how much lift with stock shocks?
- Thread starter delloro
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1engineer
Moderator
Two choices:
1. No lift as you run the risk of topping out the shock on rough terrain, thereby ruining the shocks.
2. Subscribe to the "Ignorance is bliss" magazine, put the spacers (any tattoo, any where, any style, any length spacers) on with stock shocks, have no worries and try not to hit the speed bumps fast at the mall lol.
1. No lift as you run the risk of topping out the shock on rough terrain, thereby ruining the shocks.
2. Subscribe to the "Ignorance is bliss" magazine, put the spacers (any tattoo, any where, any style, any length spacers) on with stock shocks, have no worries and try not to hit the speed bumps fast at the mall lol.
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WiscoTundra
New member
How tall are the spacers?
That's how tall the lift will be!
That's how tall the lift will be!
Swarty
New member
You could...But why?
It seems like both the front and rear suspension already "top out" the shock on big terrain... Not sure it makes a difference?
You've just removed travel distance I would think so for every inch you lift you lose that much travel. If you are worried about over extending the shocks you could get limit straps... But it's a rookie move
Seriously, stop being such a miser: Bilsteins 5100s all around are $400 and remove the need for front spacers(which are like $100 for no good reason). Why wouldn't you replace the shocks on the truck you want to perform at it's best? Those Bilstiens will improve all kinds of handling issues like brake drive and roll in the corners. For the same price as rear spacers you could run airbags that let you adjust your truck for your load. Your at $500 and S/H if you DIY. $300 if you just do airbags in the rear.
Yeah I get that you can get spacers for around $225 but the price to performance is miserable and the install is the same. You get a ten fold improvement in handling for twice the cash and have a truck that acts bad ass instead of simply appearing bad ass.
It seems like both the front and rear suspension already "top out" the shock on big terrain... Not sure it makes a difference?
You've just removed travel distance I would think so for every inch you lift you lose that much travel. If you are worried about over extending the shocks you could get limit straps... But it's a rookie move
Seriously, stop being such a miser: Bilsteins 5100s all around are $400 and remove the need for front spacers(which are like $100 for no good reason). Why wouldn't you replace the shocks on the truck you want to perform at it's best? Those Bilstiens will improve all kinds of handling issues like brake drive and roll in the corners. For the same price as rear spacers you could run airbags that let you adjust your truck for your load. Your at $500 and S/H if you DIY. $300 if you just do airbags in the rear.
Yeah I get that you can get spacers for around $225 but the price to performance is miserable and the install is the same. You get a ten fold improvement in handling for twice the cash and have a truck that acts bad ass instead of simply appearing bad ass.
delloro
New member
if that is true, then it does argue against spacers.
STX4Runner
New member
You could always go with something like this abomination, but it will ride like crap and you will more than likely break something.
Yikes! Brodozer Toyota?
delloro
New member
Broyota
STX4Runner
New member
Perfect! A new term has been born!
Ron4RNevada
New member
Had a 2 1/2" spring lift on my 2004 Land Rover Discovery (solid axles both ends). Drove it for 130,000 miles (about 30% off-road.
Lots of times lifting a wheel a foot off the ground crossing deep ravines. Never had any problems with the stock shocks. OEM shocks are tough; not only that but when you are doing extreme articulating you are going really, really slow. A shorter shock with taller springs also keeps your springs from unseating.
Personally I think Bilstein and other aftermarket shocks are overhyped. Those things are made for people who run things like the Baja 1000 where one is going airborne for hundreds of feet while doing 100 miles per hour and then crashing down hard.
Sometime when you have been off roading for about 150 miles on a 100 degree day, stop and feel your shock absorbers. They aren't even warm.
Longer travel shocks not needed.
Remote reservoir shocks not needed.
- Just from my experience.
- Been driving everything for over 65 years. Had to replace ONE shock in all that time - Right front wheel on a 1946 Dodge Club Coupe because I took some railroad tracks at about 80 miles an hour (blew both front tires while doing it). I've grown up some since then.
Lots of times lifting a wheel a foot off the ground crossing deep ravines. Never had any problems with the stock shocks. OEM shocks are tough; not only that but when you are doing extreme articulating you are going really, really slow. A shorter shock with taller springs also keeps your springs from unseating.
Personally I think Bilstein and other aftermarket shocks are overhyped. Those things are made for people who run things like the Baja 1000 where one is going airborne for hundreds of feet while doing 100 miles per hour and then crashing down hard.
Sometime when you have been off roading for about 150 miles on a 100 degree day, stop and feel your shock absorbers. They aren't even warm.
Longer travel shocks not needed.
Remote reservoir shocks not needed.
- Just from my experience.
- Been driving everything for over 65 years. Had to replace ONE shock in all that time - Right front wheel on a 1946 Dodge Club Coupe because I took some railroad tracks at about 80 miles an hour (blew both front tires while doing it). I've grown up some since then.
STX4Runner
New member
I'm gonna respectfully disagree about Bilstein's being overhyped. Many people on here report "clunking" noises after installing a spacer lift and driving on the street or over speed bumps, not slow speed offroad driving. It may not catastrophically damage the shock, but over time, I can't imagine it's good to overextend your shocks. For $400 or so you can have four new shocks that don't do this and give you a better ride (IMHO) than stock.
On the other hand Icon, Fox, King, etc. may not be overhyped for the right applications (heavy duty offroading, desert running, etc.), but they probably are overkill for a lot of people that run them on fire roads and mild trails. They sure would be overkill for me.
I'll have to see if you're correct about the shocks not heating up next time I'm offroading, though. I'm interested to see if that's correct.
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Ron4RNevada
New member
Just giving you all my experience is all.
You probably get more heat generated by driving down a "smooth" highway at 65 miles per hour than you ever will driving 5 miles per hours in rocks.
Think about it:
On a highway at speed your wheels are oscillating up and down at hundreds of reps per minute - and the shocks are only moving perhaps an inch - all the heat concentrated over only one inch of the shock cylinder.
Off Road you wheels and the shock travel up and down perhaps a dozen times per minute and the piston travels perhaps the full length of the cylinder (not wearing a groove in one tiny spot). And this at a very slow piston speed.
I wish I were still in engineering some times; as I would even think that off-roading would probably correct damage done to shock cylinders by burnishing the ridge produced by high speed highway driving.
Another aside: "overextending" a shock is kind of a misnomer; the shock piston can only move as far as its regular travel being stopped by the elastomer pad at the end of the cylinder.
You probably get more heat generated by driving down a "smooth" highway at 65 miles per hour than you ever will driving 5 miles per hours in rocks.
Think about it:
On a highway at speed your wheels are oscillating up and down at hundreds of reps per minute - and the shocks are only moving perhaps an inch - all the heat concentrated over only one inch of the shock cylinder.
Off Road you wheels and the shock travel up and down perhaps a dozen times per minute and the piston travels perhaps the full length of the cylinder (not wearing a groove in one tiny spot). And this at a very slow piston speed.
I wish I were still in engineering some times; as I would even think that off-roading would probably correct damage done to shock cylinders by burnishing the ridge produced by high speed highway driving.
Another aside: "overextending" a shock is kind of a misnomer; the shock piston can only move as far as its regular travel being stopped by the elastomer pad at the end of the cylinder.
If the spacers are inside the spring stack it will top out harder or more frequently against the stock shock, which is presumably bad. Top hat spacers won't affect top out, but you are still limited by how much the rest of the suspension components can move, and if you lift too much you could top out against something else that's not designed to take it, like the upper control arm joint.
Now that I think about it, top hat spacers seem like the best lift if you aren't going to do a full long travel setup. Why do people not like them?
In the front there's actually a ratio between how much length you add to the shock/spring assembly and how much the wheel is lifted because the shock attaches partway up the lower control arm. A 1/2" thick spacer might give you a 1" lift. In the rear it's 1:1.
1engineer
Moderator
Let me interject here. [MENTION=118209]Ron4RNevada[/MENTION] you know that Bilstein shocks are OEM for millions of vehicles produced worldwide right? Bilstein is an OEM supplier to most OEM vehicle manufacturers for the high and low end shocks in both passenger and truck market. You might not recognize them though because they private label many of their shocks. I would agree that the smaller boutique shops like ICON, Fox, King and others are purpose built for specific applications and require much more maintenance due to their specific designs. Bilstein 5100's are basically a grade above the OEM shocks but still are economical and require no maintenance as they are designed for a long life and then thrown away.
Shock length should be determined by suspension geometry and never be fully extended or compressed. Shocks are not designed to be a bump stop or a limit strap. If you lift your shock length should be adjusted accordingly. Same for lowering. Hope this helps.
Ron4RNevada
New member
OK, agree that Bilstein makes more than Baja type shocks. I mentioned that name generically referring to remote reservoir type shocks.
Now then - On many many of the past cars/trucks I've owned and driven the shock WAS the limiting factor on coil spring travel.
Now then - On many many of the past cars/trucks I've owned and driven the shock WAS the limiting factor on coil spring travel.
BLACK-FL4RUNNER
Member
Exactly correct.
Swarty
New member
I don't even know...
Is that some weird spacer that lifted both the spring and the shock? How did they do an alignment?
You could always go with something like this abomination, but it will ride like crap and you will more than likely break something.
Is that some weird spacer that lifted both the spring and the shock? How did they do an alignment?
Ron4RNevada
New member
Just crawled under the back end of my 4Runner (the front end is to cramped and complicated to see anything):
There is a pair of elastomer bump stops that keep the axle housing from bumping into the frame rails.
There are two radius rods that keep that enable the torque of the back wheels to push the car frame forward and keep axles aligned.
There are two more inboard short rods that probably limit some of the downward travel of the axle housing.
There is another diagonal rod that is probably called the sway bar.
There is last but not least the OEM shocks that are the final limit to down travel.
- - -
Now then if one were to put in longer springs or spacers on the ends of the springs -> ALL of that above stuff is still there and doing the same jobs. The only thing that has changed is the "resting" center point of the spring.
Now if one were to install a "long travel" suspension system, everything changes.
Now then - I am Not trying to start any arguments - Just a discussion about what a shock is really doing when one has raised a vehicle using a longer spring or a spring with a spacer. Not something more exotic.
There is a pair of elastomer bump stops that keep the axle housing from bumping into the frame rails.
There are two radius rods that keep that enable the torque of the back wheels to push the car frame forward and keep axles aligned.
There are two more inboard short rods that probably limit some of the downward travel of the axle housing.
There is another diagonal rod that is probably called the sway bar.
There is last but not least the OEM shocks that are the final limit to down travel.
- - -
Now then if one were to put in longer springs or spacers on the ends of the springs -> ALL of that above stuff is still there and doing the same jobs. The only thing that has changed is the "resting" center point of the spring.
Now if one were to install a "long travel" suspension system, everything changes.
Now then - I am Not trying to start any arguments - Just a discussion about what a shock is really doing when one has raised a vehicle using a longer spring or a spring with a spacer. Not something more exotic.
Air bags add lift?
Ron4RNevada
New member
One more explanatory document. In Toyota's infinite wisdom they have kept me in the dark as to access to their repair manuals; so here is one page out of my 1600 page Land Rover Repair Manual (on disc):
As you can see I have crossed out a couple of components that Land Rover sells as an option that is probably equivalent to Toyota's X-Reas.
Items 1 and 6 = The coil springs - These will actually fall out of the car if one removes the shocks (dampers0
Items 2 and 7 = The dampers - limits down travel and absorbs shock.
Items 9 and 13 = Radius arms - keeps thing longitudinally aligned and transfers wheel push to trucks frame.
Item 3 = Watts linkage - prevents side to side movement. Does not limit down travel unless the shocks are removed.
ON THE LAND ROVER the ONLY thing I had to do to install longer springs was to temporarily disconnect the shocks so that I could jack the frame up high enough to let the springs fall out.
Also on the Land Rovers for those guys who did install longer shocks in order to increase their 11 inches of articulation to 14 inches; they had to install cones inside the springs so that they wouldn't fall out.
Everyone's OEM shocks lasted longer than the antique Buick V8 did.
FYI - SLS = Self leveling system - Air bags replace coil springs.
As you can see I have crossed out a couple of components that Land Rover sells as an option that is probably equivalent to Toyota's X-Reas.
Items 1 and 6 = The coil springs - These will actually fall out of the car if one removes the shocks (dampers0
Items 2 and 7 = The dampers - limits down travel and absorbs shock.
Items 9 and 13 = Radius arms - keeps thing longitudinally aligned and transfers wheel push to trucks frame.
Item 3 = Watts linkage - prevents side to side movement. Does not limit down travel unless the shocks are removed.
ON THE LAND ROVER the ONLY thing I had to do to install longer springs was to temporarily disconnect the shocks so that I could jack the frame up high enough to let the springs fall out.
Also on the Land Rovers for those guys who did install longer shocks in order to increase their 11 inches of articulation to 14 inches; they had to install cones inside the springs so that they wouldn't fall out.
Everyone's OEM shocks lasted longer than the antique Buick V8 did.
FYI - SLS = Self leveling system - Air bags replace coil springs.
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