Is Toyota failing to adapt to what customers want?

[Porqupine82]

I want to preface this With the warning this will probably upset some diehard Toyota fans but I want to give my opinion on the current market, my first hand knowledge of what I am hearing and what Toyota can do to keep sales strong.

With Ford announcing the release of the Ranger as well as a diesel option and Chevy following suit with their ZR2 Colorado, I feel that Toyota needs to seriously look at what they plan to offer to retain their non-brand loyal customers. I feel that the younger (18 to 30) year old vehicle buyers are not the same type customers that were buying new vehicles 10 years ago. Brand loyalty is a thing of the past. McDonalds has confirmed this, as well as Windows and several other big names have said that today's consumers are not loyal to one certain name. They are looking for the best product at the cheapest price.

Bring in Toyota. They released the 3rd generation Tacoma with the 3.5L v6. This truck produces just shy of 300hp. I want to speak specifically of their flagship model, the TRD Pro. This model has a MSRP of $41,000. This truck has the same powerplant as the other models, and a slightly beefier suspension offering by Bilstein. This package charges thousands over the TRD yet offers a suspension package you can purchase yourself for under $600. Yes there are some other unnecessary upgrades included, but I digress.

Other truck makers are designing vehicles with truly high horsepower, exceeding over 450 in the Raptor with a 10 speed transmission, and a estimated 440ft/lb in their upcoming ranger raptor. These numbers are nothing to scoff at. Before it's said, Yes, I know that the raptor is a tier up from the Tacoma and it's a niche market, not to mention a full size truck, but Toyota also has the Tundra, which has the same Pro offering for $44k and only 381 hp. These trucks are not even comparable in power, aesthetics, or technology.

Toyota is riding on the coattails of their reputation of reliability, but I feel the upcoming customers will not be so receptive to this reputation. For a modern day vehicle reaching 200,000 miles isn't uncommon, and most modern vehicles will serve their owners for years without issue. For today, Toyota sales are strong (stronger than they've ever been, in fact) but I feel this will soon come to an end if they dont start producing high horsepower, exciting vehicles to pacify a new customer base. The 3rd gen Tacoma's are plagued with transmission issues, sluggish acceleration, and albeit subjective, boring looks.

I love Toyota, and use mine hard. I want their success to continue but I feel they're being the hare in the race and the tortoise is creeping up on them. If they don't begin to notice market trends now, they'll become the next nissan of the truck world: Irrelevant and anemic. A plastic snorkel upgrade isn't worth the $41k price tag, and the truck market is stronger than ever. What do you think Toyota do?

Toyota sales for the Tacoma in 2017 topped 198,000. I believe they will be severely hit by the ranger release this year, possibly by 30k units or more.

 

[LandCruiser]

I want a base model 4x4 with an SFA that has little or no luxury features for less than 45k.

So I'm going to go with "yes."

 

[wadle5]

Seems like an oversimplification, but I’ll bite.
“Consumers have no loyalty and will go wherever they can get the most for the cheapest.”
That in itself is what causes the disloyalty. They purchase something with bells and whistles, its shits the bed and have reoccurring issues, so they go elsewhere to get “More stuff” for the same or cheaper price. I would argue there is brand loyalty. You admitted in your first sentence about die hard Toyota fans. They are this way because I believe they have shopped around been burned, been left stranded, and realized in the end that the heated/cooled seats and giant touchscreen interface with multiple modes etc are just that things. They are also things that are more likely to break. Toyota while everyone knows and it what they get bashed for and also commended for is that they are NOT laden with creature comforts in the cabin(rotary temp controls NOT touchscreen). They are reliable and less likely to break. The engine is anemic...compared to what? A diesel sure! But diesel upkeep is also significantly more as is maintenance compared to a gasser. Daily driving the truck and weekend warrior the v6 is fine. Is it a rocket ship, no, but again 300hp for a small truck is good for 98% application of the population. So while I agree and acknowledge that Toyota doesn’t have bells and whistles and has a higher price point, what you are paying for is longevity minimal maintenance outside oil changes/brakes/tires, and of course resale. The Ranger and ZR2 are the latest version of bro dozers or mini raptors and will be left with the Wranglers on 35s at the mall.

 

[gm350reratliff]

Toyota is giving people what they want, in terms of 4-door cars that get good mpg. They do seem a little out of touch on the truck/SUV side of things. I think reliability goes farther than you think. I know I came to Toyota after having a GM car that was a POS and also working on some of them. Our 2008 4runner has been great so we bought a new 5th gen in 2014 and it’s been great. I almost purchased a new 2012 tundra but it was just missing a few things that the big 3 had so I purchased a brand new f150. I learned the hard way (again) that all those fancy bells and whistles don’t mean anything if they don’t work. With only 45k on the odometer, that f150 was needing some serious repairs including a new engine and was just so unreliable I couldn’t even take it to work anymore. I ended up trading it for our 5th gen and was happy to get out from under it. This time when I needed another truck, I went with the tundra even though it lacks a few features that the big 3 offer just because I need something that I feel will be more reliable. So far I’m very happy with it. Surprisingly, I get the same mpg with the tundra that my ecoboost got (I could never get those lofty mpg numbers ford promised me no matter how hard I tried).

I know quite a few folks that have jumped on the Toyota bandwagon just because they have also had issues with another brand of vehicle and now they just want something reliable.

At one time I drove a diesel pickup and it was good, not the most reliable truck but it towed amazing. That was before the EPA really stepped in and mandated all the emissions crap. I wouldn’t want a diesel pickup now unless I towed heavy 95% or more of the time. Everyone I know with a newer generation diesel pickup has had problems related to the emissions systems, especially when they are just slowly cruising off-road. No thanks.

Really Toyota just needs to add a few features here and there and they will be back in the game. Oh yeah, they also need to ditch that anemic 3.5 in the Tacoma or completely re-map the throttle/trans tuning and maybe add a little boost.

 

[quicksandTRDPRO]

As has been mentioned, latest tech, bells and whistles at some point will get everyone to bite, but reliability usually wins out in the end. Toyota doesn't become the giant it is without putting reliability over the flashy stuff.

 

[4Runner4RN]

My husband and I just bought our 5th and 6th Toyota trucks. We came BACK to Toyota after having a Dodge, a Volvo, a Mini, and a Ford after our first few Toyota’s. We wanted reliable and simple.



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[TacoRunn0517]

I think that, from time to time, we forget that Toyota caters to a global market not just the the North American taste. As a child of African immigrants, Toyota's reputation of reliability was/is well known and appreciated by our families and many other families with similar backstories. Growing up, I was one of 3 boys who played ice hockey (my sister played soccer). Anyone who is involved in hockey knows the toll the sport can take on a vehicle. After going through multiple American (mainly GM) vehicles, that all had various issues, my dad decided to go foreign. American vehicles were more affordable upfront but always seemed to cost more in the end with shop time/repairs. Reliability became priority and that's why he bought 2005 Tacoma Double Cab. 13 years and about 200K miles later, he still has that same truck. For myself, I've stayed involved in hockey in multiple facets. Needless to say, I do a lot of driving. For me, reliability will always be #1. Is that the same for everyone? Of course not. I can see why (and agree at times) when some says "Dude. Your 4Runner is somewhat boring." I can live with that as long as it ages the same way my dad's Taco has. I can live without Apple Carplay and BSM and 37-speed trannies as long as my 4Runner gets me from work to home and every rink known to mankind haha.

 

[mscot]

Another one of these threads, huh?


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[swva]

I think [MENTION=135392]Porqupine82[/MENTION] makes some good points in the original post. I have thought about this before. I think Toyota makes the most reliable vehicles out there as a whole but I do wish sometimes they were more willing to take some risks on some of the vehicles they release.

It's hard to argue with what they are doing though. The current generation Tundra really hasn't changed any since it was released back in 2007 but I see more new Tundras on the road now than ever. The same thing goes for the 4runner, we will be at 9 years on the current generation next year and I'm seeing them everywhere now and their sales numbers have trended upwards every year I believe.

No one really gets excited about Toyota vehicles. They buy them for dependability and reliability. But what if Toyota did start releasing some vehicles that folks got excited about? Their sales could be that much better.

Ford seems to be really pushing the envelope with some of their new releases the last few years. I would like to see Toyota do some of this. When the new Bronco releases there is no doubt in my mind it will hurt 4runner sales unless Toyota brings a really good offering to the plate in the 6th generation 4runner. Ford says they are taking the fight to the Wrangler. Toyota could have legitimately done this as well with the FJ if they weren't so conservative with it. Now look at where the FJ has ended up.

The next generation Ranger will also cut into Tacoma sales.

I think there are some good points made in the original post and some good talking points were brought up.

 

[Decipher]

OP, your argument is sad.

You base your concern solely off of horsepower numbers. That may be what YOU are looking at, but so much more goes into a purchase. It doesn’t excite you on paper but I have a hard time believing that HP is the primary driver of purchase choice when everyone I know with a pickup drives a Dodge Ram and not a single guy I know owns a Raptor. Anyone who wants to buy a truck to use as a truck doesn’t buy a raptor.

Toyota has dialed up the car market with (finally) good styling and good numbers in terms of gas and performance.

Sorry but your argument is weak and out of touch with everything people consider when buying a truck. Much more goes into the purchase than HP.

And for God’s sake, the car market is always about chasing what’s new. Toyota isn’t going anywhere and their global sales confirm this.


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[Porqupine82]

OP, your argument is sad.

You base your concern solely off of horsepower numbers. That may be what YOU are looking at, but so much more goes into a purchase. It doesn’t excite you on paper but I have a hard time believing that HP is the primary driver of purchase choice when everyone I know with a pickup drives a Dodge Ram and not a single guy I know owns a Raptor. Anyone who wants to buy a truck to use as a truck doesn’t buy a raptor.

Toyota has dialed up the car market with (finally) good styling and good numbers in terms of gas and performance.

Sorry but your argument is weak and out of touch with everything people consider when buying a truck. Much more goes into the purchase than HP.

And for God’s sake, the car market is always about chasing what’s new. Toyota isn’t going anywhere and their global sales confirm this.


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Well I'm sorry to have insulted you, which is obvious by the way you're speaking to me. I spoke about Toyotas lack of horsepower, and then you proceeded to tell me that people search for so much more than just horsepower when buying a truck. I agree, I believe that people search for several things such as Creature Comforts, technology, aesthetic styling, horsepower, reliability as well as several more factors.. Currently Toyota offers 1 of these: Reliability, and even that is debatable based on the track record of the 3rd gen Tacomas which are plagued with transmission issues.

If you go read my original post, you will see that I was commenting solely on the off-road capability of their Flagship vehicles, which are marketed as off-road ready. Nowhere did I mention needing a truck to use as a truck. I simply want automakers who marketed vehicle as off-road ready, to make the vehicle off-road ready. Aesthetics, a badge, and a Bilstein lift do not make a truck off-road ready. Now if you are finished being rude, I will continue to pay attention to everyone else's comments who have all been civil and respectful.

 

[Inv4drZm]

I really hope someone doesn't think they could buy a $41,000 Tacoma and expect to outwheel my <$20k 14 year old 4Runner.

I'm okay with Toyota not pushing the envelope (A solid front axle would be cool but not necessary), and I could care less about the tech and amenities. I know the aftermarket offroad goodies will follow every model. More HP would be nice, but not at the expense of reliability/ maintenance costs, and you are more limited in towing capacity by the weight of the vehicle more than anything so more HP won't increase capabilities at all just makes it more fun in a straight line.

 

[T4R2014]

I think Tacoma owners are failing to adapt to what a customer should want because they keep buying these crappy trucks.

 

[LandCruiser]

I really hope someone doesn't think they could buy a $41,000 Tacoma and expect to outwheel my <$20k 14 year old 4Runner.

I'm okay with Toyota not pushing the envelope (A solid front axle would be cool but not necessary), and I could care less about the tech and amenities. I know the aftermarket offroad goodies will follow every model. More HP would be nice, but not at the expense of reliability/ maintenance costs, and you are more limited in towing capacity by the weight of the vehicle more than anything so more HP won't increase capabilities at all just makes it more fun in a straight line.

Jeep realizes that there is a market for trucks with off road potential and no amenities. I can get a SWB SFA Wrangler with MT with bare bones interior.

Toyota is a global 4x4 manufacturer that can build and does build bare bones 4x4 SFA vehicles and bringing one over to the US, or even building one here would be no skin for them.

They already make V8 Land Cruisers, diesel trucks, and Prados with more horsepower than the 4Runner.

I owned a GXL 70 series wagon and I loved it. I would buy one tomorrow. Cash. I'm not even shitting. I'd even get one with a V6 petrol engine. I'd also buy a bare stock Prado 3 door or 5 door, not the blinged out monstrosity that is the GX.

I hate the Tacoma. It's overpriced and badly made and engineered. No one can tell me with a straight face that I'm to pay 35-45k for something with drum brakes and an engine and transmission that Toyota designed for efficiency and launched without thoroughly testing them.

They they make a bunch of cars and crossovers that all look alike and seem to have been designed to commute in CA traffic. I couldn't tell a Camry apart from a Altima or Maxima.

I guess Toyota has decided that its car and crossover customers are more important than its 4x4 customers (Ford and FCA don't seem to think so) and that we'll be happy with new shocks, a snorkel, and some TRD stickers.

And all I keep hearing from Toyota is "we won't sell them here because they don't do well in the market" and yet they still sell the Scion shitboxes as Toyotas, Lexus Camrys, and lots of other dismal vehicles no one is too interested in and don't seem to want to cut those off.

Whatever. I'm certain that they couldn't care less about my money or my loyalty. And the people who keep harping on about beating their rusted ass Toyota to 500k miles are the ones who sell it for one just like it but newer after 2-3 years.

 

[Muzzle of Bees]

Some people know not to follow the "what do people want crowd". That group is usually the least intelligent of our species. I don't equate intelligence with knowing how to use snap chat or facebook or whatever crap is being fed to us necessary to be with the "in crowd".
Toyota probably just laughs at the people that continue to produce that crap and integrate it into a really unreliable piece of shit.
I like my Toyota because it is simple and it works.

 

[2016 4Runner SR5]

I think Tacoma owners are failing to adapt to what a customer should want because they keep buying these crappy trucks.

Couldn't agree more. I have always liked the Tacoma and in 2016 when I went shopping for a new truck, it was my #1 pick. Well 3500 miles later, I sold it back to the dealer and bought a brand new 2016 4Runner. I would buy another Tacoma tomorrow but nothing newer than 2015. The 3.5 with the 6 speed auto is total trash and IMO killed the Tacoma for me. I absolutely love my 2016 4R however I do wish it was still offered with a V8. Diesel to me is a waste, pointless. Lets hope they offer a V8 option in the 6th gen, that's the only way i'd even consider giving up my 5th gen.

 

[Sparman]

I am in the market for a new 4Runner, and that is what I will buy. However, I really liked the idea of a truck and the "new" Tacoma was compelling - until I sat in it. The seating position as well as the feel/look/quality of the interior killed it for me. This BEFORE I knew anything about the negative feedback regarding the engine/trans combo.

I did sit in a Colorado ZR2 Diesel, and really liked it. The seats were awesome. The interior was really nice. It was a far better experience than the Tacoma. For a split-second, I was actually considering one. That is until I visited an owner's forum and guys were discussion phantom electrical problems, issues with the diesel regen system, issues with the infotainment system.........and top that all off with the urea injection and filter systems that modern diesels are required to have - no thanks.

Then I remembered why I choose Toyota. They are well made, reliable as hell, hold their value better than anything else, and in the case of the 4Runner, still relatively simple and basic - which at the end of the day IS really what I want.

 

[delgadtn]

I suppose I am one of those people who has no brand loyalty as I have owned a Ford Bronco II, Jeep XJ, Jeep XJ, Colorado Z71, and I purchased a 5th gen 4Runner 4 months ago. I had a 2015 Colorado Z71 for 67,000 miles before I sold it. I can not speak to the diesel version as I owned the gasser however, I absolutely loved that truck. I loved the seats, the ride, and the interior features. I did not have a single issue mechanically or with the infotainment system of the vehicle. And, honestly, the interior and infotainment system is significantly more refined than the 5th gen. There were legit conciliations with moving to the 5th gen platform. Why then did I sell it and move to a 5th gen? Basically my needs and expectations for the vehicle changed. I have an off road tear drop in the works and wanted to do more overland traveling with my family as a way to bond with my son and introduce him to the outdoors. I seriously considered a ZR2 and was very close to putting in an offer. However, as I compared the ZR2 and the 4Runner I really considered my needs and expectations for the vehicle. I really did not have a use for an uncovered pick-up bed and the first thing I would have done with the ZR2 was put a cap on it. However, what really swayed me away from the ZR2 was the lack of aftermarket support, limited ability to lift the ZR2 with it’s multimatic suspension, the better angles on the 5th gen, and the fact that I didn’t like the rear shock mounting locations on the ZR2 (more centered and lowest point). Given that I was changing vehicles mostly to gain better off road capability, the 5th gen was the better vehicle for me. I don’t really think that is the case though for the average buyer of the ZR2 or gasp, the 5th Gen TRD pro/off-road. I think for the average buyer of the Tacoma, Colorado, and 4Runner those little details don’t matter as much. I think customers want aesthetics, comfort, MPGs, re-sale, and longevity. I am not going to argue re-sale and longevity as the 4Runner and Tacoma have well proven themselves from that standpoint. However, I think as the Colorado continues to prove itself in those areas (speaking of the gasoline version) it will gain more and more credibility in the aftermarket world. Again, I love my 4Runner and I am having fun building the snot out of it. I just don’t think that’s the plan for the average consumer.

-T-


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[UnderFire]

Another guy whining because Toyota doesn't make the most powerful, flashy, decked out trucks on the market. News flash, they never did, and they never will because they don't need to.

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[Prado]

No.. they are reading the market well

While I am also frustarated at the lack of Toyota products that meet my 'wants', the reality is Toyota is kicking ass sales wise.