RobS10
Member
:thumb3:
Does your 4Runner sound like this?
- Thread starter RobS10
- Start date
rageandlove
Member
Here is the thing about YouTube. He makes money getting clicks. He gets clicks by saying controversial things. Literally, the way they business model works, it creates an incentive for him him to say controversial things - even things that aren’t true - to get attention.
(It’s why the news industry is broken and we are all angry with each other too.)
I’d take anything you see on YouTube with a big grain of salt therefore …
You sir, is woke.
There is a peer reviewed study out there where the participants watched CNN or Fox only for a prescribed time and it resulted in dramatic changes in their opinion on the latest "topic(s)"
But, I digress.
BlackWorksInc
New member
So I actually watched the video that was posted in the thread earlier... I really don't agree with this guy's assessment at all.
First off, lets start with his "listen to this..." It's not really easy to hear over his talking and to be honest with you it sounds like every 4Runner warming up I've heard?
Second, the live Data List information he's pointing out? All of that really doesn't strike me as odd; in fact what is odd to me is what he chooses to focus on.
-Acceleration Sensor Voltage No.1 (also referred to as "Accelerator Pedal Position" or APP) is exactly what it sounds like; sensor 1 of 2 in the accelerator pedal that reads your pedal input as a voltage and then converts that to a percentage. Both sensors are offset from 0v/0% to prevent erroneous readings (Sensor 1 specification is 10~22% with the pedal released, Sensor 2 is 22~40% with the pedal released). At 15.6~16% Acceleration Sensor No.1 is reading perfectly fine within it's tolerances with the pedal released. Also, he's wrong; even IF APP No.1 was out of specification for fully released pedal, just that sensor being out of spec would set DTCs for the accelerator pedal because the ECM cross references APP No.1 with No.2 to verify that the pedal is reading accurately and so you don't get unintended acceleration (this has been standard for fly-by-wire throttle systems since shortly after their inception), it wouldn't cause the engine to race or accelerate unless both sensors failed in a way that they both somehow read like it was being accelerated (highly improbable).
-The LTFT (Long Term Fuel Trim) for Bank 1 and Bank 2 are fine. For someone who has been a technician for 50 some years, he should know that basically every technician in the last 20-some years has been drilled that in general on an OBDII vehicle +/-10% LTFT is within acceptable margins and unless you're really trying to pick flies out of the shit, anything below +/-10% is fine. Both banks are relatively similar to each other and both are trending lean (taking away fuel), that combined with looking at the STFT (Short Term Fuel Trim) being slightly positive, the engine speed being 728RPM, ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) being 83°C (181°F), Intake Air Temp and Ambient Temp being 32°C (89.6°F), Throttle Duty being 14.9%, and MAF (man that one was hard to see due to his screen glare) being about 3.46gm/s, and it is in Closed Loop; all that indicates to me that the vehicle is warmed up at normal idle and its likely starting to trim fuel away as it has reached operating temperature. (Side note- if it's almost 90°F outside and he's trying to have us listen to a noise that happens best in cold weather?)
-The Monitor Incomplete status for a couple of them are a bit odd; but I think that might be normal for a vehicle that was started up and not driven. It could be a quirk of the Autel tool he's using; I have used a TIS Techstream to see "history" results for previous monitor tests as long as the vehicle hadn't been cleared. I would have to dig into some literature to really see how Toyota runs/shows their monitors (which may be different than the Generic OBDII protocol that the Autel is possibly using for this data, I don't do a lot of generic OBDII stuff), but it's possible that those specific monitors are incomplete simply because it needs to be driven to see the most recent test results.
But basically I don't see anything wrong with the readings of the Data List or from his choppy (and sound adjusted) "listen to this" section of his video. He also goes on some vague tangents about quality and such comparing a cast iron block, aluminum head, non-VVTi, timing belt driven engine with a bucket & shim design for the valve train; to a all aluminum block & head, Dual VVTi, hydraulic lash adjuster valve train, chain driven 1GR-FE. They're going to sound drastically different for a lot of reasons.
This whole video preys on the viewer buying into the Expert Opinion/Appeal to Authority Fallacy, with him picking random data points off the Live Data List (His selection was random at best, He should have been looking at MAF, IAT, RPM, Fuel Trims, ECT, and other actual engine operating data points rather than the accelerator pedal and B1 Long Term Fuel Trim...) and hoping that the viewer just believes his word that these are "out of spec." Then he avoids what he thinks could be causing the condition described (you thinking chain slap, lifter noise, too thin an oil for such a noisy vehicle; what's going on in that head Scotty?) and just goes on a tirade about modern Toyota Quality (which he isn't entirely wrong about it being a bit subpar compared to the older days) and how the customer should feel ripped off by the dealership because he proved they're scamming you.
This video was certainty one of the more sensationalist and "wrong" videos I've seen from him. Honestly it makes it hard for me to really believe he isn't trying to confuse/take advantage of his own customers seeing him purposefully confuse and direct the viewer towards his own point.
First off, lets start with his "listen to this..." It's not really easy to hear over his talking and to be honest with you it sounds like every 4Runner warming up I've heard?
Second, the live Data List information he's pointing out? All of that really doesn't strike me as odd; in fact what is odd to me is what he chooses to focus on.
-Acceleration Sensor Voltage No.1 (also referred to as "Accelerator Pedal Position" or APP) is exactly what it sounds like; sensor 1 of 2 in the accelerator pedal that reads your pedal input as a voltage and then converts that to a percentage. Both sensors are offset from 0v/0% to prevent erroneous readings (Sensor 1 specification is 10~22% with the pedal released, Sensor 2 is 22~40% with the pedal released). At 15.6~16% Acceleration Sensor No.1 is reading perfectly fine within it's tolerances with the pedal released. Also, he's wrong; even IF APP No.1 was out of specification for fully released pedal, just that sensor being out of spec would set DTCs for the accelerator pedal because the ECM cross references APP No.1 with No.2 to verify that the pedal is reading accurately and so you don't get unintended acceleration (this has been standard for fly-by-wire throttle systems since shortly after their inception), it wouldn't cause the engine to race or accelerate unless both sensors failed in a way that they both somehow read like it was being accelerated (highly improbable).
-The LTFT (Long Term Fuel Trim) for Bank 1 and Bank 2 are fine. For someone who has been a technician for 50 some years, he should know that basically every technician in the last 20-some years has been drilled that in general on an OBDII vehicle +/-10% LTFT is within acceptable margins and unless you're really trying to pick flies out of the shit, anything below +/-10% is fine. Both banks are relatively similar to each other and both are trending lean (taking away fuel), that combined with looking at the STFT (Short Term Fuel Trim) being slightly positive, the engine speed being 728RPM, ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) being 83°C (181°F), Intake Air Temp and Ambient Temp being 32°C (89.6°F), Throttle Duty being 14.9%, and MAF (man that one was hard to see due to his screen glare) being about 3.46gm/s, and it is in Closed Loop; all that indicates to me that the vehicle is warmed up at normal idle and its likely starting to trim fuel away as it has reached operating temperature. (Side note- if it's almost 90°F outside and he's trying to have us listen to a noise that happens best in cold weather?)
-The Monitor Incomplete status for a couple of them are a bit odd; but I think that might be normal for a vehicle that was started up and not driven. It could be a quirk of the Autel tool he's using; I have used a TIS Techstream to see "history" results for previous monitor tests as long as the vehicle hadn't been cleared. I would have to dig into some literature to really see how Toyota runs/shows their monitors (which may be different than the Generic OBDII protocol that the Autel is possibly using for this data, I don't do a lot of generic OBDII stuff), but it's possible that those specific monitors are incomplete simply because it needs to be driven to see the most recent test results.
But basically I don't see anything wrong with the readings of the Data List or from his choppy (and sound adjusted) "listen to this" section of his video. He also goes on some vague tangents about quality and such comparing a cast iron block, aluminum head, non-VVTi, timing belt driven engine with a bucket & shim design for the valve train; to a all aluminum block & head, Dual VVTi, hydraulic lash adjuster valve train, chain driven 1GR-FE. They're going to sound drastically different for a lot of reasons.
This whole video preys on the viewer buying into the Expert Opinion/Appeal to Authority Fallacy, with him picking random data points off the Live Data List (His selection was random at best, He should have been looking at MAF, IAT, RPM, Fuel Trims, ECT, and other actual engine operating data points rather than the accelerator pedal and B1 Long Term Fuel Trim...) and hoping that the viewer just believes his word that these are "out of spec." Then he avoids what he thinks could be causing the condition described (you thinking chain slap, lifter noise, too thin an oil for such a noisy vehicle; what's going on in that head Scotty?) and just goes on a tirade about modern Toyota Quality (which he isn't entirely wrong about it being a bit subpar compared to the older days) and how the customer should feel ripped off by the dealership because he proved they're scamming you.
This video was certainty one of the more sensationalist and "wrong" videos I've seen from him. Honestly it makes it hard for me to really believe he isn't trying to confuse/take advantage of his own customers seeing him purposefully confuse and direct the viewer towards his own point.
rageandlove
Member
I can’t even understand what you are trying to communicate. But I’d suggest you spend less time on Facebook. There are no real peer reviewed studies there, just fabricated ones.
I should have added a /s after the starting comment. Unfortunately tone in digital communication is in the mind of the reader.
I was agreeing with you and elaborating on a tangent to your point. I don’t have any social media accounts, just a couple forums. I’m a Masters student with paid access to scholarly and peer reviewed articles. The point of the study is to show today’s biased news outlets are capable of swaying an individual beliefs from one side to the other. Maybe a little less rage and a little more love.
Here is the study:
https://osf.io/jrw26/
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CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
I have an MBA from USC and am old as F. In current times, all media must be interpreted between the lines.
I’ve seen videos by Kilmer before. Some are helpful. His delivery is rough, which makes him tough to watch. Fortunately there are many others out there.
I'm 32, but my gf says im 65. The level of propaganda and misinformation in general has reached insane levels I expect we will be seeing a lot of new or strengthened legislature on domestic propaganda at some point.
Back to topic.... Someone with a high quality microphone should run a basic experiment to compare the frequency content and amplitude of the 1GR FE with 0W-20 vs 5W-30
. I could setup a DOE for the experiment and analysis.
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RobS10
Member
I'm 32, but my gf says im 65. The level of propaganda and misinformation in general has reached insane levels I expect we will be seeing a lot of new or strengthened legislature on domestic propaganda at some point.
Back to topic.... Someone with a high quality microphone should run a basic experiment to compare the frequency content and amplitude of the 1GR FE with 0W-20 vs 5W-30
Do you suppose the 5th Gen motors are "busier sounding" than the older ones could be the fact that the old 4Runners used a timing belt and the 5th Gen 4L engine uses chains?
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
No questions the timing chains add to the noise.
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
2021nightshade4x4
New member
I bet you’re glad you’re not paying current tuition!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Humble Leader
Senior Member
good video. I love the detail in his videos, the way he explains issues and solutions is really well done
CutthroatSlam
Senior Member
Yeah, finished in fall 1988 going at night and my employer paid for it. Total cost was $26K. Now it's over $70K a year with room and board.
Son recently pulled our grandson from public school and put him in private school. It was a good move. Granddaughter will follow him this fall. And my wife and I are paying for it. It is a way to transfer estate tax free and education was invaluable to what we achieved in life and we want the same for them. We take care of our own and don't rely on government for anything, though gov always looks to us for taxes.
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Mark Linkous
New member
Sounds utterly normal. The hydraulic fan also adds to the sensation as startup is kinda noisy.
Congrats on getting one
Congrats on getting one
