highlander gets routinely re-design, why not 4Runner

[Natetroknot]

highlander gets routinely re-design every 6-7 years with lots of electronic bell and whistles, why does it take so long for 4Runner to get re-design? and add some electronic bell and whistles, such as TSS (Toyota Safety Sense), BSM with RCTA, ICS with RCTB, ...

The last thing I want is all the safety crap and electronic bells and whistles! Thankful there are still a few vehicles being built that I can drive myself!

 

[Mudballz]

If it ain’t broke then don’t fix it son
Designed from within
Mike :brick:

 

[jsun_2k]

The last thing I want is all the safety crap and electronic bells and whistles! Thankful there are still a few vehicles being built that I can drive myself!

The least Toyota can do is to make carplay work

 

[Natetroknot]

^^^^ agreed, they've always been behind the curve with infotainment

 

[Baystate4Runner]

Let's hope Toyota doesn't do to the 4Runner what Nissan did to the Pathfinder.

That would make the 4Runner a Highlander. So it’s unlikely Toyota would do that as they would end up with two similar vehicles in their fleet.

 

[johnbt]

"add some electronic bell and whistles, such as TSS (Toyota Safety Sense), BSM with RCTA, ICS with RCTB, ..."
.
I don't even know what all that crap is. I guess I don't need it. :brick:

Don't get me wrong, I like useful technology like Loomis Conquest fishing rods, Daiwa Steez and Shimano Metanium reels and such, although I haven't found a use for reels with digital braking systems. I hope the big truck comes today with my 4th Conquest rod. And no, in case anybody is wondering, I didn't pay the full sticker of $649 for this one either.

 

[97BlackAckCL]

 

[Toffees]

There isn't almost any competition left to the 4Runner.

Maybe the Wrangler, Tacoma, Colorado, and Ranger.

One is a bathtub SUV with live axles and the other 3 are drastically different mid-sized trucks.

The answer is actually very simple and it's just what LC said. The 4R has no like for like competitors. The closest competitor is probably a LR Discovery. Or the Wrangler. Or the Tacoma. Or the Highlander. Or JGC... most of which have very little in common with each other.

The Highlander on the other hand must constantly update to keep itself competitive with, or unique from, its competitors. The Highlander is a very capable tall sedan, or mini minivan, whichever you prefer to call it, but these are a dime a dozen (if a dime = roughly $30,000).

While the 4R becomes more differentiated the more it stays the same.

 

[Toffees]

The answer is actually very simple and it's just what LC said. The 4R has no like for like competitors. The closest competitor is probably a LR Discovery. Or the Wrangler. Or the Tacoma. Or the Highlander. Or JGC... most of which have very little in common with each other.

The Highlander on the other hand must constantly update to keep itself competitive with, or unique from, its competitors. The Highlander is a very capable tall sedan, or mini minivan, whichever you prefer to call it, but these are a dime a dozen (if a dime = roughly $30,000).

While the 4R becomes more differentiated the more it stays the same.

I just priced out a *very fine* Discovery for only $77,000...

 

[Gecko]

I love reading all of the, "BECAUSE A 4RUNNER IS A MAN'S CAR AND WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BELLS AND WHISTLES" comments on a vehicle that has automatic and electronic everything, except for the few safety systems that surfaced in the last 4-5 years. The engine and transmission are outdated, but the 4Runner really isn't the prehistoric, testosterone-generating Conestoga wagon that helps many of you sleep at night. It's a vehicle that's old school in execution and has been minimally updated over the years because Toyota does not see the value in investing to change it.

The reality is that Toyota has tried to kill off the 4Runner multiple times over the last 20 years by neglecting it, and hoping that consumer interest will drop and they can retire it without much pushback. Somehow, their efforts to abandon and indirectly kill it have only made it more desirable to a certain group of buyers. Let's be honest - the people on this forum who buy 4Runners make up maybe 1% of owners. The rest are people who buy 4Runners based largely on their reputation for reliability, ability to tow and because they like the image and heritage.

The 4Runner has been thrown a lifeline by two things: the renewed consumer interest in SUVs, and Toyota developing a new scaleable BOF architecture (TNGA-F) that will underpin the Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, GX, Prado, Tacoma, etc. Such a platform makes producing the 4Runner less expensive and easier to justify. Once the 6th gen 4Runner arrives sometime around 2022, expect all of the things you all claim to hate to be there: Toyota safety sense, electronic power steering, an 8 or 10 speed automatic, turbo powertrain, hybrid option, etc.

The Highlander's product cycle follows the Camry and Avalon, which are all higher volume and in more competitive segments, so that's why it's updated more frequently. The Highlander is actually a priority for Toyota - the 4Runner really hasn't been since the 90s.

 

[TacoRunn0517]

If Toyota were trying to kill it off, they should've made it less reliable haha.

 

[Toffees]

I love reading all of the, "BECAUSE A 4RUNNER IS A MAN'S CAR AND WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BELLS AND WHISTLES" comments on a vehicle that has automatic and electronic everything, except for the few safety systems that surfaced in the last 4-5 years. The engine and transmission are outdated, but the 4Runner really isn't the prehistoric, testosterone-generating Conestoga wagon that helps many of you sleep at night. It's a vehicle that's old school in execution and has been minimally updated over the years because Toyota does not see the value in investing to change it.

The reality is that Toyota has tried to kill off the 4Runner multiple times over the last 20 years by neglecting it, and hoping that consumer interest will drop and they can retire it without much pushback. Somehow, their efforts to abandon and indirectly kill it have only made it more desirable to a certain group of buyers. Let's be honest - the people on this forum who buy 4Runners make up maybe 1% of owners. The rest are people who buy 4Runners based largely on their reputation for reliability, ability to tow and because they like the image and heritage.

The 4Runner has been thrown a lifeline by two things: the renewed consumer interest in SUVs, and Toyota developing a new scaleable BOF architecture (TNGA-F) that will underpin the Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, GX, Prado, Tacoma, etc. Such a platform makes producing the 4Runner less expensive and easier to justify. Once the 6th gen 4Runner arrives sometime around 2022, expect all of the things you all claim to hate to be there: Toyota safety sense, electronic power steering, an 8 or 10 speed automatic, turbo powertrain, hybrid option, etc.

The Highlander's product cycle follows the Camry and Avalon, which are all higher volume and in more competitive segments, so that's why it's updated more frequently. The Highlander is actually a priority for Toyota - the 4Runner really hasn't been since the 90s.

I think you're probably half-right. But the 4Runner's N280, while not the same as the J150, is close enough to consider them the same--and Toyota is not neglecting the J150/N280, wishing it will die. On the contrary, I think what we see is that Toyota is leaving well enough alone.

 

[TheNormsk]

Having just bought a 2019, I'm good with another 10 years of this body style.

Can't stand car companies that have to change headlight styles every year.

To be fair the 4R could do with headlight improvement. The stock lights are terrible.

Luckily it’s fairly easy to fix aftermarket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gecko]

I think you're probably half-right. But the 4Runner's N280, while not the same as the J150, is close enough to consider them the same--and Toyota is not neglecting the J150/N280, wishing it will die. On the contrary, I think what we see is that Toyota is leaving well enough alone.

Not really. Prado is sold in more global markets and Toyota HQ has felt like there is significant overlap between Highlander and 4Runner in North America, and thus, 4Runner is not really necessary. Prado/LC150 is sold in higher volume worldwide, I believe, and also shares more direct parts with the cash cow Lexus GX. 4Runner is based on the same platform, of course, but is more differentiated ($$ to produce).

Of all the 4Runner generations, 5th gen is probably the most interesting to me when you look at the product decisions and lifecycle. Why? 5th gen is really just a stylistic update of the 4th gen but they simplified the product line by eliminating the V8 and just offering one V6.

There was originally a plan for a more substantial (expensive) mid-life refresh with a new 6AT, but that was tabled in ~2010 because of the economic collapse, falling SUV sales and rising gas prices. This is where Toyota started to say, "Maybe this is the last 4Runner," so they skimped out on the refresh and plans for a 6th gen were paused. This is where Toyota doubled down on the thought that Highlander is enough coverage for the midsize SUV market and 4Runner is an expense they can cut.

The 5th gen refresh shows up in 2013 and is very minimal with only stylistic changes, but by this time, SUV sales have not only rebounded but started going wild. Thankfully for Toyota, the 4Runner is seen as a reliable, familiar name and with so many crossovers hitting the market, it starts to look unique and "cool" as a BOF SUV and sales skyrocket.

At some point around 2015-2016, with such sustained strong sales and market conditions, Toyota decides to recommit to several BOF products that were hanging in the balance (budget, resources), like Tundra and 4Runner, and the plan for a scaleable TNGA body-on-frame platform becomes a viable business case. Seeing this is such a late development timeline, full redesigns for Tundra, Land Cruiser, Sequoia and 4Runner are all pushed back, we get new refreshes for Tundra and Land Cruiser, and the "new" Tacoma is just a refresh of the old one.

With this new timeline, Toyota plans a second refresh for the 2020 4Runner sometime around 2017, focusing safety systems and infotainment that will update the 4Runner again and hold it over until the 2022 redesign. At this time, there is interest and commitment for a 6th gen 4Runner.

In some ways, the 4Runner has beat Japan's own attempts to send it off into the sunset thanks to strong market conditions and consumer interest, but it has not been for a lack of Japan trying to consolidate product lines. Now that we will have cost sharing among all BOF products, it becomes easier to make the case for a 4Runner.

In full disclosure, I used to work with a guy who was Toyota's product marketing manager over the 4Runner, FJ Cruiser and Tacoma, so I have a bit more historical context that I can't share in full detail. But yeah, there's your story.

 

[Toffees]

Not really. Prado is sold in more global markets and Toyota HQ has felt like there is significant overlap between Highlander and 4Runner in North America, and thus, 4Runner is not really necessary. Prado/LC150 is sold in higher volume worldwide, I believe, and also shares more direct parts with the cash cow Lexus GX. 4Runner is based on the same platform, of course, but is more differentiated ($$ to produce).

Of all the 4Runner generations, 5th gen is probably the most interesting to me when you look at the product decisions and lifecycle. Why? 5th gen is really just a stylistic update of the 4th gen but they simplified the product line by eliminating the V8 and just offering one V6.

There was originally a plan for a more substantial (expensive) mid-life refresh with a new 6AT, but that was tabled in ~2010 because of the economic collapse, falling SUV sales and rising gas prices. This is where Toyota started to say, "Maybe this is the last 4Runner," so they skimped out on the refresh and plans for a 6th gen were paused. This is where Toyota doubled down on the thought that Highlander is enough coverage for the midsize SUV market and 4Runner is an expense they can cut.

The 5th gen refresh shows up in 2013 and is very minimal with only stylistic changes, but by this time, SUV sales have not only rebounded but started going wild. Thankfully for Toyota, the 4Runner is seen as a reliable, familiar name and with so many crossovers hitting the market, it starts to look unique and "cool" as a BOF SUV and sales skyrocket.

At some point around 2015-2016, with such sustained strong sales and market conditions, Toyota decides to recommit to several BOF products that were hanging in the balance (budget, resources), like Tundra and 4Runner, and the plan for a scaleable TNGA body-on-frame platform becomes a viable business case. Seeing this is such a late development timeline, full redesigns for Tundra, Land Cruiser, Sequoia and 4Runner are all pushed back, we get new refreshes for Tundra and Land Cruiser, and the "new" Tacoma is just a refresh of the old one.

With this new timeline, Toyota plans a second refresh for the 2020 4Runner sometime around 2017, focusing safety systems and infotainment that will update the 4Runner again and hold it over until the 2022 redesign. At this time, there is interest and commitment for a 6th gen 4Runner.

In some ways, the 4Runner has beat Japan's own attempts to send it off into the sunset thanks to strong market conditions and consumer interest, but it has not been for a lack of Japan trying to consolidate product lines. Now that we will have cost sharing among all BOF products, it becomes easier to make the case for a 4Runner.

In full disclosure, I used to work with a guy who was Toyota's product marketing manager over the 4Runner, FJ Cruiser and Tacoma, so I have a bit more historical context that I can't share in full detail. But yeah, there's your story.

Yada, yada. Did Toyota "ignore" the 4Runner, expecting sales to wane? Maybe. I won't discount that. Does Toyota roll out features sooner on the J150 than the N280? Absolutely.

Does Toyota sell a lot of J150s? Yes. Do they ignore the J150? I don't think so. Does Toyota roll out J-platform changes to the N-plaform? Yes.

Although the Prado and 4Runner platforms began distinctly, they have been married together since 1995/96, when Toyota's J90 and N180 began converging. When the J120/N210 were released in 2002, the 4Runner was being built from the J120 design into a new design. The same is true with the J150/N280.

So, yada yada, it's the same truck. I honestly don't think Toyota thinks much about differentiating the 4Runner as a luxury product or with new features. on that much we agree. And why should they? It takes very little new engineering, they test out all new features on the J150 and roll them out to the 4Runner. It's a low cost build because they're already incurring the fixed costs to build the J150. And it sells well enough when left alone.

So is Toyota trying to kill it off? Whatever.

 

[Gecko]

Yada, yada. Did Toyota "ignore" the 4Runner, expecting sales to wane? Maybe. I won't discount that. Does Toyota roll out features sooner on the J150 than the N280? Absolutely.

Does Toyota sell a lot of J150s? Yes. Do they ignore the J150? I don't think so. Does Toyota roll out J-platform changes to the N-plaform? Yes.

Although the Prado and 4Runner platforms began distinctly, they have been married together since 1995/96, when Toyota's J90 and N180 began converging. When the J120/N210 were released in 2002, the 4Runner was being built from the J120 design into a new design. The same is true with the J150/N280.

So, yada yada, it's the same truck. I honestly don't think Toyota thinks much about differentiating the 4Runner as a luxury product or with new features. on that much we agree. And why should they? It takes very little new engineering, they test out all new features on the J150 and roll them out to the 4Runner. It's a low cost build because they're already incurring the fixed costs to build the J150. And it sells well enough when left alone.

So is Toyota trying to kill it off? Whatever.

I think we're sort of agreeing and saying the same things, but to be clear, I'm not saying Toyota ever had plans to kill the LC150/Prado as well as the 4Runner. As I've understood the plan was to keep the LC150/Prado for global markets, rebadge it as the GX here and Toyota would be "good enough" with the Highlander in USA so they drop only the 4Runner.

The good news is that I think going forward, we are going to see even greater similarity between Prado, GX and 4Runner. In fact, I expect that the next gen 4Runner may be a somewhat rebadged Prado, similar to what the GX has historically been. There would be a lot of value in this strategy - then giving GX a few sheetmetal changes and luxury touches to justify the higher price.

 

[LandCruiser]

I love reading all of the, "BECAUSE A 4RUNNER IS A MAN'S CAR AND WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BELLS AND WHISTLES" comments on a vehicle that has automatic and electronic everything, except for the few safety systems that surfaced in the last 4-5 years. The engine and transmission are outdated, but the 4Runner really isn't the prehistoric, testosterone-generating Conestoga wagon that helps many of you sleep at night. It's a vehicle that's old school in execution and has been minimally updated over the years because Toyota does not see the value in investing to change it.

The reality is that Toyota has tried to kill off the 4Runner multiple times over the last 20 years by neglecting it, and hoping that consumer interest will drop and they can retire it without much pushback. Somehow, their efforts to abandon and indirectly kill it have only made it more desirable to a certain group of buyers. Let's be honest - the people on this forum who buy 4Runners make up maybe 1% of owners. The rest are people who buy 4Runners based largely on their reputation for reliability, ability to tow and because they like the image and heritage.

The 4Runner has been thrown a lifeline by two things: the renewed consumer interest in SUVs, and Toyota developing a new scaleable BOF architecture (TNGA-F) that will underpin the Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, GX, Prado, Tacoma, etc. Such a platform makes producing the 4Runner less expensive and easier to justify. Once the 6th gen 4Runner arrives sometime around 2022, expect all of the things you all claim to hate to be there: Toyota safety sense, electronic power steering, an 8 or 10 speed automatic, turbo powertrain, hybrid option, etc.

The Highlander's product cycle follows the Camry and Avalon, which are all higher volume and in more competitive segments, so that's why it's updated more frequently. The Highlander is actually a priority for Toyota - the 4Runner really hasn't been since the 90s.

Stuff like curtain airbags, collision detection, parking sensors, etc. don't do well on a vehicle that's meant for trails.

Watching a Range Rover raise its wheels with its IRS like a dog peeing to roll over a pebble while its brakes machinegun to keep it from tipping is just cringeworthy.

If the next 4Runner has all that you listed, it won't be a 4Runner anymore and just vanish into the anonymous crossovers like the Pathfinder did.

I'm guessing if the 4Runner starts leaning crossover, the mall crawler crowd will still buy it and the rest of us will migrate to the Wrangler, Taco, or maybe the Bronco if it doesn't suck.

Let's just be honest, what would be the point of a crossover 4Runner if there's already the Highlander, RAV4 and half a dozen Lexuses? Won't keep Toyota from trying, tho.

 

[rushrunner]

As long as auto back window down stays, it is all good. Nothing else really matters.

 

[Gecko]

Stuff like curtain airbags, collision detection, parking sensors, etc. don't do well on a vehicle that's meant for trails.

Watching a Range Rover raise its wheels with its IRS like a dog peeing to roll over a pebble while its brakes machinegun to keep it from tipping is just cringeworthy.

If the next 4Runner has all that you listed, it won't be a 4Runner anymore and just vanish into the anonymous crossovers like the Pathfinder did.

I'm guessing if the 4Runner starts leaning crossover, the mall crawler crowd will still buy it and the rest of us will migrate to the Wrangler, Taco, or maybe the Bronco if it doesn't suck.

There's a lot of ground between being a (unibody) crossover and being a more modern (BOF) 4Runner. We can bet that things like power hatch, hybrids, turbos, more sophisticated powertrains and more safety equipment will be coming to all future Toyota BOF products. But if they came on a body-on-frame vehicle with 9" of ground clearance, true 4x4 and a strong base to modify from, we'll all find a way to make do. More importantly, I hate to say this, but it really doesn't matter that much what the enthusiast community thinks. As others have noted, Toyota knows we'll keep buying them regardless. It's the couple thousand sorority girls, young guys, retired dudes, "not a soccer mom" soccer moms who buy in the volume that Toyota cares about, and to them, all of those things make for a better product.

FWIW, there's a twin-turbo V6 + hybrid coming to the Tundra and Land Cruiser, with rumors of 450hp and 25+ MPG combined. I'd certainly welcome that in a 4Runner. What I'm more worried about is the rumor that the GR V6 is being replaced by a ~280hp 2.4L turbo 4 cylinder. A turbocharged 4 cylinder is about my least favorite engine configuration, and I don't care how much power it makes. Give me a V6 all day long. That's one change I'm not looking forward to... but again... most of the buying public thinks turbos are good and "fast" and that's who Toyota cares about.

 

[PaulB-2006 T4R]

"add some electronic bell and whistles, such as TSS (Toyota Safety Sense), BSM with RCTA, ICS with RCTB, ..."

How would the electric nannies work while off roading? I do not know, it would have to be fully defeatable or else you could get stuck.