Engine Re-Fresh

[MojaveMadMan]

I was driving a friends 3rd gen who is comparability equipped as mine (I built his haha) and I noticed his has a lot more power than mine does. The only thing he has under the hood that is not factory is an AEM cleaner. The rest is stock...

So it got me thinking that maybe my engine needs a re-fresh. I use the term "re-fresh" lightly. I don't want to drop a new engine in just yet, I only have 170K miles. My valve cover gaskets are starting to leak, I have another oil leak from somewhere I can't see, there is old grease in places I can't reach, stuff like that. So I was thinking that it might be a good idea to pull the motor, clean out the lower engine bay, find the leaks, do gaskets where required, and then do a more serious tune up other than just plugs/wires/pcv. Pulling an engine isn't a big deal. I have done a few junk yard swap overs in previous cars. But I am not a real engine guy. So here is my thoughts so far, please pitch in with some ideas!

- Remove engine
- Clean engine bay of all old grease and oil, re paint anything that need touch up
- Hunt down oil leaks, get Toyota parts on order
- Clean engine on all old oil and grease
- Valve cover gaskets
- Check valve clearances and make any needed adjustments
- Valve cover gaskets (maybe paint valve covers for flare points, haha)
- Drop oil pan, check for any wear indications in bottom end
- New oil pan gasket
- Check all the water ports, clean as required. I had some weird red buildup in the old radiator.
- Check manifolds to find that ticking noise
- New belts and hoses, all hoses even the small heater ones
- Re-install motor
- New vacome hoses, many seem to be cracked
- Install new intake tube, mine is cracked and ugly, incorporate the rid to get rid of the weird canisters (ISR).

Thats all I can think of for now, what am I missing?

 

[BrianSD_42]

Remove engine

- Clean engine on all old oil and grease
- Check valve clearances and make any needed adjustments
- New oil pan gasket
- Check all the water ports, clean as required. I had some weird red buildup in the old radiator.
- Check manifolds to find that ticking noise
- New belts and hoses, all hoses even the small heater ones
- Re-install motor
- New vacome hoses, many seem to be cracked
- Install new intake tube, mine is cracked and ugly, incorporate the rid to get rid of the weird canisters (ISR).

assuming you don't find any obvious issues then the only changes will be the above ...

Will that really give more horsepower?

If I were you I would change the obvious: plugs, wires, clean MAF, F filter, air filter, flush trans, flush coolant with machine.

After all that ... go get it Dyno-d. Examine the results. Then decide if you need to pull or disassemble the top of the engine.

At a minimum you will know if it is running within the power spectrum.

 

[zacattack20]

I wouldn't remove the engine unless you are replacing it. You can pretty much do everything you said without removing it. I think removing it is a little extreme. If you want a refreshed engine I think the best thing would be to take your time and build your own, either a user low mileage or buying a new block and building it up yourself.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

assuming you don't find any obvious issues then the only changes will be the above ...

Will that really give more horsepower?

If I were you I would change the obvious: plugs, wires, clean MAF, F filter, air filter, flush trans, flush coolant with machine.

After all that ... go get it Dyno-d. Examine the results. Then decide if you need to pull or disassemble the top of the engine.

At a minimum you will know if it is running within the power spectrum.

So I have done almost all of the stuff listed above except for machine flushes and dyno. I actually took it to a tranny shop and asked about the trans flush and surprisingly they told me not to do it. The guy said if they were done frequently from new then it was ok, but if I did the first one at 160K miles I would more than likely have some debri or build up lose and could actually cause more problems if it got lodged in a bad spot...

But ya, my goal isn't really to gain HP, but to just get back to stock levels. I have experienced this with a 91 Toyota Pickup I had there it seemed to be running ok. But after having the head rebuilt it felt like it had a bigger engine in it. I thought it was running good but after doing harder engine maintenance on it the thing felt amazing.

I just can't express enough how different mine felt vs my friends. We both are lifted, both have armor (his is actually heavier), both have 4:30's, both have 265's. His felt SC'd compared to mine...

I wouldn't remove the engine unless you are replacing it. You can pretty much do everything you said without removing it. I think removing it is a little extreme. If you want a refreshed engine I think the best thing would be to take your time and build your own, either a user low mileage or buying a new block and building it up yourself.

So the reason I want to yank mainly is the oil leak and the mess that is my oil pan and the build up on the back of the engine and bell housing. I have tried a few times to clean it and I just can't get to it. On top of that I suspect that the oil like is a rear main seal... If I need to disconnect, might as well make life easier for everything else. It's easier to do all the stuff from a stand than in the engine bay.

I was considering a new engine, but I'm just not sure I want to invest $3000 or more into a rebuilt engine... Especially when the bottom ends on these things are rock solid. If I was gunna go that far I would honestly just have the heads rebuilt and reassemble. But the truth is I just can't afford a new engine right now. I have gone the junk yard route and it is honestly too risky for me. You never know what you are gunna get with those and the last thing I want is more of the same.

My guess is that after 170K miles some stuff just needs adjustment. I am guessing the timing belt replacement will help. I know it has been done but I don't know exactly when, by who or what parts (Toyota or cheap). I would bet that I could check valve clearances and find some stuff that is out of spec as well.

I also forgot to mention, I discussed in my build, but my MPGs were very poor on my last long trip, 9 MPG highway... They are about 12 right now in town. I have done all the easy stuff in the last year so it seems like it could be something more. If the engine comes out, and I see it's worse, then I can do the rebuild. If I need heads, I can do those. If just easy stuff than that's cool too. I just want to do it one time...

 

[ryandc]

I'd start with a compression check on all six cylinders. It's an easy operation that doesn't require pulling the engine, and it will be very informative. If the compression checks out, dyno it.

Loss of compression directly correlates to loss of power. If you've got worn rings, it may be time for a refresh to get back the lost power.

 

[BrianSD_42]

But ya, my goal isn't really to gain HP, but to just get back to stock levels.

My thought was that the dyno will tell you what your torque and HP are and that will be a big indicator of where you stand from a pure power perspective.

This will help act as a starting point for analyzing if there is really a need to do the kind of work you mentioned.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

I'd start with a compression check on all six cylinders. It's an easy operation that doesn't require pulling the engine, and it will be very informative. If the compression checks out, dyno it.

Loss of compression directly correlates to loss of power. If you've got worn rings, it may be time for a refresh to get back the lost power.

I keep meaning to do this one! Thanks for the suggestion.

My thought was that the dyno will tell you what your torque and HP are and that will be a big indicator of where you stand from a pure power perspective.

This will help act as a starting point for analyzing if there is really a need to do the kind of work you mentioned.

I totally get what your saying about the dyno. I've seen one here in ABQ, I should call to get a price on a single run.

 

[3bears]

I find a leak down test a bit more telling, cost a bit more in tools

 

[MojaveMadMan]

Just to update anyone curious (I am sure nobody is haha). I am going to go forward with the engine removal. I know many have said it's not required and I agree that it is not. But I want to do the job right, and I want to clean up my messy engine bay. I have a few things going on, so it just makes sense to me. I will be swapping out my damaged transfer case while I am at it.

This is what I landed on for my re-fresh. I look at this as the half way point. It's more than a timing belt/maintenance and less than an engine re-build. I priced complete engine rebuilds and they were in the $2000 range. Then I priced getting the heads re-built at a local engine shop here in ABQ and it is only $360 plus $60 if I need a re-surface and any other broken parts required. To me this seems like what I want. These cast iron blocks are solid from what I understand and don't need replacing if not broken. The heads I am not sure of their condition but from talking to a few knowledgeable people, even if it is in good shape, there is still value and probably a noticeable difference in getting the head re-built so it seems like an easy choice, especially at that cost.

So here is my plan:
- Remove Engine and transfer case. I need to double check but I am going to separate the transfer case, then pull the engine/trans together. Then splint the engine and trans once out.
- Put engine on stand, remove intake, timing cover, timing belt, water pump, then remove the valve covers followed by the heads.
- Take heads to Engine Shop for re-build. Then while I am waiting I will clean out all the old oil/grease/dirt that is all over my engine bay.
- Once they are done I will reinstall the re-built heads. Followed by water pump, timing belt, valve covers and rear main seal.
- Then do any other random stuff I note. I want to put new plugs in for good measure. Plug wires are only a year old so those will stay. PCV is also a year old so that will stay.
- Then I will re-install the engine/trans/transfer case.
- Last is new hoses and belts. I also think I am going to get some synthetic vacuum hose and replace the vacuum hoses in the engine bay. I noticed I have a number that appear cracked and old so I just want to get that sorted out. (anyone know what size hose I need?)

Should be about it. From there I think I will have a nice refreshed engine that will last another 150K miles (timing belt at 100K obviously). Between the oil burning, lower MPG's and lower power compared to my fiends I think this will get me there. I did have 2 different friends drive mine and his and they all agreed mine was substantially slower... So ya, that's the plan. Everyone still think I'm crazy?

 

[3bears]

for me, if I was going through all that trouble of pulling an engine, pulling heads, I would hone and re-ring it and new rod bearings, even if to just put in stock rings and stock rod bearings

shoot, knowing me, id inspect with plasti-gauge and prob do mains too.....

well at that point, Id take the block, get it boiled out, have the cylinders checked and if needed over-bore, but from what I have read, that is rarely needed in these things until 300kplus if properly maintained

that's my 2 cents worth

 

[Sneaky77]

I was driving a friends 3rd gen who is comparability equipped as mine (I built his haha) and I noticed his has a lot more power than mine does. The only thing he has under the hood that is not factory is an AEM cleaner. The rest is stock...

So it got me thinking that maybe my engine needs a re-fresh. I use the term "re-fresh" lightly. I don't want to drop a new engine in just yet, I only have 170K miles. My valve cover gaskets are starting to leak, I have another oil leak from somewhere I can't see, there is old grease in places I can't reach, stuff like that. So I was thinking that it might be a good idea to pull the motor, clean out the lower engine bay, find the leaks, do gaskets where required, and then do a more serious tune up other than just plugs/wires/pcv. Pulling an engine isn't a big deal. I have done a few junk yard swap overs in previous cars. But I am not a real engine guy. So here is my thoughts so far, please pitch in with some ideas!

- Remove engine
- Clean engine bay of all old grease and oil, re paint anything that need touch up
- Hunt down oil leaks, get Toyota parts on order
- Clean engine on all old oil and grease
- Valve cover gaskets
- Check valve clearances and make any needed adjustments
- Valve cover gaskets (maybe paint valve covers for flare points, haha)
- Drop oil pan, check for any wear indications in bottom end
- New oil pan gasket
- Check all the water ports, clean as required. I had some weird red buildup in the old radiator.
- Check manifolds to find that ticking noise
- New belts and hoses, all hoses even the small heater ones
- Re-install motor
- New vacome hoses, many seem to be cracked
- Install new intake tube, mine is cracked and ugly, incorporate the rid to get rid of the weird canisters (ISR).

Thats all I can think of for now, what am I missing?

sounds like a perfect time to add the super charger :happy:

 

[kolelt]

I just ordered this last night.

Tune Up Kit Toyota 4Runner V6 1996 to 2002 5VZFE 3 4 L Six Cylinder | eBay

Figured I'd share it with you.

 

[BrianSD_42]

so what I'm getting out of this thread is that there is nothing actually wrong (or at least detectable) with your engine at the moment but you are going to strip it down and refresh it with after market parts in the hopes it will run equal or better than original Toyota specs.

Did you say you already have an SC? If you don't then isn't it worth considering buying one of those with the $2,000 and adding it to your truck?

Another idea would be to buy a $500 junkyard engine and refresh that one instead of your current engine which per your description seems to be working fine but vaguely under powered.

I do get what you are saying about old engine age and power. I know when 4RunningDaily did his engine swap he claimed to have seen a large power and gas mileage increase. I'm not sure how scientific that is but it is worth noting. I'm at 235k miles myself so I do wonder about these things.

Are you going to be doing the work yourself? I'm wondering where the $2K will be going to.

Also one thing to consider is RISK. There is significant, real risk in taking apart a working engine and having it rebuilt. I don't mean to question your personal skills, those of your friends or even the shop you are taking it to but the risk is always real. It is just another thing to consider when deciding what to do.

Thoughts?

 

[gamefreakgc]

But ya, my goal isn't really to gain HP, but to just get back to stock levels. I have experienced this with a 91 Toyota Pickup I had there it seemed to be running ok. But after having the head rebuilt it felt like it had a bigger engine in it. I thought it was running good but after doing harder engine maintenance on it the thing felt amazing.

I just can't express enough how different mine felt vs my friends. We both are lifted, both have armor (his is actually heavier), both have 4:30's, both have 265's. His felt SC'd compared to mine...

I would bet that I could check valve clearances and find some stuff that is out of spec as well.

I also forgot to mention, I discussed in my build, but my MPGs were very poor on my last long trip, 9 MPG highway... They are about 12 right now in town.

I thought I would add a few thoughts.

The older pickups tend to degrade a whole lot faster than the 4Runners we have. If you had a 3VZ-E, it took constant maintenance to keep it running well. I did a valve adjustment and it felt like I had a new engine. Not so much on the 5VZ-FE, it doesn't need a whole lot of work.

Also, have you checked your exhaust? A clogged cat or muffler or something like that would cause the loss of MPG's as well if it can't breathe. It sounds a lot to me like that or valves that are out of adjustment, but once again the 5VZ-FE rarely needs a valve adjustment.

So here is my plan:
- Remove Engine and transfer case. I need to double check but I am going to separate the transfer case, then pull the engine/trans together. Then splint the engine and trans once out.
- Put engine on stand, remove intake, timing cover, timing belt, water pump, then remove the valve covers followed by the heads.
- Take heads to Engine Shop for re-build. Then while I am waiting I will clean out all the old oil/grease/dirt that is all over my engine bay.
- Once they are done I will reinstall the re-built heads. Followed by water pump, timing belt, valve covers and rear main seal.
- Then do any other random stuff I note. I want to put new plugs in for good measure. Plug wires are only a year old so those will stay. PCV is also a year old so that will stay.
- Then I will re-install the engine/trans/transfer case.
- Last is new hoses and belts. I also think I am going to get some synthetic vacuum hose and replace the vacuum hoses in the engine bay. I noticed I have a number that appear cracked and old so I just want to get that sorted out. (anyone know what size hose I need?)

Should be about it. From there I think I will have a nice refreshed engine that will last another 150K miles (timing belt at 100K obviously). Between the oil burning, lower MPG's and lower power compared to my fiends I think this will get me there. I did have 2 different friends drive mine and his and they all agreed mine was substantially slower... So ya, that's the plan. Everyone still think I'm crazy?

I think you've got enough issues to justify the work you need to do. However, don't expect a huge jump in MPG's and HP just from fixing some oil leaks and some mechanical parts like the differential. More than likely you will patch it back up but it will still be slow and bad mileage. Unless the compression check or valve clearances show a problem, it's still gonna be slow.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

I'll answer a few questions, probably not in order... Yay cell phones.

Ok so I am NOT spending $2K. I just found through research that it costs roughly $2K for a rebuilt engine. I don't have that kind of budget... So no SC any time soon either. My hard budget is $900, and I will be doing the easy work. The idea was to drop the heads at a reputable shop here in ABQ where they would grind valves, resurface, rebuild etc. I'm not that inclined. What I can do though is install parts, use a torque wrench and follow torque patters and things like that. Doing a rebuild of the short block is not in my cards.

As far as risk goes I personally feel from my experience with junk yard engines is that they are way riskier than doing some maintenance that is inside my wheel house. I have used 3 junk yard motors in my life and none reached my expectation... One even turned out bad even though it seed to check good. One of these was in my old DD 95 civic, other two were in projects I was heavily involved in. I have been down the head road with a 22RE I previously had and also did a head replacement on a 1st gen Tacoma for my brother. In both cases things went well and both trucks ran exceptionally better.

I am not an engine guy, I can't take a Chevy 350 or LS based block and rebuild it from bottom to top. But I have been a gear head for 20 years now. Helping my dad as a kid, working in an off-road race shop for 5 years, and continually as a personal hobby. I know there are a lot of semi clueless visitors on here, but I would consider myself experienced in general.

When I say mine is slower than a friends it's not the "I am 16 and raced my buddies Ford Ranger and he beat me so I wanna go faster." It's I drove both 4runners and mine is easily 20% slower/worse on about all accounts. I know there is something going on here and I just honestly haven't found a moment to do a compression test, or to pull valve covers and check valve clearances. But I still can tell this is not right.

As far as pulling the motor, it's gunna happen. Many say I can do the work with the motor in and I get that. But I also get very angry every time I climb undery 4Runner for an oil change and see the mess of build up under there. Call it OCD or wanting to do a good job or attention to detail or just stupid. But it makes it difficult for me to identify issues or just be not annoyed with the state that it is in. I have tried 3 times to clean this stuff off and it's not to my liking. If I'm doing heads and a transfer case, then I'm just gunna do the hard job once, and be happy and not deal with it again.

Not sure where differential came from? Nor am I connecting my transfer case issue with this one. They are separate and the only reason I mention the transfer case is because I will already have it out of the way to pull the engine. I have seen a few tune up things so let me clear that up. Things I have replaced in the last 16 months: fuel filter, air filter 3 times, oil filter 3 times, plugs and wires, PCV valve and seal, knock sensors and wiring harness, intake gaskets and MAF cleaned.

I will say the Cat is a good idea. I may need to look into that.

Sorry if this rant seems as if I am a little frustrated. It is because I am. Not at you guys and the help you so willing fully provide, but with my rig and some of the issues I have been having. I am of the mind set that I don't want to try 10 little fixes. I want to bite the bullet one time, do the job, and have a good running 4Runner within my budget. If logic says it needs to be more money, then I will do it but I don't want to get too carried away with SCs and things like that. I have two kids under 3, I need to spend my time wisely, do things that make sense and also things that will make my engine as reliable as possible for as long as possible...
Ok rant over.

 

[BrianSD_42]

all good man. It sounds like to have it planned out well. I've followed your other threads and I look forward to hearing about the results of this project.

 

[02SE]

- Remove engine

If you're going to go that far, I'd also service the cylinder heads: check and replace as needed: Valves, Valve guides, Springs, Retainers, Seals, shims, etc., and perform a valve job.

Then I'd check everything related to the rotating assembly, and correct or replace anything out of spec.

Basically, rebuild the engine.

If you aren't going to do that, then you don't need to remove the engine.

 

[REVELC]

Dude. If you're pulling the engine and dropping the pan it would be stupid to not just pull the heads and re ring it. Come on, the extra time and parts would not be that much more than you're already about.

Edit
Also look into port matching and polishing your heads.

 

[MojaveMadMan]

Dude. If you're pulling the engine and dropping the pan it would be stupid to not just pull the heads and re ring it. Come on, the extra time and parts would not be that much more than you're already about.

This isn't a bad idea. I need to ask the engine shop what that would cost. Once we get to pistons and rings I have very little experience with removing, new ring installation, checking cylinders, stuff like that. If they can do for a couple hundred I would be interested.

 

[REVELC]

This isn't a bad idea. I need to ask the engine shop what that would cost. Once we get to pistons and rings I have very little experience with removing, new ring installation, checking cylinders, stuff like that. If they can do for a couple hundred I would be interested.

Rings won't cost much at all. There's nothing to it.

Just mark each piston and rod cap for whatever cylinder it came out of. Remove two bolts or nuts on each rod. Then use the handle of a hammer and push the bottom of the piston out. Lubricate the cylinder with some oil and run a ball hone with your drill in a constant up and down movement. Gently pry the rings off and put the new ones in. Compress the rings with a ring compressor tool so they don't catch on the block. Torque it all down. Easy peasey.


I feel like you want to rebuild it completely but you just need a boot in the a-- to dive into the bottom end.