diff drop. necessary?

[cooljello6233]

i just got a 3 inch toytec lift (front spacer rear ome coils and rear bilsteins) so do i need a 1 inch diff drop? and is it hard to install?

 

[Rock Slide]

Yes you need one and No, it's not hard to install.

You increase your risk of damaging your CVs without a diff drop installed.

 

[techno]

I got 3 inches of lift with my Tundra coils and have the extra wheel travel from the OME struts. I do not have the diff drop stuff fitted and don't plan to. I off road regularly and have never had any issues at all. Most people do the diff drop cause they are afraid of damage but there is no evidence at all that it has any real benefit. I say save your money for something else.

 

[Rock Slide]

I got 3 inches of lift with my Tundra coils and have the extra wheel travel from the OME struts. I do not have the diff drop stuff fitted and don't plan to. I off road regularly and have never had any issues at all. Most people do the diff drop cause they are afraid of damage but there is no evidence at all that it has any real benefit. I say save your money for something else.

I know a couple guys that have damaged their CVs in just 2 months of having their lift installed b/c they did not install a diff drop kit. On the flip side, I also know of a guy with a lifted 4Runner that has yet to have an issue with his CVs. Doesn't mean he won't, I'll just have to wait and see.

In short, just b/c you personally have not yet had any issues with your CVs, doesn't mean you don't need one. You may be fine now, but without a diff drop installed, you simply increase the risk of damaging your CVs in the long run. Remember, I didn't say you would damage your CVs w/o running a diff drop, I simply said you greatly increase your risk of damaging them w/o a diff drop. It's like riding a bike w/o a helmet. You can do it, but you greatly increae you risk of a head injury during a wreck without wearing one.

Check out Steve's site for more info on this matter: Click Me. As quoted from Sonoran Steel's site: Front differential drop spacers simply improve the CV angles on your front axle shafts after a lift has been installed.

Oh and no offense, but if you seriously believe there is no evidence to back this information up, you need to contact Steve Schaefer immediately. He can provide you with all the evidence you need. You think he includes these diff drop kits in his lift kits just for the fun of it??

Besides, his diff drop kit is only $40...that's about the cheapest insurance you can purchase for your vehicle. It's even cheaper than a tank of gas

 

[techno]

Check out Steve's site for more info on this matter: Click Me. As quoted from Sonoran Steel's site: Front differential drop spacers simply improve the CV angles on your front axle shafts after a lift has been installed.

Oh and no offense, but if you seriously believe there is no evidence to back this information up, you need to contact Steve Schaefer immediately. He can provide you with all the evidence you need. You think he includes these diff drop kits in his lift kits just for the fun of it??

Funny you should mention Steve. He confirmed my suspicions that these kits are not necessary. When I did my lift I emailed him about the diff drop and questioned the negative effect it has by increasing full compression cv angles. He told me that although he sells the kit, in reality it doesn't really do much. He told me not to bother with it. Most cv's fail from excessive stress and not excessive angles. So actually, I do think he (and others) sell them for fun, $40 for two 50c spacers and a couple of bolts?? What a joke.
I'm not saying people are silly or stupid for installing them, they don't do any harm, and if it gives you some piece of mind then that's great, I just dont think they are truly needed, and my research confirmed it for me.

 

[Rock Slide]

See my post further down from Steve himself.

 

[techno]

A common cause of cv joint failure is overheating. This usually happens when dirt and water get into the joint when the boot has split or come loose and the moly grease comes out letting bad stuff in. Its a good idea to regularly check the boot condition to make sure they are not damaged and that grease is still packed in the joint. I know that sometimes at full droop the boot can rub on itself which might cause premature wear and result in a split, but a properly fitted boot should not do this. Regular inspection, maintenance and sensible wheeling (yeah, I know, not always possible!) is the best idea.

 

[cooljello6233]

thanks guys!

 

[CSL]

reviving the dead thread

So, maybe just getting long travel inner cv boots and leaving the diff alone is the way to go?

For Steve from Senora Steel to say their so useless, he sure does a good job of marketing them on his website for just how great they are...

 

[Rock Slide]

For Steve from Senora Steel to say their so useless, he sure does a good job of marketing them on his website for just how great they are...

CSL, Steve just shot me an email and asked that I clear up that misinformation he was quoted as saying. Per Steve's email:


The diff drop does without a doubt help. It makes a 3” lift have the CV angles of a 2.5” lift. The cost is also very small, so for $45.00 removing ½” of CV angle is well worth it.

What is does not do is fix catastrophic lift issues. Guys will call with exploding CV’s and violent shakes going down the road. The diff drop will not fix these catastrophic lift issues. None of our lift kits have any of these issues or anything even remotely close. All of these callers have lifts from other vendors or something they pieced together themselves.

As for “techno” I generally do not divulge much info to the “self builder”. If you call me up and you are building your own lift kit, I will wish you the best of luck, but no, I will not tell you all about our research and development. You will get very vanilla and generic answers. If you are a customer I will bend over backward to offer all the support you need so you will have no issues.

The 1.2 kit is extremely refined at this point and can not possibly be made any better. It already pushes the truck and the suspension to the ultimate limit.

Thanks-

Steve

 

[CSL]

CSL, Steve just shot me an email and asked that I clear up that misinformation he was quoted as saying. Per Steve's email:


The diff drop does without a doubt help. It makes a 3” lift have the CV angles of a 2.5” lift. The cost is also very small, so for $45.00 removing ½” of CV angle is well worth it.

What is does not do is fix catastrophic lift issues. Guys will call with exploding CV’s and violent shakes going down the road. The diff drop will not fix these catastrophic lift issues. None of our lift kits have any of these issues or anything even remotely close. All of these callers have lifts from other vendors or something they pieced together themselves.

As for “techno” I generally do not divulge much info to the “self builder”. If you call me up and you are building your own lift kit, I will wish you the best of luck, but no, I will not tell you all about our research and development. You will get very vanilla and generic answers. If you are a customer I will bend over backward to offer all the support you need so you will have no issues.

The 1.2 kit is extremely refined at this point and can not possibly be made any better. It already pushes the truck and the suspension to the ultimate limit.

Thanks-

Steve

Steve sent me the same email yesterday.

Since my last post, I have purchased his diff drop and I have photo proof of the difference in the drop on this thread:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/59416-s-s-diff-drop-experience-photos.html

 

[Rock Slide]

Ok good. I thought I remembered seeing those photos of yours. I was more of less posting Steve's email to clear up Techno's misinformation for other users who may come across this thread while searching. :bigok:

 

[GX4SEVEND]

Well according to Slee Off Road who sells ARB/OME, you don't need a diff drop. He says "at best" it improves the angle by .5" plus youre only lowering the front at not the rear now you have them at different angles. With an OME kit it really isn't necessary. I think most people just think they need it because other people say they do even though the people giving the information out may not have first hand experience. Slee also said that having 10 year old cv boots is more of an issue than the angle because the rubber surround deteriorates over the years and they've had zero issues when people install new boots. I was told to save my $30. Just what I was told.

 

[techno]

Well, you can all thank Steve for the 'misinformation' that apparently I am 'spreading'. If he thinks the the diff drop is worthwhile, then he should have told me so instead of saying the direct opposite. I was even going to buy it from him, but he told me not to bother. Perhaps his research has progressed further than it was back then, I don't know. If I still had his email reply, I would post it and I think you would all be a little surprised.


I am going to contact Sonoran Steel directly to resolve this issue. I have no problems with Steve at all and have no intentions to slander his business.

 

[manhunter]

Well according to Slee Off Road who sells ARB/OME, you don't need a diff drop. He says "at best" it improves the angle by .5" plus youre only lowering the front at not the rear now you have them at different angles. With an OME kit it really isn't necessary. I think most people just think they need it because other people say they do even though the people giving the information out may not have first hand experience. Slee also said that having 10 year old cv boots is more of an issue than the angle because the rubber surround deteriorates over the years and they've had zero issues when people install new boots. I was told to save my $30. Just what I was told.

I have heard more info to suggest doing the diff drop than to not do it. My understanding is that you only really need it if you are going to do some serious off roading that will put even more stress on the CV's when you flex. You don't really lower them, they just rotate forward about an inch, which in turn lessens the angle resulting from the lift. My position is why not spend $35 or so just in case, rather than take a chance on several hundred replacing a busted CV, especially if it does that out on the trail in the middle of nowhere. I saw this happen at the Toyota Jamboree in January out at Gilmer. Pretty much ruined the guys weekend.

 

[techno]

I have contacted Steve about this and he still has the emails from 2008. Read them for yourself and make up your own mind. There might be some confusion regarding the diff drop specifically with the N91S.

My email to Sonoran, Feb 14 2008

Hello

I have a 2000 4wd 4Runner and I am planning a lift. Your web site is very informative and I have read many positive things about you and your business on 'the forums' so if you have some time to steer me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated.

I currently have OME 890 coils and N86 shocks to put in the rear and Tundra coils for the front. I am trying to decide what front struts will suit me best. Its difficult to decide between N91S's, Tokico's or the Bilsteins that you offer. I have traditionally been an OME fan as I used to work for ARB in Melbourne (i'm an aussie thats moved to the US recently) and have driven almost every vehicle they make products for and am very familiar with the level of engineering and testing that goes into them. But I also recognise the issues associated with the N91S for my application. Does the front diff drop help reduce the cv angles that occur with the added drop from the N91S sufficiently, or is it still to extreme for comfort? How much less travel do the Bilsteins offer? I plan to add a bullbar (no winch) in a few months so this is also a factor that may need consideration.

What is your position concerning 'top out spacers' (the spacer that goes between the top plate and the chassis mount)? Would these be worthwhile to maintain front lift height when I had a bullbar? Do these make the CV droop angles issues worse? Andy (bamachem) seems to promote them, but you have moved away from them?

With a front diff drop, I am wondering what effect this has on the CV's when the suspension is at or approaching full compression. Obviously the angles will be greater than stock, but is this still within acceptable limits? I dont want to protect the droop conditions at the expense of the compression conditions. I'm sure you would have taken this into account before offering this product for sale but I have never read any comments about this so I thought I might ask. If I get this, I will definately be purchasing your kit.

I hope my questions make sense and that you can find the time to answer them since I'm sure you are quite busy. I am not in any rush, I just want to do my research to help get good results. I will be using my 4Runner for moderate offroading and camping trips in the north east area where I am. I do prefer the 'raked' look (or 'aussie look' as I read on your site )and dont want it to be pointing to the sky as soon as I load it up with camping and recovery gear.

Thank you



This is Steve's relpy Feb 15 2008


The Bilstein 5125 shocks we use are stock length just like the Tokico shocks. The Blue Tokico shocks are the best, the ones used on the TRD Tacoma Double Cab.

The N91S is a full inch longer. No the diff drop is not going to help that. The diff drop does not really do all that much to be honest with you, but since it is a very inexpensive part, it makes sense to use it no matter what effect it has. It does help but it does not save the day by any means.

Yes the top out spacer just makes everything worse as it makes the entire assembly longer. Spacers are a thing of the past, there is no need for them any more, so I eliminated them from the lift kit we sell. You can fix this with limiting straps, but then you still have compressed distance to deal with as that is shorter too. Too many fixes just to use one specific shock, that is why I had Bilstein make the shocks for us we use, simple straight forward and right on the money length wise.

We do not sell the 5125 shocks separately. They are only sold with the complete lift kits.

Steve

 

[theizzardking]

it's like $20 bucks skip the next Brittany album and buy the drop.....

seriously $20 bucks you spend more on that on oil or daily gas why even think about it, it's not like a tornado or a nuspeed sticker or anything.

 

[techno]

it's like $20 bucks skip the next Brittany album and buy the drop.....

Ha! The most convincing argument yet!

Don't forget to add fuel magnets to your wish list.

 

[CSL]

The diff drop does not really do all that much to be honest with you, but since it is a very inexpensive part, it makes sense to use it no matter what effect it has. It does help but it does not save the day by any means.

Techno, Steve isn't really saying that it is completely unnecessary in the quote you provided. Reread it for what it actually says.

I don't think anyone is trying to say the diff drop is a "save all", it just helps.

A skid plate also "helps" to protect your rig, but also isn't a "save all". Same for seat belts, windsheilds, airbags, on and on and on. You can certainly drive without all these features, they aren't "necessary" either. Same goes for the diff drop.

Honestly, I am so disappointed that this arguement is still going on. I tried to clear all this up with "first hand experience" of installing mine and taking photos documenting the change in angle. For $50 (after shipping) and two hours of my time, it is totally worth it for simply what the photos I posted show.

Can I still tear a boot or break a CV, sure. Can I still die in wreck with my seatbelt on, sure. So what the hell is there to argue?

 

[techno]

Don't be disappointed. It's just one of those things that some people like and others do not. Same with the deckplate mod. If you are pleased with the CV angles after a diff drop then thats great, you got your moneys worth and are happy. Me, I'm happy with knowing that CVs are designed to operate at all angles and are just as strong. I offroad a moderate amount and have had no issues without it. The only reason I would do the diff drop would be to prevent excessive boot rubbing and resulting tears, but my boots are fine and don't rub much at all. I don't have the need for this product.

In my emails this week with Steve he pointed out that he was mostly commenting on the diff drop in relation to the N91S, which I understand and accept. But this comment "..but since it is a very inexpensive part, it makes sense to use it no matter what effect it has" is the kicker for me. So even if it does nothing, buy it anyway? That is just dumb by anyones definition and is purely a sales comment in my opinion.