Did The Moron Salesman Hurt Anything?

[MD0420]

Looking at a used 4R today to buy. It wouldn’t go into 4 low. Light blinking and beeping. I fiddled with it for a little while figuring the solenoid or something was sticking but to no avail. So the salesman jumped in acting like it was user error and he would take care of it…..

So he turns the knob and gooses it a couple times. “There you go, you’re in 4 low”. I said no, the knob is in 4 high and the 4low light isn’t on. After he fought the knob for a while, I had to instruct him that you have to push down to go to low. He finally gets it to go and again it’s flashing and beeping. He decides it’s a good idea to tear out across the parking lot (I would guess around 10-15 mph) before I could say anything the thing finally engages with some loud grinding and the type of pop you’d expect with engaging low at that speed. This is a Toyota dealer btw (won’t say the name).

It didn’t seem to break anything and it seemed to shift through all the 4wd/2wd options okay. Everything seems okay.

Anything I should be worried about going through with the purchase? Everything else is great and it’s low mileage.

 

[armabill]

If you never go into 4 low- no problem. I'd pass on this one, there might be other problems that you aren't aware of.

 

[MD0420]

If you never go into 4 low- no problem. I'd pass on this one, there might be other problems that you aren't aware of.

I probably wasn’t clear, it went in fine after that. Like it had probably never been engaged and the solenoid was a little sticky or something. Everything seems okay. It’s immaculate condition and well serviced and taken care of. The one and only issue I’m concerned with is what this bone head might have damaged when it engaged at that speed.

 

[flyrv9]

I would name the dealer; as it's obvious they don't check out vehicles before they put them up for sale. You might save somebody some real trouble. Haven't seen a red flag, as big as this, in a long time. Run like the wind to another (more reputable dealer) if there is such a thing!

 

[MD0420]

I would name the dealer; as it's obvious they don't check out vehicles before they put them up for sale. You might save somebody some real trouble. Haven't seen a red flag, as big as this, in a long time. Run like the wind to another (more reputable dealer) if there is such a thing!

I know this dealer well and they are a very reputable dealer. I inquired about this one before it was ready for sale. It’s also CPO. This is purely a dumb salesman being stupid issue. This is a great 4R it just had a sticky solenoid from never being used. I’m just concerned with what may have happened inside the tc and/or diffs when it engaged at that speed.

 

[Hungryhawk]

Moron

Since you like this vehicle and wish to ignore advice given here with kind intent, I suggest figure out a way to protect yourself from a damaged drive train
I would start by memoralizing the experience you related on paper in ink with as much detail as possible.
Exact time of day, exact day, vehicle mileage if you noted it, witnesses to any part of this experience etc.
Then make your deal contigent upon an independent mechanic evaluation of drive train.
You need to find a top notch 4runner independent mechanic. Tell him the story. Ask what he would do? Ask his fee to examine the drivetrain and maybe whole truck? Prior owner may have dumped the truck because of this issue!
At a minimum I think drain and refill:
1) transfer case, 2) tranny, 3) front diff., 4) front drive/propeller shaft.
Save first catch of fluids in clean clear containers-enough for 2 lab assessments if suspicious fluid or particles are discovered.
Negotiate all or half this fee off your purchase price.
Tranny cost alone about $5,000 plus the cost of transfer case. I expect fluid change will be around $500 plus diagnostic of shift solenoids.

 

[02SE]

Well, the loud grinding and pop aren't encouraging. There's no way to know the extent of the damage to the T-case without taking it out of the 4Runner, and taking it apart to inspect. Is there virtually no damage, or is it on borrowed time? We can't know the unknown.

You could ask them to change the oil in the T-case and look for bits of metal, and make a decision based on what they/you see. But even that would not be conclusive. To achieve that, the T-case internals would have to be inspected.

A couple people have told you to move on, but you seem to already be emotionally attached to this particular 4Runner. Which is never a good position when buying a vehicle.

Just know that there are lots of 4Runners out there.

BTW I'm a former Toyota Master Tech.


Good luck.

 

[FoxtrotRomeo]

What is the year and mileage? If it is a "true" Toyota CPO you should have a 7 year 100k drive train warranty. Obviously, these numbers are from when the car was new - not from when you take possession. So, you should likely have a decent warranty for this

 

[MD0420]

Well, the loud grinding and pop aren't encouraging. There's no way to know the extent of the damage to the T-case without taking it out of the 4Runner, and taking it apart to inspect. Is there virtually no damage, or is it on borrowed time? We can't know the unknown.

You could ask them to change the oil in the T-case and look for bits of metal, and make a decision based on what they/you see. But even that would not be conclusive. To achieve that, the T-case internals would have to be inspected.

A couple people have told you to move on, but you seem to already be emotionally attached to this particular 4Runner. Which is never a good position when buying a vehicle.

Just know that there are lots of 4Runners out there.

BTW I'm a former Toyota Master Tech.


Good luck.

Thank you for your input. I know it seems like I’m just brushing other comments off but honestly the “bad dealer doesn’t check vehicles out before sell” and who knows what else is wrong and why they sold it” just doesn’t apply here. I’m honestly not trying to be brash. I’m not emotionally attached because I just don’t get that way with vehicles, I am in a bit of a time crunch and have been looking for a while now for one in this condition.

It is a 22 with 16k miles, it’s obvious no one had ever tried to shift it to 4low before me. It’ll be CPO so there will be warranty so there is that. I guess I already knew what you’re saying, I think I’m just fishing for anyone had every had something similar and could say “I’m at 100k with no problems” or if there are any known weak links in these tc’s with gears or synchronizers, etc.. Probably should have asked it that way.

Thank you for the advice and I apologize to the board if I came off the wrong way. It’s just that this was an immaculate low mileage truck in every way before the idiot did what he did.

So I should just ask you, are there any known weak links in these tc’s or do they have a reputation for being “tough”? This is my first Toyota, I’ve worked on vehicles for years and built several engines, transmissions, tc’s, and diffs over the years and beat them up off-road and on the track. It really didn’t sound like anything “broke”, but we’re on pavement so, you know, there’s no give there. I just don’t know how “bullet-proof” or otherwise the tc components are. I’m just trying to understand how likely or unlikely I am to have trouble with in the future.

 

[rdruss]

IMO, I'd take it on another drive and engage the T-case a few times and listen/feel how it seems and then, as suggested, ask the dealer to drain the t-case in your presence and inspect for any obvious "shrapnel", if all ok ... buy it.

 

[Nick B]

Have the dealer show you its complete maintenance history. If it was always serviced at a dealership there will be a complete history since day one .

 

[Saker]

I wouldn’t purchase this one.
No way!

 

[5thToy]

Pass

 

[Humble Leader]

pass don't waste your time. I assume you were putting it into 4L properly though. stopped, in neutral, foot on brake. it's normal to hear a bit of a sound going from 4H to 4L if your vehicle isn't warmed up. people have reported this but I don't know the reason why. if you've been driving a while and go from 4H to 4L it should go no problem fairly quietly

 

[02SE]

Thank you for your input. I know it seems like I’m just brushing other comments off but honestly the “bad dealer doesn’t check vehicles out before sell” and who knows what else is wrong and why they sold it” just doesn’t apply here. I’m honestly not trying to be brash. I’m not emotionally attached because I just don’t get that way with vehicles, I am in a bit of a time crunch and have been looking for a while now for one in this condition.

It is a 22 with 16k miles, it’s obvious no one had ever tried to shift it to 4low before me. It’ll be CPO so there will be warranty so there is that. I guess I already knew what you’re saying, I think I’m just fishing for anyone had every had something similar and could say “I’m at 100k with no problems” or if there are any known weak links in these tc’s with gears or synchronizers, etc.. Probably should have asked it that way.

Thank you for the advice and I apologize to the board if I came off the wrong way. ItÂ’s just that this was an immaculate low mileage truck in every way before the idiot did what he did.

So I should just ask you, are there any known weak links in these tc’s or do they have a reputation for being “tough”? This is my first Toyota, I’ve worked on vehicles for years and built several engines, transmissions, tc’s, and diffs over the years and beat them up off-road and on the track. It really didn’t sound like anything “broke”, but we’re on pavement so, you know, there’s no give there. I just don’t know how “bullet-proof” or otherwise the tc components are. I’m just trying to understand how likely or unlikely I am to have trouble with in the future.

The T-case is pretty stout as far as the internals go.

OTOH, I wasn't there to hear the extent of the grinding and the Pop.

There is a proper procedure to engage 4-low. Obviously the salesman is not mechanically inclined, and didn't comprehend that. That said, this wouldn't be the first time someone has not followed proper procedure when engaging 4-low, but usually that's while the vehicle is stopped.

The 10-15 mph 4-low engagement is what could have caused some real damage to the gears. I'd at the very least have them drain the gear oil out of the T-case, onto a clean filter media placed on top of their waste oil catch can, to catch any larger metal bits of gears which might come out. If no larger bits of metal come out, then you possibly lucked out.

 

[MD0420]

The T-case is pretty stout as far as the internals go.

OTOH, I wasn't there to hear the extent of the grinding and the Pop.

There is a proper procedure to engage 4-low. Obviously the salesman is not mechanically inclined, and didn't comprehend that. That said, this wouldn't be the first time someone has not followed proper procedure when engaging 4-low, but usually that's while the vehicle is stopped.

The 10-15 mph 4-low engagement is what could have caused some real damage to the gears. I'd at the very least have them drain the gear oil out of the T-case, onto a clean filter media placed on top of their waste oil catch can, to catch any larger metal bits of gears which might come out. If no larger bits of metal come out, then you possibly lucked out.

Thanks man that helps. Honestly, I was golfing today, and walking down the fairway I was thinking I probably didn’t do a good job of explaining the noise. It was more of an aggressive ratcheting/clicking noise like the the synchronizers were desperately trying to get things matched up lol. The pop was more of an aggressive gear engagement sound but nothing really popped. I’m a little ashamed I described the noise no better than a soccer mom would (no offense to soccer moms).

The more I think about it the more I realize it wasn’t nearly as bad as I’ve heard when people grind gears in a manual or me slamming gears and popping the clutch in a muscle car and a 4R has a fraction of the power and since you say they’re pretty stout I feel better. With the CPO warranty I think it’s probably fine. I think I’ll either just buy it or pass instead of getting into draining the fluid and stuff but I do agree that would be the best thing to do. This guy is just a smug, arrogant, know it all that is nothing but an idiot. You know the type. I’ll add, he isn’t my salesman, he was the guy that “knows all about 4wd’s because he has a jeep”. So he’ll never admit he did anything wrong and honestly he won’t have to because this one will sell quick when the next guy is none the wiser. It was just me and him in there when it happened so if he denies it, it’s just he said, he said. So I’ll just decide if I’m okay with it or not and go from there.

I really appreciate you commenting as a Master Tech, your input is very helpful. If you have any other thoughts I’m happy to hear them.