Haweka Adapter

[sterbenlicht]

Forums like this one can be very useful for an almost infinite number of things, but from time to time I see things like this that are the result of a lack of information. This is neither a rant nor an attack on anyone, but simply an accurate explanation of everything you should need to know if you have a balance-related vibration and dispel the Haweka misconceptions replacing them with facts.

There are many references to a tool called a Haweka adapter that is "necessary" for properly balancing wheels, but from the looks of it, practically no one knows exactly what this thing is, what it does, how it can help, or if it's even necessary at all. This has perpetuated a tremendous amount of support for something that quite frankly, they don't even understand.

Also spawning from the same lack of information are debates about lug-centric vs. hub-centric wheels, and a lot of faith in Toyota Service Bulletins without knowing much about them.

While I generally don't start threads, I do like to contribute when I know I can possibly help people solve issues. That is, after all, the greatest benefit to being a member of a place like this. Seeing people's toys and getting ideas for modifications are a bit of a bonus in my opinion because getting knowledgeable and experienced people's advice while avoiding the high cost of taking your vehicle to a shop or dealership is priceless.

Since joining this site, I've heard mention of this Haweka adapter a lot, but I've hardly seen a word explaining what it really does to help with balancing wheels. In addition to that, I've seen a lot of references to the T-SB which brought this adapter to everyone's attention. I'm not sure how many people have actually read the service bulletin, but it appears few have actually digested it fully.

First, a quick word about service bulletins. They are not gospel. They can more accurately be described as pacifiers. They have one valuable trait, and that is that they offer a solution to a problem. When Toyota knows there is a common issue, they start investigating it. When they find a solution, they release a bulletin to inform technicians in order to avoid unnecessary time spent solving a problem that Toyota has already solved. In some cases, they provide information about the cause of a problem, other times they only describe the problem and give the solution. Sometimes they aren't even to address problems at all, but rather to offer advice for technicians and customers to make their ownership experience better such as suggestions for A/C settings to avoid HVAC system odors.

In some situations, a problem may be extremely common, and owners would become frustrated if Toyota didn't do something to make things right. In these cases, they'll release a bulletin paired with a warranty extension or enhancement to cover cost of fixing the problem for the customer free of charge. Sun visors on Camrys and sliding door cables on Siennas are examples of these.

When Toyota does actually offer an explanation, it's often more of a joke than anything else. It usually isn't scientific, and more closely resembles a kid's excuse for why chores weren't done.

As mentioned, service bulletins do offer solutions, but often lack accurate explanations of the problem. This is the case with T-SB-SU002-96. To start with, it applies to all Toyota five and six-lug alloy and steel wheels. This is quite literally nearly all of their wheels. Knowing they recommend this device with all of their wheels, but also knowing most of the Toyotas on the road have sufficiently balanced tires, and knowing most technicians don't know what a Haweka adapter is or how to use it, some common sense should start to take over and force you to look for the common denominator.

The common denominator is humans balancing the tires, and their competence at doing so.

There is no mysterious cause for imbalanced wheels and tires that can be solved with a Haweka adapter. The Haweka adapter also has absolutely nothing to do with your lug pattern, the number of lugs you have, the position of them, the size of the wheel, the material your wheel is made of, or even whether it mounts lug-centrically or hub-centrically. Its only job, as is also described in the service bulletin, is to apply even pressure to the points where the wheel mounts to the vehicle in a manner that can be repeated over and over with all wheels. This way, they eliminate a variable: balancer mounting mistakes by technicians. It is an adjustable tool and does not perfectly zero in on lug stud openings in the wheel. They're just very close approximations so they can stay in constant contact as the wheel positions itself flat against the balancer hub all while the pressure from the back cone centers it. It is still being centered by a back cone in the hub opening.

If technicians use normal front cones and a wing nut to hold the wheel on the backside centering cone, there is the potential for mounting the wheel with a very slight wobble, off-center, or with tension on one edge of the front cone that relieves itself when spinning or hammering on weights. These are often common with inexperienced technicians, and they can all be avoided if using the Haweka adapter because it will ensure the wheel is mounted straight and true the same way pretty much every time. None of this, however, will account for a damaged wheel hub opening or damaged centering cone. If this is the case, your wheel will not come out balanced simply because of the Haweka's pseudo-lug-centric characteristics, because that's not what it's doing at all.

Toyota's wheels are hub-centric. Even their steel wheels, although the steel ones can almost be considered both hub and lug centric. Steel wheels have lug nuts with tapered ends so as they approach the wheel and get tightened, they will force the wheel to align with the studs in a lug-centric manner. The wheel is still centered primarily by the hub, but is then also aligned to the studs secondarily to the hub-centering upon tightening.

Alloy wheels on the other hand lack stud-centering characteristics. The lug nuts that hold them on are straight and have a flanged surface perpendicular to the stud with a flat washer to distribute the torque across the surface of the wheel around the lug holes. If tapered lugs were used, they would exert too much pressure on the edge of the openings and the openings would become deformed. Variations in the holes would result in false torqe values for the lug nuts and wheels could fall off as the alloy surface becomes more deformed and nuts loosen up. Alloy wheel lug nuts have one function: mash the wheel flat against the hub with reliable torque specifications. They have a small tapered end simply because the spare is often a steel wheel and they will be necessary for proper torque.

So why then have some people finally found success when having their wheels balanced with this adapter when all other attempts failed?

Because your vehicle is now considered a "come-back" because intitial service wasn't done properly. Now you're on their high-priority list, and they'll pay more attention to your situation than they did the first time. Wheel balancing is usually more of a hassle than it's worth for technicians...especially with trucks with heavier tires. They'll balance your tires and kick it out the door unless you complained about a vibration. In this case they may test drive it up to 55-60, but won't spend much time because they know they just balanced the wheels and it should be fine.

If you return with a vibration, they'll first assume something was probably done wrong or the machine was incorrect, so they'll do the same thing again, possibly on a different machine. They're more likely to test drive it this time more thoroughly too. If you still manage to get your vehicle returned to you with a vibration, the cause will probably be found. It's usually because the same technician is doing something incorrect, or because the equipment is faulty, or because the wheels or tires are faulty.

That's where road force balancing comes in, which is the last part of this Haweka myth. Almost 100% of tires that have a balance vibration that can't be solved with proper technique on a standard dynamic balancer can be solved by adding road force to the equation. A free-spinning wheel simply gets balanced as far as weight imbalance of the wheel and tires are concerned. Spinning these wheels off the ground around 55 mph would be smooth as glass. But tires have imperfections...especially truck tires.

Tires have slight issues with concentric form, and can be slightly out of round even when mounted on a perfect wheel. Rubber compounds also have imperfections and can have harder and softer spots. These imperfections can result in a spring effect when these areas of the tire strike the pavement during rotation. The road force balancer will apply a road simulating sensor roller to the tire surface and determine the force the tire is exerting upon it.

More often than not, your come-back vibration issue gets a road force balance for free in the end simply because they need to go to whatever lengths necessary to get you taken care of. If you have an experienced, competent technician working on your vehicle in the first place, it will likely never reach this point. Either way, I can assure you, the Haweka adapter wasn't your saving grace. Competence was. This is something for which the Haweka is an adequate substitute.

Moral of the story, the Haweka can help, but in all likelihood, the competence will.

 

[02SE]

I applaud your willingness to type all that out. I simply don't have the patience.

I agree that the common cause of poor balance jobs, especially on a Road Force Balancer, is an incompetent operator. It's particularly sad when you as the customer have to show the 'Tech' how to use the machine they are paid to use.

 

[fourwd1]

Sorry, i fell asleep reading this

 

[infamousRNR]

I was literally just thinking about this adapter and its helpfulness the entire day and then I come home to my favorite website and find this.

Very informative and insightful.

Thank you for taking the time to explain WHY balancing can go wrong and does go wrong because of humans ....

Now all we need is a list of competent places to take your truck to get balanced..A master list of sorts.....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Honestly I find the Haweka adapter to be a better method of mounting the rim to the machine, mainly for its consistently. I watch most of my co-workers ignore the tool and have to chase weights, while I typically never do. While Toyota's wheels are typically hub-centric, the use of an adapter such as the Haweka style tends to center the wheel better in my experience when combined with a support cone like detailed in TSBs, the fingers are tapered as well and will center the rim usually better than just a single front cone.

The theory on the lug nuts being tapered doesn't sound bad. But I believe it has more to do with the fact that the holes for the lug studs are faced flat with a perpendicular wall. The tapered tip lug nuts make wheel installation more forgiving and allow the wheel to "correct" itself is a lug stud is not perfectly align. Most of our factory wheels in modern Toyotas that have steel rims will often have "spare tire" lug nuts to use in the case of some models of Rav4 and such, which tells me there was enough of a difference to warrant slightly different lug nuts in some cases.

The nice thing is that you don't need the "Haweka" brand unit, there's a lot of good adapters that function similarly. The main idea is about centering the wheel properly on the machine, particularly for road-force variation. We have one of our FST specify that he wants less than .016" Road Force variation when balancing under warranty for a vibration (considering that the Hunter machine we use is defaulted to .026" from the factory and most shops rarely if ever mess with the settings, that's pretty damn specific and often difficult to do even with a Haweka style adapter and brand new rims and good quality tires!) It comes down to partially eliminating human error, but assisting the technician in creating the best possible repeatable balance and not just the "oh its green this time, lets slap it on the car before the machine changes its mind" balance. (Then again I always road-force balance all of my customer's tires because, well it's what I'd do to my vehicle and it doesn't take me more than a couple extra minutes to do a road-force per tire vs. a standard "flat-rate" balance; but I will say that even with road-force there is a noticeable reduction of weight needed to balance out the tire vs. just front coning on a properly calibrated machine.)

Not saying the OP's point is invalid, but more pointing out the devil's advocate side of it.

 

[sterbenlicht]

Honestly I find the Haweka adapter to be a better method of mounting the rim to the machine, mainly for its consistently. I watch most of my co-workers ignore the tool and have to chase weights, while I typically never do. While Toyota's wheels are typically hub-centric, the use of an adapter such as the Haweka style tends to center the wheel better in my experience when combined with a support cone like detailed in TSBs, the fingers are tapered as well and will center the rim usually better than just a single front cone.

The theory on the lug nuts being tapered doesn't sound bad. But I believe it has more to do with the fact that the holes for the lug studs are faced flat with a perpendicular wall. The tapered tip lug nuts make wheel installation more forgiving and allow the wheel to "correct" itself is a lug stud is not perfectly align. Most of our factory wheels in modern Toyotas that have steel rims will often have "spare tire" lug nuts to use in the case of some models of Rav4 and such, which tells me there was enough of a difference to warrant slightly different lug nuts in some cases.

The nice thing is that you don't need the "Haweka" brand unit, there's a lot of good adapters that function similarly. The main idea is about centering the wheel properly on the machine, particularly for road-force variation. We have one of our FST specify that he wants less than .016" Road Force variation when balancing under warranty for a vibration (considering that the Hunter machine we use is defaulted to .026" from the factory and most shops rarely if ever mess with the settings, that's pretty damn specific and often difficult to do even with a Haweka style adapter and brand new rims and good quality tires!) It comes down to partially eliminating human error, but assisting the technician in creating the best possible repeatable balance and not just the "oh its green this time, lets slap it on the car before the machine changes its mind" balance. (Then again I always road-force balance all of my customer's tires because, well it's what I'd do to my vehicle and it doesn't take me more than a couple extra minutes to do a road-force per tire vs. a standard "flat-rate" balance; but I will say that even with road-force there is a noticeable reduction of weight needed to balance out the tire vs. just front coning on a properly calibrated machine.)

Not saying the OP's point is invalid, but more pointing out the devil's advocate side of it.

It looks like you sort of just repeated most of what I said...even the part about the lug nuts.

The Haweka exists because of its consistency, and it isn't centering the wheel at all. The back cone is. It's just holding it in a repeatable position on that back cone.

If using it helps you balance wheels properly, then I'm very glad you're using it.

As for everything else, I knew posting something like this would result in a few people really wanting to argue about it. These aren't theories and they aren't opinions. There isn't even really much room for debate. I wrote it with that exact purpose behind it because the constant back and forth between people who simply aren't aware is perpetuating something negative. I'd rather see people advising one another to go to places that can balance tires properly, and recommending road force balancing rather than chasing facilities that use this adapter. The adapter is not the important variable here, and deserves far less attention.

 

[98OzarksRunner]

Great information. The only balance issues I've ever had on my 4Runner(s - 6 in all) is when one had some out-of-round tires that simply wouldn't spin balance. The rest were done on typical balancers (with the cone) and were fine, since Toyota factory alloy wheels are hub-centered. I have brought one back once or twice when it wasn't quite right (technician issue) and once when a wheel weight flew off on my drive home. Thanks for the 'scientific' explanation. This should be a sticky.

 

[IBallEngineer]

More often than not, your come-back vibration issue gets a road force balance for free in the end simply because they need to go to whatever lengths necessary to get you taken care of. If you have an experienced, competent technician working on your vehicle in the first place, it will likely never reach this point. Either way, I can assure you, the Haweka adapter wasn't your saving grace. Competence was. This is something for which the Haweka is an adequate substitute.

Moral of the story, the Haweka can help, but in all likelihood, the road force probably will.

Haweka is a company that builds virtually ALL the tooling for wheel balancers. There is no such thing as a "Haweka" tool. Haweka also builds heavy truck wheel alignment equipment that is private branded in the US for Snap on under the John Bean name.

Road Force is a joke. Properly measured computer balancing can give you all the harmonics necessary to properly balance any tire/wheel combination, even a square one. I wish I had time to write my own 10,000 word manifesto, but I will address it in more detail later.

:cheer2:

 

[sterbenlicht]

Haweka is a company that builds virtually ALL the tooling for wheel balancers. There is no such thing as a "Haweka" tool. Haweka also builds heavy truck wheel alignment equipment that is private branded in the US for Snap on under the John Bean name.

Road Force is a joke. Properly measured computer balancing can give you all the harmonics necessary to properly balance any tire/wheel combination, even a square one. I wish I had time to write my own 10,000 word manifesto, but I will address it in more detail later.

:cheer2:

Fair statement, but I'm not sure where it comes from. Those road force balancing machines are proven. I can't tell you how many times a stubborn wheel wouldn't seem to properly balance out even though standard machines said it was balanced. And there's a reason for why it works, not a joke for why it works although much of the stuff a road force balancer puts you through before getting to the important stuff is a joke.

And yes, you can balance anything you want with a proper machine. You can tape a banana to the wheel and balance it out. Tire rubber, especially that in LT tires has significant pressure spots with very little forgiveness in the rubber that do in fact create the same kind of vibration as a weight imbalance. Calling it a joke is what people tend to do when something like that first comes out and people gripe about the change. Road force balancing is far beyond that stage.

Toyota recommended going with the Haweka adapter because of consistent results. Not because of its magical ability to center the wheel in a way normal equipment wouldn't.

From here out, I'm not going to debate it with anyone. You can all flame me or the thread, voice your opinions on the matter if you like, swear your day was saved by something you don't understand, or whatever. I've seen hundreds of thousands of tires balanced over the years, and no problems solved by any one of our six Haweka adapter plates. I've seen countless repeat repairs solved on truck tires by implementing use of road force measurement.

At the end of the day, I can balance anyone's tires properly while the Haweka adapters continue gathering the dust that currently cover them.

 

[Unner]

I had a shake at 72 mph in my 4Runner. I took it down to the new Firestone here, and told them I wanted the lifetime balance on my tires and it came out perfect. No more shimmy at all. I didn't say anything to them about using a certain adapter or machine or whatever. I figure'd they'd get it right. The 3rd gen 4Runner is still a very common vehicle that they probably see a lot of. If they hadn't got it right I would have just taken it back and told them.

 

[96LTDrus]

Glad to see this healthy discussion going on, I think sparked by my thread about highway shakes and my experiences with balancing. I agree that the overarching theme to wheel balancing is it all comes down to the guy doing it.

I had gone to a discount tire initially before I know about all of the controversy and how sensitive the OEM wheels are to a good balance (or how sensitive the truck itself is to having balanced wheels?). I got the truck back and it shook worse than when I brought it in. I came back and the manager himself set it up and did the whole road force thing. Still no good. At this point I was becoming a nuisance to them, I told the guy about the TSB and how sensitive the vehicles were to a proper balance but he just got angry and gave me a refund. I finally went to a Toyota dealer and explained the issue to them, and got a good balance on my summer wheels. So when I went with my winter wheels I expected the same good result. Problem was the service department was swamped that day and my balancing job was given to one of the lube techs, the minimally experienced young guys that just flew through the job. Result was poorly balanced wheels. Finally I went back and spoke to the right person who set me up with the right technician, using the right tools and taking his time. Now in my case I still get occasional shakes, but hopefully the LCA bushing replacement sorted that out, we'll see!

 

[sterbenlicht]

Glad to see this healthy discussion going on, I think sparked by my thread about highway shakes and my experiences with balancing. I agree that the overarching theme to wheel balancing is it all comes down to the guy doing it.

I had gone to a discount tire initially before I know about all of the controversy and how sensitive the OEM wheels are to a good balance (or how sensitive the truck itself is to having balanced wheels?). I got the truck back and it shook worse than when I brought it in. I came back and the manager himself set it up and did the whole road force thing. Still no good. At this point I was becoming a nuisance to them, I told the guy about the TSB and how sensitive the vehicles were to a proper balance but he just got angry and gave me a refund. I finally went to a Toyota dealer and explained the issue to them, and got a good balance on my summer wheels. So when I went with my winter wheels I expected the same good result. Problem was the service department was swamped that day and my balancing job was given to one of the lube techs, the minimally experienced young guys that just flew through the job. Result was poorly balanced wheels. Finally I went back and spoke to the right person who set me up with the right technician, using the right tools and taking his time. Now in my case I still get occasional shakes, but hopefully the LCA bushing replacement sorted that out, we'll see!

Yours was just about the 50th thread about the balance issues that I've seen regarding it. I definitely hope you figure out the remainder of your vibration problem, but now you're into the tricky ones. I would say you're right about the fact that our trucks are more sensitive to vibrations. I don't know why, but these older 4Runners and the same generation Tacomas are constant gremlins in our shop, but usually because they've brought it to us after having tires mounted and balanced somewhere like Treadquarters or other tire shops.

Tire balancing machines see a lot of abuse, and they lose their calibration from time to time with all the wear and tear paired with people doing things incorrectly. Our shop sees such incredibly high volume, that we usually spot a messed up machine pretty early. If a vehicle comes back, we'll know it was done on one particular machine. If another vehicle comes back and we find out it was the same machine, we'll call the Hunter people to come fix it. Meanwhile, we have four other balancers to get the job done with.

This discussion about the Haweka adapter exploded for Toyotas because someone saw the T-SB somewhere ages ago. Similar things happen all the time. People will bring their vehicles in complaining that they think their vehicle is exhibiting problems they heard about in a online somewhere. It grows and gets out of control. The same recommendation exists for a lot of manufacturers, not just Toyota. There's a bit of an art to consistently mounting wheels on balancers so that they are centered and straight and it takes practice. Haweka adapters are a hassle to set up each time, but they eliminate the art to it if you feel like doing it time and time again.

 

[nevada]

Honestly I find the Haweka adapter to be a better method of mounting the rim to the machine, mainly for its consistently. I watch most of my co-workers ignore the tool and have to chase weights, while I typically never do. While Toyota's wheels are typically hub-centric, the use of an adapter such as the Haweka style tends to center the wheel better in my experience when combined with a support cone like detailed in TSBs, the fingers are tapered as well and will center the rim usually better than just a single front cone.

The theory on the lug nuts being tapered doesn't sound bad. But I believe it has more to do with the fact that the holes for the lug studs are faced flat with a perpendicular wall. The tapered tip lug nuts make wheel installation more forgiving and allow the wheel to "correct" itself is a lug stud is not perfectly align. Most of our factory wheels in modern Toyotas that have steel rims will often have "spare tire" lug nuts to use in the case of some models of Rav4 and such, which tells me there was enough of a difference to warrant slightly different lug nuts in some cases.

The nice thing is that you don't need the "Haweka" brand unit, there's a lot of good adapters that function similarly. The main idea is about centering the wheel properly on the machine, particularly for road-force variation. We have one of our FST specify that he wants less than .016" Road Force variation when balancing under warranty for a vibration (considering that the Hunter machine we use is defaulted to .026" from the factory and most shops rarely if ever mess with the settings, that's pretty damn specific and often difficult to do even with a Haweka style adapter and brand new rims and good quality tires!) It comes down to partially eliminating human error, but assisting the technician in creating the best possible repeatable balance and not just the "oh its green this time, lets slap it on the car before the machine changes its mind" balance. (Then again I always road-force balance all of my customer's tires because, well it's what I'd do to my vehicle and it doesn't take me more than a couple extra minutes to do a road-force per tire vs. a standard "flat-rate" balance; but I will say that even with road-force there is a noticeable reduction of weight needed to balance out the tire vs. just front coning on a properly calibrated machine.)

Not saying the OP's point is invalid, but more pointing out the devil's advocate side of it.

for the vehicles that run aluminum wheels/shank lug nuts, and carry a steel spare...
usually the lug nuts will have an acorn also, for use with the spare, as opposed to special lug nuts just for the spare..


the road force may be a great machine, but tires have been balanced on a standard machine for many years, with great results. long before the RF machine was available. it is just another tool to get the job done, but its not the ONLY tool.

 

[sterbenlicht]

I'm not saying there are special lug nuts just because of spare tires. All Toyota alloy wheels have a specific shape at the tip across the board, and that is the reason. It serves all models because practically all models come with steel spare options. In this case, the washer just rattles and sits far away from the steel wheel because it isn't being used. The part of it that is being used is the part that mimics standard tapered lug nuts that steel wheels require, acorns included. For that reason, the alloy wheel lug nuts are suitable for all of their wheels, but they look a bit ugly when used on steelies.

And you're completely right, tires have been balanced for ages without the technology. The larger the diameter of the tire, the faster the vehicle has to be traveling for imbalances to compound upon themselves so that it becomes noticeable in the vehicle. A very small wheel can be noticed as slow as the 40 mph range, while a 35 needs to be traveling substantially faster. I have one of the older tried and true balancers in my own garage here at home, but I know its limitations. Because very large tires need to be traveling well over 60mph to feel problems, you can sometimes get away with not balancing them at all. The point is, large tires that seemed balanced, weren't always necessarily so. There is a narrow range of standard size daily use tires that benefit from road force balancing, which is why it usually solves the most stubborn cases. If I mount a large Nitto Terra Grappler at home and balance it, it may not be felt, but if it is, I will have to take it to work to eliminate the remainder of the problem. This is becoming more common because we're lifting brand new vehicles and putting aftermarket components on them and customers still expect them to ride like brand new vehicles. (or as they put it, like a Lexus or a Cadillac)

I'm not a big fan of pushing the road force balancing, and that's not the purpose of this thread. It has a very particular purpose, and in every case of vibration that turns out to be wheel/tire related, it has always been determined to be operator error, damaged wheel, defective tire, or faulty or damaged equipment. Figuring out which is where it gets difficult. People insisting this adapter is what is solving their problem just don't realize that their persistence actually solved one of the other issues instead.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Fair statement, but I'm not sure where it comes from. Those road force balancing machines are proven. I can't tell you how many times a stubborn wheel wouldn't seem to properly balance out even though standard machines said it was balanced. And there's a reason for why it works, not a joke for why it works although much of the stuff a road force balancer puts you through before getting to the important stuff is a joke.

And yes, you can balance anything you want with a proper machine. You can tape a banana to the wheel and balance it out. Tire rubber, especially that in LT tires has significant pressure spots with very little forgiveness in the rubber that do in fact create the same kind of vibration as a weight imbalance. Calling it a joke is what people tend to do when something like that first comes out and people gripe about the change. Road force balancing is far beyond that stage.

Toyota recommended going with the Haweka adapter because of consistent results. Not because of its magical ability to center the wheel in a way normal equipment wouldn't.

From here out, I'm not going to debate it with anyone. You can all flame me or the thread, voice your opinions on the matter if you like, swear your day was saved by something you don't understand, or whatever. I've seen hundreds of thousands of tires balanced over the years, and no problems solved by any one of our six Haweka adapter plates. I've seen countless repeat repairs solved on truck tires by implementing use of road force measurement.

At the end of the day, I can balance anyone's tires properly while the Haweka adapters continue gathering the dust that currently cover them.

I'm not far off of your beliefs, I just don't like the Hunter product, or it's use of the roller. Radial Force Variation can be measured accurately without it and to me it's like using a plastic megaphone instead of a telephone to talk to your neighbor. Maybe not quite that archaic, but still caveman in the modern world of strain gauges and computer calculated algorithms. Road Force was a good marketing concept, nothing more.

The use of the lugcentric adapter plate on hubcentric wheels is as you say only relevant to consistency, not balance accuracy. A back coned wheel is STILL being centered on the hub, and the front adapter is better than a plastic spacer that has been thrown around and beat up. The real benefit of the lugcentric adapter in my opinion is in not contacting the wheel face, and duplicating(or simulating) the mounting on the vehicle.

I understand your frustration with the endless threads. I am the same way about people posting that the alignment shop couldn't make their car go straight, or whatever. Bottom line is the problem is NOT the machine, or the adapter, its the execution of the process. TECHNICIANS are the number one reason wheels don't balance correctly.

OK, I'll stop before I start posting frequency and resonance charts. Or balancing theory presentations. Glad to see you are frustrated, it gives me hope.

eace:

 

[sterbenlicht]

The Hunter products might really be more marketing than they are science. I don't know enough about them to judge that aspect. I also get the impression from you that you know more about it, and I believe 100% of what you're saying.

With other methods available, I can only assume the methods used by most automotive service centers are chosen because of the lack of expertise in what you're saying, or most likely because of affordability issues.

I can only attest to the fact that they do something that the other standard balancers do not, and they do it time and time again. So much so, that their ability to accomplish a special task is undeniable. The proof is in the pudding, but it would appear the other higher quality pudding out there just isn't available to us, and that stuff is outside of my realm.

On a similar note, if you haven't already seen it, you might get a kick out of Hunter's latest mounting machine. It almost entirely dismounts and mounts tires for you with very little help from a technician. I'm not sure I'd call it impressive, but it's something to see. The main thing I see when I watch it is a machine that will result in technicians who don't even know how to mount a tire.

 

[IBallEngineer]

The Hunter products might really be more marketing than they are science. I don't know enough about them to judge that aspect. I also get the impression from you that you know more about it, and I believe 100% of what you're saying.

With other methods available, I can only assume the methods used by most automotive service centers are chosen because of the lack of expertise in what you're saying, or most likely because of affordability issues.

I can only attest to the fact that they do something that the other standard balancers do not, and they do it time and time again. So much so, that their ability to accomplish a special task is undeniable. The proof is in the pudding, but it would appear the other higher quality pudding out there just isn't available to us, and that stuff is outside of my realm.

On a similar note, if you haven't already seen it, you might get a kick out of Hunter's latest mounting machine. It almost entirely dismounts and mounts tires for you with very little help from a technician. I'm not sure I'd call it impressive, but it's something to see. The main thing I see when I watch it is a machine that will result in technicians who don't even know how to mount a tire.

Yes I do know more about it, and yes I have seen Hunter's machine. There are a few, were you looking at the Auto 34? To be fair the reasoning behind the automated machines is the advent of run flat and ultra low profile tires, as well as the proliferation of heavy SUV tires and wheels. Operator fatigue plays a big role in accidents, injury, wheel or tire damage. I don't need to tell you how much some of these tires are costing these days. Leverless mount/dismount machines have been around a while, the automation is just fluff, you can still use them manually.

My son doesn't know how to use a rotary dialed phone, but that doesn't stop him from using a smart phone. Technology is leaving us old farts behind.

Check it out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J_4w-GxYPc

 

[02SE]

Technology is leaving us old farts behind.

Only if we let it.

 

[Konkordmusk]

I applaud your willingness to type all that out. I simply don't have the patience.

I agree that the common cause of poor balance jobs, especially on a Road Force Balancer, is an incompetent operator. It's particularly sad when you as the customer have to show the 'Tech' how to use the machine they are paid to use.

Came in to say just about this.
We have the Hunter (sorry Iball ) GSP9200 at work, and it has a Centering Check capability. I've never had to use it, but it serves its purpose in eliminating human error I'm sure. I also calibrate the machine weekly.
I haven't yet had a customer with SUV tires and oversize tires complain about vibration, including myself with 315's. This isn't to brag about my skill but rather to clarify that the lug-centric adapter is NOT necessary for accurate Toyota wheel balancing.

That being said, I would estimate that a greater number of shops would have the GSP9200 OR equivalent (focusing on the Centering Check), than the more pricey GSP9700. It could be as simple as mentioning "Hey, when your tech balances my wheels, can you ask him to perform the centering check?" Takes all of just a few seconds, really, and a competent manager would see to it that it gets done to prevent the dreaded comeback.

Here's a picture of a happy, balanced wheel/tire on the Hunter GSP9200

 

[BlackWorksInc]

...

The use of the lugcentric adapter plate on hubcentric wheels is as you say only relevant to consistency, not balance accuracy. A back coned wheel is STILL being centered on the hub, and the front adapter is better than a plastic spacer that has been thrown around and beat up. The real benefit of the lugcentric adapter in my opinion is in not contacting the wheel face, and duplicating(or simulating) the mounting on the vehicle.

...

This is mostly what I was getting at , while the wheels are hub-centric, I've noticed far better results when using an adapter that mimics how the wheel sits on the vehicle in terms of weight distribution and wobble. Since you use a centering cone on the back and the finger adapter (not entirely sure who said it's hard to set-up as its just sliding it on instead of a plastic cone...) it holds it more evenly which will translate to a more true rotation. Some of our wheels I have seen get a bit cock-eyed because the face is not even, for example the picture linked in the above post shows a wheel that I often see not sitting flat when people mount them like that. The lands that center cap sits on are not really machined to a strict tolerance and I have noticed gaps sometimes where they don't touch; not to mention usually technicians are cranking down the plastic cap so hard it's deformed against the lands and then you can see the tire wobble.

The only things on the wheel that are machined as close to parallel as possible are the back side of the wheel were it mounts to the hub, the lug nut reliefs, and the bore of the hub. Everything else is not a reliable source to mount/secure by (in the sense that it will not apply consistent pressure all around) and could cause the wheel to sit unevenly. What I was mentioning before is that you can physically see the wheel sitting straighter as it spins when using the back-cone & finger adapter as the TSB states, than when simply back coning with the plastic cone on the outside, or front coning. I've also notice a correlation between a lower amount of weight needed to balance the rims when using the back-cone & finger adapter than when using a more traditional style mounting; again I think this is because most of the Toyota 6-lug wheels are not flat faced where the front cone adapter fits in and using the finger adapter seats them more naturally to the vehicle.

This is mostly stuff I have noticed when dealing with LT or large diameter off-road tires more than factory sized tires by the way. You're right that I am mostly repeating what you're saying, but I disagree that a person should be looking more for a road-force balance than the tire being more perfectly matched to the hub-face of the machine. Again, the "Haweka Adapter" is just a fancy name, most if not all tire shops should have at least 1 6x137.7mm adapter (usually its just a plate with a ton of other holes on it for various patterns); if they don't have that tool to a the very least double-check comebacks I wouldn't be too confident in their ability to balance a tire, much in the way I wouldn't be too confident in a shop that has no center lift on their alignment machine doing a proper alignment on a 4Runner.