All over the road

[mform]

First, I hate dumb posts as much as the next guy, but will take the chance here and maybe come away with some good advice.

For the first 8 or 9K miles, I essentially drove my '13TE to and from work....6 miles each way, 40mph, etc. Never racked up the 100-200 mile long interstate drives, preferring to take the car for better fuel economy. However, recent life/work changes have me (temporarily) doing these longer drives pretty regularly.

And I'm not digging it. The thing just does not track straight. The endless steering corrections, some of them pretty significant, are gnawing at me. It makes for a very non-relaxing drive. Alignment is spot-on factory settings, tires properly inflated, etc. No other noticeable issues, noises, etc. Tire rotations make no difference.

The only seemingly meaningful change from stock are the Cooper AT3s.

Questions:
1. Just me? Never rule that one out.
2. Other AT3-shod trucks with similar issues?
3. Did something break? Cant see anything, and no other symptoms.
3. What fixes work?: 5100's, alignment settings, etc.
4. STFU because that's just the way it is. Again, never rule that one out.

Thanks....

 

[ToyotaDoodz]

Is it happening on the same stretch of road each time, or is it everywhere all the time, or only above a certain speed? Has it been windy? When it happens, are the lanes cupped (worn)? How fast are you driving? What PSI do you run in front and back?

Just trying to draw out variables and specifics since we cant see your vehicle.

 

[philsey]

Mine was the same way ... annoying as hell.

This is a very-often reported problem, and an alignment, plus getting the caster set to +4* made the world right for me and many others. Don't mess with anything else 'til you do this.

Toyota specs for caster are (IIRC) 2.5 to 4 deg. So don't let the shop tell you it's in spec. Insist that it be as close to 4* as possible (and it is possible), AND get a print out of the settings.

 

[RedSled]

The only seemingly meaningful change from stock are the Cooper AT3s.

I think you answered your own question,It would be nice if you had a bud you could borrow his tires from to check it out. Or go to tire shop,Tell them your problem, Maybe they have some you can try.

 

[Swarty]

Depends on you and so many other things...

More caster will definitely help from the sound of it, the suspension is soft IMO but tracking shouldn't be frightening. :scared: Bilsteins or stiffer springs would prob help too, especially if this is a pavement princess.

What had you driven previously? I had an mr2 set for autocross that I sold when I bought my 4runner. There isn't a thing in the world I could do to make the 4runner drive at the precision of that car or ever feel as planted so if you are switching from a street machine to an SUV just be ready for the change, especially the body movement, I spent my first 2 months over correcting for the body sway.

Also like toyotadoodz said the street and conditions matter. My MR2 at 70 didn't even register cross winds and would sit into the ruts like they were rails. My 4runner at 45+ starts to sways as soon as there is a breeze and it also wants to slalom in the ruts like they are a half pipe but that is key to offroading capability, the truck tries to get on top of whatever it's driving on.

My friends lifted jeep is terrifying above 50 for the same reason. I feel like we are all over the road in his soft sprung lifted wrangler.

Good luck!

 

[DannyLlama]

Mine was the same way ... annoying as hell.

This is a very-often reported problem, and an alignment, plus getting the caster set to +4* made the world right for me and many others. Don't mess with anything else 'til you do this.

Toyota specs for caster are (IIRC) 2.5 to 4 deg. So don't let the shop tell you it's in spec. Insist that it be as close to 4* as possible (and it is possible), AND get a print out of the settings.

This is for all 4 tires? and even with no lift?

 

[Gunny69]

I too am wondering about this. I have a 2014 SR5 2wd no lift. I have the same problem with the endless steering corrections and very tiring drive on trips. Here is my printout. So basically from what I've read the right side caster is good I just need them to get the left side caster closer to 4?

 

[drewm]

I too am wondering about this. I have a 2014 SR5 2wd no lift. I have the same problem with the endless steering corrections and very tiring drive on trips. Here is my printout. So basically from what I've read the right side caster is good I just need them to get the left side caster closer to 4?

Wow, I'm amazed they finished the car like that, that much of a difference of caster will make it drive horribly. Sometimes they do that to adjust for the crown of the road, although when I get all my cars aligned, I tell them I want caster set equal. I run caster at 3.8deg each side. Any reasonable shop should be able to get caster on each side within .1deg of each other for it to not pull to one side.

 

[1engineer]

This is for all 4 tires? and even with no lift?

Yes. I don't know who started the rumor that stock suspension can't get to/close to +4 caster. It is common. Now, everyone's suspension is a little different from the factory. That's why they make it adjustable! So you might be able to get to 3.5 and your buddy with the exact same vehicle might be able to get to 2.8 and the guy down the street with your vehicle might be able to get to 4. Closer to max (4) is better. I did a post about this awhile back.

I too am wondering about this. I have a 2014 SR5 2wd no lift. I have the same problem with the endless steering corrections and very tiring drive on trips. Here is my printout. So basically from what I've read the right side caster is good I just need them to get the left side caster closer to 4?

You my friend have different issues other than caster adjustment. 3.3 should be good. 0.7 is not going to help much on one side although having both side close is better. You need to try varying air pressure up to 35 or so and see if that helps.

I have over 100K miles logged with the two 5th gens that I have owned. 60K or so of that is with Cooper AT3's. They do just fine. I will say though that these vehicles do NOT handle like a car nor a CUV. They handle like a BOF truck. They are prone to side wind shear and corrections are normal on a windy day. Read [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION]'s post above. Resetting caster close to +4 is what helps the most. Next is tires with a good firm sidewall. They don't have to be LT tires but stock tires are not good at all. Next up would be shocks such as the Bilstein 5100 series. A few years ago I did tire pressure tests over a five mile stretch of interstate near my home. I went in 2 psi increments from 32 to 40 psi. 36 psi worked best as far as stability and vibration are concerned but choose what works best for you.

 

[Antman]

This is for all 4 tires? and even with no lift?

The rear has no caster adjustment, it's not needed.

 

[1engineer]

The rear has no caster adjustment, it's not needed.

I misread Danny's post. You are correct of course! I have been reading here about aftermarket UCA's needed to get to +4 and that is just not true.

 

[BigredTEX]

I misread Danny's post. You are correct of course! I have been reading here about aftermarket UCA's needed to get to +4 and that is just not true.

1E - The rumor is partially true. You can easily dial in +4 caster without aftermarket UCA's, but the closer you get to +4 the more negative camber you get. You can see it in Gunny's printout. Factory camber is 0.0 and you can't maintain that without the additional adjustment provided by the UCA's.

 

[Rushca01]

Does setting the caster angle at 4 wear the tires unevenly?

 

[SigSense]

Does setting the caster angle at 4 wear the tires unevenly?

No, it won't affect tire wear. Caster is set so that your car will tend to go straight ahead. Positive caster has the effect of making your front wheels act as if your vehicle was being pulled from the front so that they will line up behind the point of pull.

 

[Ryan1975]

Yes. I don't know who started the rumor that stock suspension can't get to/close to +4 caster. It is common. Now, everyone's suspension is a little different from the factory. That's why they make it adjustable! So you might be able to get to 3.5 and your buddy with the exact same vehicle might be able to get to 2.8 and the guy down the street with your vehicle might be able to get to 4. Closer to max (4) is better. I did a post about this awhile back.

You my friend have different issues other than caster adjustment. 3.3 should be good. 0.7 is not going to help much on one side although having both side close is better. You need to try varying air pressure up to 35 or so and see if that helps.

I have over 100K miles logged with the two 5th gens that I have owned. 60K or so of that is with Cooper AT3's. They do just fine. I will say though that these vehicles do NOT handle like a car nor a CUV. They handle like a BOF truck. They are prone to side wind shear and corrections are normal on a windy day. Read [MENTION=51186]philsey[/MENTION]'s post above. Resetting caster close to +4 is what helps the most. Next is tires with a good firm sidewall. They don't have to be LT tires but stock tires are not good at all. Next up would be shocks such as the Bilstein 5100 series. A few years ago I did tire pressure tests over a five mile stretch of interstate near my home. I went in 2 psi increments from 32 to 40 psi. 36 psi worked best as far as stability and vibration are concerned but choose what works best for you.

What's the recommended alignment specs for a ToyoTec 3" lift with the UCRs? I've been on stock alignment specs since the lift was installed 2yrs and 25k miles ago - no appreciable wear patterns on the tires but the truck is pretty dang floaty. I'd like to go more aggressive when I get the bushings replaced in May (the upper control arm recall bushings)

Thoughts?

 

[1engineer]

1E - The rumor is partially true. You can easily dial in +4 caster without aftermarket UCA's, but the closer you get to +4 the more negative camber you get. You can see it in Gunny's printout. Factory camber is 0.0 and you can't maintain that without the additional adjustment provided by the UCA's.

Yes. My point was someone putting 5100's on at .85 or something piddlety like that. Some members were saying you had to have aftermarket UCA's to get the proper adjustment. What a lot of new guys don't understand is with aftermarket UCA's comes more maintenance. My point is if the vehicle can get aligned to spec and it drives OK for you then aftermarket UCA's are not required.
Here's the deal: Everyone gets their 4Runner and if you checked alignment on them they would be different. I would like [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] or Scott to weigh in on this as they do (did) it to a LOT of vehicles.

Now, do you HAVE to get to +4 caster? No, not at all. Mine is about +2.3 and it drives just fine...to me. Those who are complaining should have their alignment checked and have the caster pushed up a bit to see if that helps.
Alignment is one thing to check.
Tire pressures are another.
Tire type and construction is another.
Better shocks always help.

What's the recommended alignment specs for a ToyoTec 3" lift with the UCRs? I've been on stock alignment specs since the lift was installed 2yrs and 25k miles ago - no appreciable wear patterns on the tires but the truck is pretty dang floaty. I'd like to go more aggressive when I get the bushings replaced in May (the upper control arm recall bushings)

Thoughts?

Stock alignment specs are fine IMO. If you can push the caster up a bit without screwing up camber then that's even better. Now, if you are driving aggressively off road and you don't mind tire wear then the sky's the limit on your set up lol.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Everyone's truck is different. Alignment specs will vary. I generally don't respond to subjective matters. For example, is the ride stiff or rough? does it feel mushy? do these wheels look good? is there a lot of wind noise with your rack? are those tires noisy? is that exhaust too loud?

There are simply too many subjective opinions of what people believe. What may be too loud for you, may not be loud enough for me (in the case of mufflers).

With that said, so do people's perception of what drives well and what doesn't. I don't think the OP in this situation is necessarily complaining about nothing. I see that he's owned some previous generation 4Rs. In order for us to be able to help determine if there is something that can be improved with the "perception" of wandering we'll need facts.

1. alignment specs
2. tire pressure and tire rating
3. different stretches of road with similar speeds


The OP needs to take the current truck as it sits with current tire pressure readings and find 3 roads where he feels it the worst. Then, go to a competent alignment shop, explain his situation, get an alignment and print out. He can request for 4* caster as long as it doesn't sacrifice camber. Go back to the same 3 roads while using a similar amount of speed and report back to us.

I can almost guarantee that the truck will drive differently. The key is, will it drive significantly different enough for the OP to be happy?

 

[ToxPath]

I have the identical problem. 2012 TE with copper AT3's (275's) installed immediately after purchase. I had the caster adjusted to around 3.5 at the dealership and it helped some. I run higher tire pressure in the front (~37 lbs) compared to the rear (~35 lbs) and that helped a little as well. I've wondered if it is a tire thing but the Coopers are well rated and I drove less than 100 miles with the factory tires.

Its not an SUV thing because I also have a 2000 landcruiser and a 1995 Tacoma 4WD that are much easier to maintain a constant lane placement. Thinking about going to Bilstein shocks to see if that helps.

There is something different with the power steering with the 4runner compared to my other Toyota's. I just dont get the same feedback from the the wheel at highway speeds that allow for those automatic little microadjustments that I normally dont even think about. It feels like it is being pushed around by the wind when its not even windy.

After 25,000 miles on the 4runner I am now adjusting to the steering feel and dont think about it as much as I used to.

 

[mform]

Good inputs all around as usual. Thanks everyone.

Next step is to try some pressure adjustments because its easy and quick. I'll be driving one of the same stretches of interstate again tomorrow that led to original post, so can cross check on that variable.

Then I'll get it into my local alignment shop at the end of next week. They're great and will get the adjustments made. (Current set up was checked by dealer....they are actually okay for a dealer, but the other guys are specialists). Will be making the same drive as tomorrow in about two weeks, so I can gauge the impact.

And I should prob get off my duff and get some 5100s installed. Been on the list for a while......

 

[dekeman]

Alignment specs will vary. I generally don't respond to subjective matters. For example, is the ride stiff or rough? does it feel mushy? do these wheels look good? is there a lot of wind noise with your rack? are those tires noisy? is that exhaust too loud?

Wise. Just like man should NEVER EVER respond to her question: "does this make me look fat?" Though you could reply: "it makes you look as though you have positive camber."