Finally here: my 2016 SuperWhite 'TRD Trail' w/KDSS

[Brandonium]

For those that would experience lean using non TRDP shocks.. would it be as simple as adjusting the preload on one side to compensate? For instance Fox or King coilover setup.

Regarding the KDSS lean issue, several people have PM'd me with questions about it, so thought I should document the relatively successful fix here.

Measuring fender heights at the center of the axle on level ground, as delivered my 'TRD Trail' measured:

• 1.5" high on the front-left
• 1.2" high on the rear-left

That is far beyond Toyota's KDSS calibration limit of 0.787 inches, and it was visually obvious looking at the vehicle (see first image of delivery, and the second of the rear of it sitting in the garage). The service tech performed the KDSS lean calibration after noticing the lean, but it really did nothing.

That same day I walked out on the lot and measured all three stock KDSS vehicles they had on the lot, and they all measured about 3/4" high on the left-front, and about 1/2" high on the left-rear; this is an odd feature (or bug) of the KDSS system, that it, in and of itself, reverses the lean compared to non-KDSS vehicles.

Anyway, after a lot of research here on left/right leans with KDSS/non-KDSS vehicles (i.e. KDSS vehicles tend to be high on the left, non-KDSS vehicles tend to be a bit high on the right), I decided that the TRD Pro shocks being asymmetric must be exacerbating the 'normal' KDSS lean (i.e. the left shock is pre-loaded by 1/2" to supposedly compensate for the 'normal' 4Runner's left lean due to fuel/driver weight).

I thus requested the dealer swap the L-R shocks on their nickel, and accepted the responsibility if it didn't fix the problem (i.e. it was the dealer's last attempt to fix it, being that the TRD Pro suspension is not recommended for the Trail with KDSS). Fortunately for me, it has leveled the vehicle to near specs (roughly), and it now leans to the other side, but it is now not visually noticeable:

• 0.9" high on the front-right
• 0.6" high on the rear-right

Now, when approaching my vehicle from virtually any angle, I do not notice it leaning, so despite it being near the max tolerance in the front-right, it's close enough for me (and I'm the guy who straightens pictures in the house all the time).

For those of you who noticed the rather large change that simply switching the shocks in the front made, I'm as puzzled as anyone that it effectively changed the lean nearly twice what I expected, i.e. a net change of 2.4" in the front and 1.8" inches in the rear, especially given the fact that no changes were made to the rear whatsoever (the TRD rear shocks are identical). The OEM shocks that were removed, both front and rear, are identical to each other.

After this endeavor, it's my belief that the KDSS system somehow levels itself front-to-rear, based upon some initial (pressure?) set point that it seems to 'like', the calibrating of which seems to make little difference. The system effectively 'knew' that the front had become higher on the right, and self-adjusted the rear to also be high on the right. I suppose considering what the system is supposed to do for high-speed driving, it makes sense that it would do this, despite me not being able to technically explain it.

If anyone were to do this again, I'd suggest either:

• Switching left and right shocks from the get-go; or
• Buying two right shocks (no change in the stock perch setting), which I believe would nearly level the vehicle perfectly. Being that the only reasonable way to have TRD Pro suspension is to buy the $1700 front-rear kit, this probably isn't an option for anyone unless they buy the front and rear shocks separately, which would be prohibitively expensive; or
• Last option would be to move the perch setting on the left shock to be equal to the right, though not sure how difficult this would be.

Hope this helps someone who may go down the 'TRD Trail' road in the future.

 

[Throwback]

Bump for more discussion on the KDSS fixes. There are tons of these threads so I'm attempting to not bother starting a new one.

I have a tendency to get hung up on things. Very badly. Obsessively. See my tire saga (now back on KO2s BTW).

I have the KDSS lean and it's been bugging me so I started taking measurements. I'll update here as they change if I remember, but late Saturday with 1/4 tank of gas and otherwise empty I was 7/8" high on the rear and 3/4" on the front.

I went trail riding Sunday and was hoping that working the system would help it settle a bit again. Sunday night with a full tank of gas I measured 3/4" rear, 1/2" front. I took it to the dealer yesterday to get their input and they said everything was functioning properly and in spec; they printed out the tech sheet showing the 20mm (.787") delta allowed by the factory.

I burned about 1/8 of a tank of gas yesterday and last night measured the same 3/4" and 1/2". As I went to bed last night I had convinced myself to break into my bone stock truck and add the OME trim packer on the passenger rear because it appears to be a relatively easy experiment.

Just now this morning I measured and now the rear is only 1/2" and the front 1/4".

It would appear that the truck even settles around when it's parked doing nothing on a perfectly flat surface which is pretty mind boggling to me.

Anyhow, there's some data points. I'm undecided on whether I want to modify a stock truck beyond something the factory says is in spec but time will tell.

 

[Rob71]

Great 4Runner....like mind I did the same wanted the sun roof and the better suspension ride. Keep updating us. :artist:

 

[aroslv]

Looks great, definitely the way to go instead of buying a PRO.

I got the regular trail with KDSS because the extra features in the premium were not worth it to me. I pretty much did the same thing to mine, except I didn't go with the TRD suspension and bought/installed all the parts myself. Much cheaper that way, plus that is half the fun.

I installed the Toytec lift on mine, and had no KDSS lean problems. Everything was level and I did not have to adjust the front struts at all. Definitely recommend that setup.

 

[b407driver]

Bump for more discussion on the KDSS fixes. There are tons of these threads so I'm attempting to not bother starting a new one.

I have a tendency to get hung up on things. Very badly. Obsessively. See my tire saga (now back on KO2s BTW).

I have the KDSS lean and it's been bugging me so I started taking measurements. I'll update here as they change if I remember, but late Saturday with 1/4 tank of gas and otherwise empty I was 7/8" high on the rear and 3/4" on the front.

I went trail riding Sunday and was hoping that working the system would help it settle a bit again. Sunday night with a full tank of gas I measured 3/4" rear, 1/2" front. I took it to the dealer yesterday to get their input and they said everything was functioning properly and in spec; they printed out the tech sheet showing the 20mm (.787") delta allowed by the factory.

I burned about 1/8 of a tank of gas yesterday and last night measured the same 3/4" and 1/2". As I went to bed last night I had convinced myself to break into my bone stock truck and add the OME trim packer on the passenger rear because it appears to be a relatively easy experiment.

Just now this morning I measured and now the rear is only 1/2" and the front 1/4".

It would appear that the truck even settles around when it's parked doing nothing on a perfectly flat surface which is pretty mind boggling to me.

Anyhow, there's some data points. I'm undecided on whether I want to modify a stock truck beyond something the factory says is in spec but time will tell.

Not too sure what to tell you, other than to make sure you are measuring consistently, parked in the same spot (to reduce confounding variables). The operation of the KDSS system and its effect on the truck's stance seems to be a bit of a murky topic, and most Toyota service techs know little about it. I've come to the conclusion that each KDSS-equipped truck seems to have its own unique stance, and what applies to one may not apply to another identically-equipped vehicle.

 

[Throwback]

This morning it's slightly more improved with about 20 miles more gas burned out of the tank.

With Driver door open: (1/4" delta)
36 7/8" Driver Rear
36 5/8" Passenger Rear

With Driver door closed: (7/16" delta)
36 15/16" Driver Rear
36 1/2" Passenger Rear


This is what obsessive anal-retentiveness looks like.

 

[nb rob]

This morning it's slightly more improved with about 20 miles more gas burned out of the tank.

With Driver door open: (1/4" delta)
36 7/8" Driver Rear
36 5/8" Passenger Rear

With Driver door closed: (7/16" delta)
36 15/16" Driver Rear
36 1/2" Passenger Rear


This is what obsessive anal-retentiveness looks like.

That's pretty crazy...

if you're going to bother yourself with tiny measurements, you should measure from the center of the hub to the fender. Otherwise slight differences in air pressure are going to affect your arbitrary measurements.

Also, parking surfaces slope. If you don't like the way it leans, back in to the parking spot.

Ideally it would be great if you could find a 3' slab of marble to park on that has been verified by a machinist's level

 

[b407driver]

This morning it's slightly more improved with about 20 miles more gas burned out of the tank.

With Driver door open: (1/4" delta)
36 7/8" Driver Rear
36 5/8" Passenger Rear

With Driver door closed: (7/16" delta)
36 15/16" Driver Rear
36 1/2" Passenger Rear


This is what obsessive anal-retentiveness looks like.

Wish mine were that close! Good point from the previous poster about post-drive tire pressure (or half the truck sitting in the sun).

 

[white4run]

Great looking truck! Enjoy.

 

[Throwback]

Wish mine were that close! Good point from the previous poster about post-drive tire pressure (or half the truck sitting in the sun).

How far off is yours at this point?

I measured mine a couple times throughout the day on surfaces that I thought were level.

I saw between 1/2" and 7/8" delta on the rear so either the system varies the pressure it puts against the piston or minute surface differences cause drastic lean changes.

It's bugging me nearly enough to trade it in on a '14 non-KDSS the dealer has right now. However that would surely cost me a couple thousand dollars, which would buy some nice coilovers.

 

[b407driver]

I can't recall, last time I measured it I put it in the thread (above). I like the ride too much to worry about it, and after finally getting it off-road in Moab this week, I'm no longer worried about the assertions of people suggesting that KDSS and the TRD suspension don't 'go' together. It worked great.

 

[Big Wormz]

Nice rig! Do you by chance have a closer pic of the running boards?

 

[b407driver]

Moab pics

Couple of pics from our Spring Break trip to Moab. Weather wasn't the finest, but got a bit of wheeling in, nothing real major, but did get to stretch the suspension to its limits and see how it handled on fast washboard and bumpy roads.

 

[b407driver]

How would you describe the feel of the suspension? If you've driven the pro, is there any difference in ride quality? What about vs stock?

Sorry I missed this question...

Never driven a TRD Pro, so cannot comment on the difference in ride. I've also never driven a stock Trail off-road, so not sure anything I say will help. Highway/street ride is a bit less 'wallow' than a stock Trail, and the KDSS really helps keep body roll under control; soaks up road bumps admirably, especially at speed. Only have about 50 miles off-road (this last week), and it performed well despite some assertions that the TRD Pro suspension is not 'made for' KDSS. High-speed washboard was fine, the tires stayed glued to the road and never felt drifty, but you have to account for tires in that equation, as well (Cooper AT3 "C", stock size).

 

[b407driver]

Nice rig! Do you by chance have a closer pic of the running boards?

This is about all I have:

 

[b407driver]

How far off is yours at this point?

I measured mine a couple times throughout the day on surfaces that I thought were level.

I saw between 1/2" and 7/8" delta on the rear so either the system varies the pressure it puts against the piston or minute surface differences cause drastic lean changes.

It's bugging me nearly enough to trade it in on a '14 non-KDSS the dealer has right now. However that would surely cost me a couple thousand dollars, which would buy some nice coilovers.

So what did you decide to do?

 

[Throwback]

I wrote the dealer a $1500 check and traded for a non-KDSS 2014 TE with 22k miles. I had my KO2s installed on the new-to-me truck. The wanted to just trade the wheels and mounted tires, but mine were pretty scratched and rashed, while these were mint with OEM tires.

Overall it's in significantly better condition than mine was inside and out, and of course there's the mileage difference (39k vs 22k).

In the end I spent the money because I wanted to and because it made me happy. I MUCH prefer the ride and handling (and simplicity) of the standard non-KDSS suspension, although I don't have any plans to modify the stock running gear at this point in time.

I didn't like the MGM as much as Classic Silver at first, but it's grown on me and now I prefer it.

 

[Twin Screws]

Answering that question directly would be a bit like apples and oranges; no two situations are alike, and I don't really want to put anyone in a weird situation. That being said, this process is easy enough to start the negotiations on:

1) Walk in and ask to buy a TRD Pro

2) When they say they don't have any, ask them how long it would take to get one

3) When they tell you 3-6 months, ask them how much it would cost for that basic TRD Pro

4) When they give you that number, then say: "OK, how about you take a Trail Premium and build me a TRD Pro out of it, same price?"

5) And then the negotiating begins...

As you probably know, Trails don't last long around here, and many/most are sold before they hit the lot; if you have lots of specific ideas about what you do/don't want, you have to do like I did and order one that was allocated but still being built. MS probably could have gotten one from another dealer, but I wasn't really in a hurry, though the wait did nearly kill me! lol

So that being said, a TRD Pro would have been $43,990 (no TTL) with crossbars, mats, running boards and paint protection here in CO; I paid 44,498 for the conversion. I did pick up the TRD skid plate outside of this deal, so the difference was actually $758.

Good enough for me, considering I have KDSS and a sunroof. :spy:

This was basically the same route I attempted but I couldnt get the numbers to match. My dealer would have cost me more to build a Pro knock off from the TRD Offroad I wanted than just paying top dollar for a Pro if I found one.

They had a beautiful 2017 TRD Offroad I wanted really bad so I grabbed it and I will have it modded with aftermarket parts to get what I want.

So far I am loving this truck.

 

[b407driver]

This was basically the same route I attempted but I couldnt get the numbers to match. My dealer would have cost me more to build a Pro knock off from the TRD Offroad I wanted than just paying top dollar for a Pro if I found one.

They had a beautiful 2017 TRD Offroad I wanted really bad so I grabbed it and I will have it modded with aftermarket parts to get what I want.

So far I am loving this truck.

Excellent, nothing wrong with being able to custom build it exactly how you want!

Dealers are totally squirrelly when it comes to doing the extra work involved; my local dealer (Stevinson) wanted to totally screw me on parts costs (+25 to 33% retail), but luckily Mountain States was reasonable.

Enjoy your new truck!

 

[b407driver]

I wrote the dealer a $1500 check and traded for a non-KDSS 2014 TE with 22k miles. I had my KO2s installed on the new-to-me truck. The wanted to just trade the wheels and mounted tires, but mine were pretty scratched and rashed, while these were mint with OEM tires.

Overall it's in significantly better condition than mine was inside and out, and of course there's the mileage difference (39k vs 22k).

In the end I spent the money because I wanted to and because it made me happy. I MUCH prefer the ride and handling (and simplicity) of the standard non-KDSS suspension, although I don't have any plans to modify the stock running gear at this point in time.

I didn't like the MGM as much as Classic Silver at first, but it's grown on me and now I prefer it.

Sounds like you made out!

By the way, I assume your new truck is perfectly level?