Congress Wants Your Public Lands

MtnT4R

New member
I think this is a very important article to share, especially with a group of people who loves to get out into the open country with our 4Runners, bikes, skis, rafts, and our own two feet. I used to think that our public lands were always going to be there, but its becoming more apparent that a lot of the places we enjoy are under some pretty serious threats.

Why You Should Be Pissed Congress Wants Your Public Lands
 
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I think this is a very important article to share, especially with a group of people who loves to get out into the open country with our 4Runners, bikes, skis, rafts, and our own two feet. I used to think that our public lands were always going to be there, but its becoming more apparent that a lot of the places we enjoy are under some pretty serious threats.

Why You Should Be Pissed Congress Wants Your Public Lands
thanks. public land access is always tough, with different groups of folk asserting various and often incompatible claims upon its use. in this instance i draw your attention to the first comment in the linked article:

"SHAWNB
April 22nd, 2015

Really? It says RIGHT IN THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED, Sam Morse, that:

“Murkowski [author of the bill] emphasized that her amendment…would exempt lands within NATIONAL PARKS, NATIONAL PRESERVES or NATIONAL MONUMENTS from possible transfer.”

I like what you wrote, and I’m with you in spirit. But you made this article disastrously inaccurate, and thus disastrously irresponsible.

This is a pretty major website. You have some responsibility to first check basic facts. Then hit “publish”. Thx "
 
What an amazingly slanted article. It's the author and jerks like him that don't believe in mixed use that are taking away access to "public" lands, not Congress. Not only did Clinton's land grab deprive the state of Utah of billions of dollars of fossil fuels development (while our soldiers die overseas for access to other's oil), he also deprived millions of outdoor recreationists of the freedom to enjoy the land their way. When the Grand Staircase-Escalante Monument was locked up, thousands of miles of road were closed, removing access to some of the most scenic areas in the State from any but the most dedicated backpackers.

These eco-nazis spouting off about "public land" won't have it any way but their own, and they aren't willing to share. If you're on horseback, mountain bike, ATV, 4WD, anything but two boots, you're not welcome in their world, and they really do think it's their world. If you don't recreate their way (and only their way), GTFO. It's even more galling when you look at the numbers and understand that these vocal few are the distinct minority among land users. You only hear their voice because they've got money coming in around the world from well-meaning but clueless donaters who think they're helping "protect" public lands in the West.

They're trying to do the same thing around Moab right now, pushing for a "Greater Canyonlands National Monument". This also will close thousands of miles of road, some of it iconic 4WD and mountain bike trails, most of it just access roads to scenic country and solitude that we will lose forever. They're pushing Obama to pull the same dirty stunt Clinton did, and if we don't ALL make some noise they'll get away with it. Most of you think it's probably no big deal, you'll never visit Utah anyway and couldn't care less. For those of us that live here and love this land, it would be devastating.

MtnT4R, I encourage you to become a little more aware of the facts in this fight before you start throwing articles around. That biased trash you linked was written by your enemy.
 
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It looks like we drew different conclusions to this article. While I do realize this is an opinion piece coming from what looks to be a pretty hardcore environmentalist, the article said nothing about returning more areas to wilderness or closing off public access; the whole point was that this legislation is stepping in the direction of leasing or selling large areas of land to energy companies, while denying access to people like you and me.

I grew up and live in a small town in the middle of White River National Forest, and currently live right on the national forest boundary. About 10 miles away is a Superfund cleanup site, dedicated to cleaning up the colossal mess left behind by one of the last active mining operations in the area. Mine tailings seeping into the river turned the water orange and killed off all the aquatic life back in the 70s, and now 40 years later we still get notices from our water and sanitation department of leaks into the river when machinery at the cleanup site malfunctions; they have to shut down operations and determine if any contamination got into our water supply and what damage was done to the river. So from my perspective, I am keenly aware of the nasty side effects of developing pristine land for ‘economic development’.

Right now, more than 700,000 acres of BLM land is open to more oil and gas development in southern Colorado. I am absolutely opposed to this because it effectively closes off that area to public use for the foreseeable future, and because of the damage these operations inflict:

• Colorado issued a record 6,368 drilling permits last year, six times the 1999 number, and state officials say more than 7,000 could be approved this year. Tens of thousands of new gas wells are expected on federal land alone over the next 20 years.
• Just one year ago, 1.2 million gallons of drilling mud - a cocktail of oil and chemicals - created a serious health hazard in what is known as the Garden Gulch Spill.
• From January of 2003 to March 2008 there were 1,549 spills or seepage incidents in Colorado.
Sources: Colorado | Our Public Lands
More than 700,000 acres available for oil, gas leasing in SW Colo. under BLM plan | CPR

The point is, I don’t believe that economic progress and jobs should come at the expense of destroying our natural environment and our recreational economy.

What I got out of that article is the danger of letting the states control these lands- they are much more likely to increase the number of drilling permits and outright sale of the land because they don’t have the financial resources of the federal government. This would limit the public’s access, while an energy company mines these publicly owned resources to sell back to us at a premium. Add that to the cost of these unscrupulous companies contaminating the surrounding area for someone else to clean up after they are done making their money. Does that sound like a crappy deal or am I missing something?
 
thanks. public land access is always tough, with different groups of folk asserting various and often incompatible claims upon its use. in this instance i draw your attention to the first comment in the linked article:

"SHAWNB
April 22nd, 2015

Really? It says RIGHT IN THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED, Sam Morse, that:

“Murkowski [author of the bill] emphasized that her amendment…would exempt lands within NATIONAL PARKS, NATIONAL PRESERVES or NATIONAL MONUMENTS from possible transfer.”

I like what you wrote, and I’m with you in spirit. But you made this article disastrously inaccurate, and thus disastrously irresponsible.

This is a pretty major website. You have some responsibility to first check basic facts. Then hit “publish”. Thx "


I agree that the author should have made this clear in his article, but National Parks, monuments, etc, are not really public land where you can go and do what you want. Designated campgrounds, designated roads, no camping here, no playing there, you must pay a daily fee to enter.

National Forest and BLM land are the true treasure. There is maintained road access and a handful of law enforcement officers to keep the trouble to a minimum, but otherwise you are free to wheel, camp, bike, and just enjoy the area as you please(illegal roads created by careless people are a large problem, causing some areas to be closed to public travel. When it gets bad enough the Forest Service and BLM come in and put up gates, so this is more of a problem that we brought upon ourselves). The other cause of closures of course are active mining, drilling, or logging lease in the area, which means locked gates and no access for you and me.
 
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Yah, the states have already demonstrated they'll sell anything they can get their hands on to make a buck, I'm with you there.

But I don't see a problem with the Fed opening land to responsible resource extraction (and I stress responsible). Sending our soldiers to fight overseas so we can buy Middle Eastern oil while we have untapped resources here seems horrible to me. And don't forget that most of the roads into wild areas that give us access to those areas that we so enjoy were carved by miners and loggers. Nearly every awesome trail around Moab was originally a mining road or ranchers trail.

Resource extraction doesn't have to be a rape of the land, and if we spent more time insisting on responsible extraction and less time on creating monuments that keep everybody out (and destroy local economies in the process), we'd have fewer dead soldiers, more places to drive, more places to enjoy, and cheaper gas to get there. But that's not how the author of your article thinks. He doesn't want any use of that land at all, except of course the use he prefers. That's my objection - I'm sure you and I are on the same general page in terms of land use, and I know for sure neither of us wants what that nazi wants.
 
It looks like we drew different conclusions to this article. While I do realize this is an opinion piece coming from what looks to be a pretty hardcore environmentalist, the article said nothing about returning more areas to wilderness or closing off public access; the whole point was that this legislation is stepping in the direction of leasing or selling large areas of land to energy companies, while denying access to people like you and me.

I grew up and live in a small town in the middle of White River National Forest, and currently live right on the national forest boundary. About 10 miles away is a Superfund cleanup site, dedicated to cleaning up the colossal mess left behind by one of the last active mining operations in the area. Mine tailings seeping into the river turned the water orange and killed off all the aquatic life back in the 70s, and now 40 years later we still get notices from our water and sanitation department of leaks into the river when machinery at the cleanup site malfunctions; they have to shut down operations and determine if any contamination got into our water supply and what damage was done to the river. So from my perspective, I am keenly aware of the nasty side effects of developing pristine land for ‘economic development’.

Right now, more than 700,000 acres of BLM land is open to more oil and gas development in southern Colorado. I am absolutely opposed to this because it effectively closes off that area to public use for the foreseeable future, and because of the damage these operations inflict:

• Colorado issued a record 6,368 drilling permits last year, six times the 1999 number, and state officials say more than 7,000 could be approved this year. Tens of thousands of new gas wells are expected on federal land alone over the next 20 years.
• Just one year ago, 1.2 million gallons of drilling mud - a cocktail of oil and chemicals - created a serious health hazard in what is known as the Garden Gulch Spill.
• From January of 2003 to March 2008 there were 1,549 spills or seepage incidents in Colorado.
Sources: Colorado | Our Public Lands
More than 700,000 acres available for oil, gas leasing in SW Colo. under BLM plan | CPR

The point is, I don’t believe that economic progress and jobs should come at the expense of destroying our natural environment and our recreational economy.

What I got out of that article is the danger of letting the states control these lands- they are much more likely to increase the number of drilling permits and outright sale of the land because they don’t have the financial resources of the federal government. This would limit the public’s access, while an energy company mines these publicly owned resources to sell back to us at a premium. Add that to the cost of these unscrupulous companies contaminating the surrounding area for someone else to clean up after they are done making their money. Does that sound like a crappy deal or am I missing something?

You are right. You are wrong. There are two factions you should be concerned with:

Far Left eco tree hugging hippies. They have money and if they get their way you will never be able to do anything on the land except WALK... maybe.

Far Right Slash and Burn hard core capitalists. They have money too and if they get their way you will be able to travel around and see the destruction.

Do some research and you will find many responsible groups in the middle. Unfortunately those are the least funded groups. Fortunately though, most states (California has no smart people so don't include them) are middle of the road. They want development for tax revenues and they usually try to do it responsibly. Sure, they ebb and flow to the left and right but over time they do a pretty good job of balancing development and saving the land for personal enjoyment. There will always be extreme cases to the left and right too. States sometimes F'up.

If you are level headed and logical what you will find after you research both sides is that the States usually have the most middle of the road plans that will try to please both sides. Now if you are a eco warrior then disregard everything I said and go support the Sierra Club. If you have any sense though you will realize that both sides are not wrong... or right.

Edit: A perfect example:
California has no water right? Do you know why? No, it's not because it hasn't rained enough. It's because many decades ago people with some sense knew that, as the desert in SoCal continued to grow in population they would need more water. They came up with a plan to build some dams and reservoirs that, if they were operational today, would have more than enough water to supply to that side of the mountains. Unfortunately a bunch of well financed do gooder eco nuts decided that would NOT be a good idea because a few fish and worms or something would be endangered. What is the result? Those few fish are still a few fish. They did not go extinct nor did their population grow. The people and businesses in California are now paying BILLIONS because of this and the Ag market is laying off all those people and the price of goods is going way up. All because of a few barefoot hippies who thought they knew better...
 
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What an amazingly slanted article. It's the author and jerks like him that don't believe in mixed use that are taking away access to "public" lands, not Congress. Not only did Clinton's land grab deprive the state of Utah of billions of dollars of fossil fuels development (while our soldiers die overseas for access to other's oil), he also deprived millions of outdoor recreationists of the freedom to enjoy the land their way. When the Grand Staircase-Escalante Monument was locked up, thousands of miles of road were closed, removing access to some of the most scenic areas in the State from any but the most dedicated backpackers.

These eco-nazis spouting off about "public land" won't have it any way but their own, and they aren't willing to share. If you're on horseback, mountain bike, ATV, 4WD, anything but two boots, you're not welcome in their world, and they really do think it's their world. If you don't recreate their way (and only their way), GTFO. It's even more galling when you look at the numbers and understand that these vocal few are the distinct minority among land users. You only hear their voice because they've got money coming in around the world from well-meaning but clueless donaters who think they're helping "protect" public lands in the West.

They're trying to do the same thing around Moab right now, pushing for a "Greater Canyonlands National Monument". This also will close thousands of miles of road, some of it iconic 4WD and mountain bike trails, most of it just access roads to scenic country and solitude that we will lose forever. They're pushing Obama to pull the same dirty stunt Clinton did, and if we don't ALL make some noise they'll get away with it. Most of you think it's probably no big deal, you'll never visit Utah anyway and couldn't care less. For those of us that live here and love this land, it would be devastating.

MtnT4R, I encourage you to become a little more aware of the facts in this fight before you start throwing articles around. That biased trash you linked was written by your enemy.


You forgot the part about No Dogs.
 
Yah, the states have already demonstrated they'll sell anything they can get their hands on to make a buck, I'm with you there.

But I don't see a problem with the Fed opening land to responsible resource extraction (and I stress responsible). Sending our soldiers to fight overseas so we can buy Middle Eastern oil while we have untapped resources here seems horrible to me. And don't forget that most of the roads into wild areas that give us access to those areas that we so enjoy were carved by miners and loggers. Nearly every awesome trail around Moab was originally a mining road or ranchers trail.

Resource extraction doesn't have to be a rape of the land, and if we spent more time insisting on responsible extraction and less time on creating monuments that keep everybody out (and destroy local economies in the process), we'd have fewer dead soldiers, more places to drive, more places to enjoy, and cheaper gas to get there. But that's not how the author of your article thinks. He doesn't want any use of that land at all, except of course the use he prefers. That's my objection - I'm sure you and I are on the same general page in terms of land use, and I know for sure neither of us wants what that nazi wants.

Complete agreement with you here. The real tragedy in all of these situations is the lack of responsibility and accountability. which unfortunately necessitates the ridiculous regulatory bullsh*t surrounding nearly everything we do. I am all for resource extraction if it truly minimizes impact on the land that we also rely on for our livelihood, but unfortunately that is almost never the case, as companies are too willing to undercut safety and environmental regulations when they don't think anyone is looking to pad their bottom line. The fiasco in the Middle East is an extension of this- facing tough regulations at home, its easier to send troops to secure strategic assets halfway around the world and truly screw up that region in the process while needlessly wasting American lives. Its insanity.

I can't say I disagree with you about the way that author thinks, but I do think the article puts forth some common ground where the eco-nazis, hippies, sportsmen, outdoorsmen, and outdoor recreation types can all meet on at least one topic: Don't take our livelihood and access to the land away.


Its the same in CO- every road we use was once a road to a mine, mining town, or forest fire and logging trails. These were established a long time before it was BLM and National Forest so its been a very valuable leftover from a previous age. Unfortunately we are starting to see problems from overuse and irresponsible use, which I believe you have posted about dealing with in Utah as well; people ripping around in UTVs and other very capable motorized equipment with no knowledge or respect for the sport or the area, and it gives us all a bad name.
 
Edit: A perfect example:
California has no water right? Do you know why? No, it's not because it hasn't rained enough. It's because many decades ago people with some sense knew that, as the desert in SoCal continued to grow in population they would need more water. They came up with a plan to build some dams and reservoirs that, if they were operational today, would have more than enough water to supply to that side of the mountains. Unfortunately a bunch of well financed do gooder eco nuts decided that would NOT be a good idea because a few fish and worms or something would be endangered. What is the result? Those few fish are still a few fish. They did not go extinct nor did their population grow. The people and businesses in California are now paying BILLIONS because of this and the Ag market is laying off all those people and the price of goods is going way up. All because of a few barefoot hippies who thought they knew better...

I liked the rest of your post but I cannot agree with this. The dams that they did succeed in putting up are not nearly as useful as once believed, and they have ended up costing us much more than they are worth. Each year it costs more to transport migrating fish around the dams than they take in with electric generation, and the Colorado flushes so much silt downstream that Lake Powell and Lake Mead will be virtually useless as reservoirs in as little as 50 years. The snow pack in the Sierra Mountains is at 5% of average this year, and there is a growing body of evidence that shows the water levels and flow rates calculated at the turn of the last century were measured at a time of unusually plentiful water, and that the '500 year drought' is actually the norm for this region.

The larger issue with the drought in California is you have the nation's most heavily populated state in a desert climate. The carrying capacity of that region has been completely outstripped for at least a generation, but they refuse to see it that way.

Seeing the environmental impact of such large scale operations as 'a few fish and worms or something' is precisely the root of the problem. Destroying the balance of a biosphere just so a few million more people can live in luxury in a desert climate is unconscionable. The fertile farm and fishing grounds that made California what it is was only made possible because of free flowing rivers which provide silt and nutrients from upstream, and fish runs from the sea. Those nutrients have been gone for 50 years, replaced with agricultural chemicals and fish barges.

I used to think a river was just water, damming it up was no big deal to provide water reserves, but once you start researching what actually goes on and what natural forces are disrupted, and the consequences of those actions, my viewpoint changed 180 degrees. The federal subsidies in place to create the illusion of a healthy river and water economy are the definition of total insanity, but you would never know about it unless you cared to look. If you are interested in the gigantic clusterf*ck that is our historical federal irrigation policy, this page is about as comprehensive as it gets:

Cutting the Bureau of Reclamation and Reforming Water Markets

Some dams make sense, but unfortunately most do not. What if we didn't have a lot of these dams to maintain? If you look at the money going in and the money coming out and the benefits vs. the costs, we would have a net surplus of both money and natural resources to take advantage of responsibly, for once.
 
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I liked the rest of your post but I cannot agree with this. The dams that they did succeed in putting up are not nearly as useful as once believed, and they have ended up costing us much more than they are worth. Each year it costs more to transport migrating fish around the dams than they take in with electric generation, and the Colorado flushes so much silt downstream that Lake Powell and Lake Mead will be virtually useless as reservoirs in as little as 50 years. The snow pack in the Sierra Mountains is at 5% of average this year, and there is a growing body of evidence that shows the water levels and flow rates calculated at the turn of the last century were measured at a time of unusually plentiful water, and that the '500 year drought' is actually the norm for this region.

The larger issue with the drought in California is you have the nation's most heavily populated state in a desert climate. The carrying capacity of that region has been completely outstripped for at least a generation, but they refuse to see it that way.

Seeing the environmental impact of such large scale operations as 'a few fish and worms or something' is precisely the root of the problem. Destroying the balance of a biosphere just so a few million more people can live in luxury in a desert climate is unconscionable. The fertile farm and fishing grounds that made California what it is was only made possible because of free flowing rivers which provide silt and nutrients from upstream, and fish runs from the sea. Those nutrients have been gone for 50 years, replaced with agricultural chemicals and fish barges.

I used to think a river was just water, damming it up was no big deal to provide water reserves, but once you start researching what actually goes on and what natural forces are disrupted, and the consequences of those actions, my viewpoint changed 180 degrees. The federal subsidies in place to create the illusion of a healthy river and water economy is total insanity, but you would never know about it unless you cared to look.

I'm not going to debate you on these issues and before you judge, think about the middle ground please.

People are going to move into the basin and you can't stop that. You have to deal with it. As far as the actual article I had saved a portion to a document but did not save the reference. Here is an excerpt to what I posted:

"Droughts are nothing new in California, but right now, 70 percent of California's rainfall washes out to sea because liberals have prevented the construction of a single new reservoir or a single new water conveyance system over decades, during a period in which California’s population has doubled,” said Carly Fiorina, former CEO of Hewlett Packard and likely GOP presidential candidate. “This is the classic case of liberals being willing to sacrifice other people's lives and livelihoods at the altar of their ideology.”

Releasing the water is supposed to save the endangered fish population, including the Delta Smelt, Longfin Smelt, four runs of Chinook Salmon, the Steelhead, Green and White Sturgeon, Splittail and the Sacramento hitch, but so far the fish population has decreased, according to experts. A state survey in March found just 6 Delta Smelt – four females and two males – prompting wildlife experts to estimate the species' population has dropped to 5,000 or fewer from the millions in the last 40 years.

"Prepare for the extinction of the Delta Smelt in the wild,” UC Davis fish biologist Peter Moyle said. “The population today may be too low to sustain itself,” Moyle said. “Fish ready to spawn have to find one another in a big area. If spawning is successful, there have to be enough eggs and larvae that some individuals survive to become the next generation of spawners.”

Jim Burling of the Pacific Legal Foundation said while water diversions have not helped endangered fish populations, the policies are devastating to people, produce and the economy.

“The plan is not doing anything for the fish and causing a lot of pain for farmers and farm workers,” Burling said. “The impact of these policies on people should be considered.”

The state has more than 80,000 farms and ranches, which generate more than $44 billion in annual sales. California produces more than 250 different crops, leads the U.S. in production of 75 commodities, and, according to the Water Education Foundation, is the only state to produce 12 key crops such as almonds, artichokes, dates, figs, raisins, kiwi, olives, persimmons, pistachios, prunes and walnuts.

During the current drought, which began in 2012, and by some estimates could be the most severe in recorded history, billions of gallons of water have been diverted from farmlands, according to a report by the Washington D.C.-based Heritage Foundation, with the American Farm Bureau estimating that between 400,000 acres and 500,000 acres of crops will be lost."

Now this was written from a conservative point obviously. I could find nothing from the liberal view except to conserve water. When something like this happens I try to find opposite viewpoints because almost always the truth (and the solutions) are going to be in the middle. I cut and paste the opposing views together and that way I can go back and use them for reference. Unfortunately "conserving water" is not an action it is a reaction. It could get better right? I doubt it though since it has been a desert for a long time.

The longer article I copied has to do more with the water runoff and the building of reservoirs than the building of dams. Here's my point: You can't control where people migrate right? Well, you could but that is a whole different can of worms. The basin has become a vital part of the US economy in many ways so it and the people who live there have to be taken care of right? Providing water is one of those basic needs. Someone, (the government at many levels) has to make decisions. Lose some fish (in this case fish that didn't make it anyway) or not be able to provide people (rich and poor, black and white, male and female) with a basic necessity like enough water. Hindsight is always 20/20 but you have to deal with reality sometime. Maybe it will rain but it won't ever be enough unless some type of additional storage is built. No matter what, building additional storage is going to piss some group of people off. It will be a fish there, or a tree here, or a bit of land over yonder or a burial ground up the street. No matter what you can never make everyone happy. In the meantime what is being done to provide water to a huge population center and Ag producer? Nothing. That's what I meant.
 
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Yah, people are going to move to Phoenix and Las Vegas and Los Angeles, but they don't automatically get the right to take water from upstream communities when they do. The rest of the western states need to tell these jackholes that they're getting all they're going to get, and if they're tired of not having enough water they can stop living in a megacity in the middle of a fawking desert.
 
I find glen Canyon a travesty, all the cool stuff around it I just wish I could explore what is under water. I think it should have been put in a more useless place like LA.
 
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The longer article I copied has to do more with the water runoff and the building of reservoirs than the building of dams. Here's my point: You can't control where people migrate right? Well, you could but that is a whole different can of worms. The basin has become a vital part of the US economy in many ways so it and the people who live there have to be taken care of right? Providing water is one of those basic needs. Someone, (the government at many levels) has to make decisions. Lose some fish (in this case fish that didn't make it anyway) or not be able to provide people (rich and poor, black and white, male and female) with a basic necessity like enough water. Hindsight is always 20/20 but you have to deal with reality sometime. Maybe it will rain but it won't ever be enough unless some type of additional storage is built. No matter what, building additional storage is going to piss some group of people off. It will be a fish there, or a tree here, or a bit of land over yonder or a burial ground up the street. No matter what you can never make everyone happy. In the meantime what is being done to provide water to a huge population center and Ag producer? Nothing. That's what I meant.


I see your point, and I don't think we are really that far apart on our views.

People will stop moving to an area once we come to terms with the economic reality of the situation, but almost nobody is privy to that information(especially considering 99% of the population is too involved with pop culture and social media to even consider something as mundane to them as natural resource management). The overarching problem with a lot of these resource issues is the fact that we are pushing economic development at a rate that is unsustainable, and I don't think you will find any expert out there that would debate that. The biggest limiting factor to what we can achieve in the Southwest is always going to be water. People will hem and haw about building more storage(UNDERGROUND makes a hell of a lot more sense than damming up an arterial waterway) and cutting consumption and protecting the environment, but when we really hit the wall and there is no more water to go around, people will have to pack up and move away. I think its really just that simple.
 
I find glen Canyon a travesty, all the cool stuff around it I just wish I could explore what is under water. I think it should have been put in a more useless place like LA.

Granted, it was a secondary site when the original plans were drawn up, Lake Powell is a poor choice for a reservoir. It loses 860,000 acre feet of water to evaporation and ground water seepage annually and is filling up with silt much faster than predicted.

Beyond the economic toll, we lost one of the greatest Native American heritage sites in North America. I've read quite a few accounts of trips through that section of canyon before it was flooded, and it put the Grand Canyon to shame. Maybe one day we'll get it back? You should read The Emerald Mile. Really fascinating history of the Colorado River.
 
I see your point, and I don't think we are really that far apart on our views.

People will stop moving to an area once we come to terms with the economic reality of the situation, but almost nobody is privy to that information(especially considering 99% of the population is too involved with pop culture and social media to even consider something as mundane to them as natural resource management). The overarching problem with a lot of these resource issues is the fact that we are pushing economic development at a rate that is unsustainable, and I don't think you will find any expert out there that would debate that. The biggest limiting factor to what we can achieve in the Southwest is always going to be water. People will hem and haw about building more storage(UNDERGROUND makes a hell of a lot more sense than damming up an arterial waterway) and cutting consumption and protecting the environment, but when we really hit the wall and there is no more water to go around, people will have to pack up and move away. I think its really just that simple.

That is why I will never be a politician. I piss everyone off with my dispassionate logic. Get them all together and tell them like it is: You want water? Then X, Y and Z fish will go away. You want fish and wildlife? Then Four Million of You need to move. Simple right?

Story Time:
Once upon a time I was elected to a Local School Improvement Council back when my children were in elementary school, about 15 years ago. We were supposed to talk about how we could improve our school and then meet with the county school board, present our little show and go away. I showed up with aerial photos, satellite photos (15 years ago... don't ask) quotes from our state's DOH that I had requested from my position of "power", electrical quotes from American Electric Power on installing 37 new power poles and streetlights, signage for a new street, surveyor's reports on adjacent properties and a re zoning study on expanding the school zone. Also safety statistics.

You see, when me, the parents and a few teachers had met it seemed the teachers and some of the parents that had been around awhile kept talking about how the bus and car traffic situation in the morning and afternoon was unsafe and there were many close calls with kids and vehicles. I listened and told them I would come up with a presentation. Their jaws hit the floor when I started my Powerpoint presentation highlighting a new 3/4 mile two lane highway around the school property, streetlights, signage and other items along with all the quotes and supporting documentation I listed above. My last slide was the financial slide requesting $9M and it was broken down to line item quotes. The county school board was flabbergasted seeing how the presentation before mine from another school was asking about ice cream sales and gym equipment. As I left a local newspaper reporter who was there to cover the meeting wanted an interview. I gave it to him along with everything else.

The next day I got a call from the County Maintenance Superintendent. After that It was the State School Superintendent. A few days later it was our Congressman's office wanting to know if I had a few minutes of time that afternoon.

I won't bore you with the details of corruption, delays, threats (to me) and everything else but SEVEN YEARS LATER I was invited to a ribbon cutting ceremony by the school principal. Everything was done. My children had moved on to middle school by then. You see, apparently I had spent all the money allotted for our entire county schools improvement for that year. People were pissed. I apparently didn't play the game right.

So there is my foray into public life. I don't think they could handle it again.
 
Granted, it was a secondary site when the original plans were drawn up, Lake Powell is a poor choice for a reservoir. It loses 860,000 acre feet of water to evaporation and ground water seepage annually and is filling up with silt much faster than predicted.



Beyond the economic toll, we lost one of the greatest Native American heritage sites in North America. I've read quite a few accounts of trips through that section of canyon before it was flooded, and it put the Grand Canyon to shame. Maybe one day we'll get it back? You should read The Emerald Mile. Really fascinating history of the Colorado River.


That's one of my hang outs, I explore any time I get the chance.
 
That is why I will never be a politician. I piss everyone off with my dispassionate logic. Get them all together and tell them like it is: You want water? Then X, Y and Z fish will go away. You want fish and wildlife? Then Four Million of You need to move. Simple right?


You have my vote, now all you need are some big corporate backers to pad your pockets.
 
I give $100 to the Blue Ribbon Coalation annually.


Protect motorized access to public lands, damnit!
 
I agree that the author should have made this clear in his article, but National Parks, monuments, etc, are not really public land where you can go and do what you want. Designated campgrounds, designated roads, no camping here, no playing there, you must pay a daily fee to enter.

I think this is important to note. These sites, administered by the National Park Service, are a drop in the bucket when you're talking about federal "public lands." They are meant to be pristine, non-use areas, generally meant for looking, but not touching - hence the myriad of limitations on what can't be done. But they comprise less that 10% of all federal public lands, last I checked. Moreover, the vast majority of it is in Alaska, and while certainly beautiful, most people will never see or have access to it.

The rest of federal lands are meant to be used, as long as that use is sustainable - Forest Service, BLM, and Fish & Wildlife have most of these.

So while the author of the article may certainly have a slanted view and may be misleading us, he's not doing it any more than Lisa Murkowski is doing when she says "hey, we're going to leave the National Parks alone..."

Well, gee whiz...thanks Lisa. That'd be just peachy if the vast majority of federal land users were windshield tourists who desire only to 'ooooh' and 'ahhhhh' at the picturesque landscape, maybe snap a few pictures. But they aren't. They're hunters, fishermen, hikers, boaters, campers, etc.

Take your pick - the Lisa Murkowskis of country who want money and jobs, or the hard-core environmentalists who want every acre designated as a wilderness area (i.e. no motors of any kind, like the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness here in Minnesota). Each has an extreme and - in my opinion - unworkable view. So a middle ground has to be found.

But there are problems with that, too. First, it's obviously not feasible to block everything off to foot travel only. Also, in all time I've spent on mining lands (current and former), I haven't seen a whole lot of evidence of what I'd call "responsible" mining. Not that people may not have tried, but toxic runoff, polluted groundwater, and habitat destruction seem to be the norm. Same with logging lands, to a lesser extent. How to do that stuff cleanly is the million-dollar question.
 

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