cooper At3, I just wanted a snowflake tire on my rig too avoid otherwise required chains in thr Oregon mountains.

well we just got about 20" of snow in the last day.

i have heard almost nothing but negative reviews on the coopers, mostly due to odd balancing issues and noise. even more research to do....:wacko:

 

[bamma]

well we just got about 20" of snow in the last day.

i have heard almost nothing but negative reviews on the coopers, mostly due to odd balancing issues and noise. even more research to do....:wacko:

I have liked the Generals. No complaints. I just read a study (on here somewhere iirc) on offroad tires and the Coopers killed the competition. The General was rated good on road but so so off road. But long tread life and low price.

Edit: Here is the study. Came out right before the ko2 tire was released.
http://expeditionportal.com/where-the-rubber-meets-the-road/

 

[snowboardwcu]

I have liked the Generals. No complaints. I just read a study (on here somewhere iirc) on offroad tires and the Coopers killed the competition. The General was rated good on road but so so off road. But long tread life and low price.

Edit: Here is the study. Came out right before the ko2 tire was released.
Where the Rubber Meets the Road | Expedition Portal

too funny i've read this as well. perhaps i'll add the coopers back to the possibles list.

i have a buddy that has the grabbers on his F150, loves them. probably down to the two of them. i wish i had a garage to swap tires on when it snows, that would solve a lot of this for me

 

[JB.]

[MENTION=83135]bamma[/MENTION]

Thought you might be interested to know that when I compared pictures of KO2s to Grabber ATs (LT), the KO2 has noticeably less siping (also less than KO1).

Again, I don't find it hard to believe that the KO2 might not be a top AT ice performer but, if true, rubber firmness may have nothing to do with it. The advertised increase in gravel road tread life for KO2 may simply be due to the sipe reduction which should reduce tread chunking over time. The retention of the snowflake logo suggests this trade-off was not overly large -- at least for the typical snow conditions that the test uses. The KO2 seemed to have more void so if there's an ice disadvantage compared to Grabber, it could conceivably be offset by a KO2 advantage in certain types of snow. Who knows.

But back to ice -- it seems reasonable that one tire could be just above the traction threshold and one tire just below and the difference could be characterized as a massive (go vs no-go) even while parameters on paper could be reasonably close. Relatively small differences at just the right crossover threshold could indeed feel pretty big under the right circumstances.

Btw, if you wonder why I was so automatically skeptical, just head over to the tire rack surveys and notice which AT tire is top rated in snow and ice (spoiler, KO2). No, I don't put any stock in the Tire Rack surveys but they illustrate how problematic anecdote is -- isolated or aggregated. Heck, formal tire testing is surprisingly difficult.